Author Topic: Is a charge controller needed for a float battery?  (Read 1686 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Texas Al

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Is a charge controller needed for a float battery?
« on: May 23, 2005, 04:54:15 PM »


If we're setting up a battery for float-service with a gas or diesel generator (and eventually a windmill) do we actually need a charge controller, or will the load soak up the extra amps once the battery is fully charged?


Does a gas generator even require battery float? The only reason I'm even worrying about batteries right now is to protect the equipment from power surges, but if those are not really a problem for this setup then I just won't worry about it until we actually have windmills.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 04:54:15 PM by (unknown) »

wdyasq

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1324
questions
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2005, 11:42:06 AM »
First, where are you? And, what are you trying to achieve. I'm just curious because I live about 70 miles Southwest of Dallas and you are posting with a Texas name on the first question.  But the second question is fundamental for anyone trying to help you.


This woudl also be a good thing to stick in the Diary section.  That section is great for keeping a subject in an easy to find format.  Folks can go back through previous diary entries and start to get a handle on WTF someone is attempting and make a WAG -'wild a-- guess' at answerign such vague mutterings.  This beats the SWAG (put STUPID in front of previous acronym) that one will get anyway.


Damn Confused,

Ron

« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 11:42:06 AM by (unknown) »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

Texas Al

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: questions
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2005, 11:51:52 AM »
Our workspace is perfect for our needs except for lacking electricity. In the long run it's not a problem because that's what we're here to do. In the short run, we need to at least run a table-saw and a drill. I'm thinking of investing in some sort of diesel generator or jury rigging one from a junkyard motor, depending on which one comes out ahead in the expediency:cost equation.


But I think the question I was asking is rather independent of context-- either a) a float battery hooked up to a diesel or gas generator doesn't require a controller to prevent overcharging, or b) it does, or c) in some cases it does and in some cases it doesn't. If the answer is c), then I the question becomes what variables do I need to know in order to know which case applies. I'll go find out those variables and report back.


Finally, the whole question may be mooted if it turns out that diesel gennys reliably put out a reasonably constant current and voltage, in which case I can just plug the tools in and not worry about batteries, at least not at first.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 11:51:52 AM by (unknown) »

Texas Al

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: questions
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2005, 11:52:21 AM »
Oh yeah, and we are in San Antonio Texas.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 11:52:21 AM by (unknown) »

Texas Al

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: Is a charge controller needed for a float batt
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2005, 12:07:32 PM »
Oh, and maybe I wasn't using the correct terminology. By "float service" I meant battery in parallel with the load and the generator.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 12:07:32 PM by (unknown) »

Norm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1841
  • Country: us
  • Ohio's sharpest corner
You don't even need the batteries?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2005, 02:00:05 PM »
  Okay have you ever thought about flywheels?

In this one system I know of they had a motor/generator powered by the grid turning a

flywheel, as long as the grid power was on, the flywheel was turning at the speed of the motor,

the flywheel smoothed out any spikes, as soon as

there was even the slightest flicker of an interruption in  power from the grid, the

flywheel is instantly engaged to the standby diesel...so quickly and smoothly that even

sensitive equipment is unaffected.

  You could use a windmill as your main source

of power and a standby gas or diesel engine or

maybe even have the engine engaged continually

...as long as the windmill was providing enough

power the engine would be 'floating'using very

little fuel.

                    ( :>) Norm.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 02:00:05 PM by (unknown) »

commanda

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 731
Re: questions
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2005, 03:31:59 PM »
If you just need to run a table saw and a drill, a generator with a mains output is all you need (in the states, that's 110 volt 60 hertz). The generator has a controller attached to its throttle, so it regulates the output with varying load. I know builders use these things on building sites all the time for doing exactly what you're doing.


If you start talking batteries, you then need an inverter to convert the battery voltage back to mains voltage. And a generator with a 12 volt (or 24 volt) dc output to charge the batteries. A small motor belted to a car alternator works nice. Can be done cheaply if you can scrounge. Although the first opton can also be inexpensive and expedient; here in Oz we can buy them for a couple of hundred dollars. I'm sure stateside would be cheap if you know where to shop.


Amanda

« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 03:31:59 PM by (unknown) »

Texas Al

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: You don't even need the batteries?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2005, 05:59:27 PM »
Wind gennys and flywheels are for the medium-to-near future. Immediate future we have... a shed standing next to a field with no juice anywhere near it.


If our lives depended on it, I'm sure we would toil in the heat with hand-tools till we had wind gennys and flywheels and all that good stuff. Since our lives don't depend on it, I don't think anybody in the group (except a couple of people, me included) would be nuts enough to do that. So right off the bat I'm forced to get some kind of power source that will require minimal R&D so that we can have a fan and a powertool or two running.


Color me hypocritical but hey, at least it's going to be a diesel genny so we can try our hand at biodiesel.


That being said, flywheels are a really cool idea and definitely on the experiment queue. After we're armed with a fan and a table saw.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 05:59:27 PM by (unknown) »

Texas Al

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: questions
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2005, 06:04:40 PM »
> A small motor belted to a car alternator works nice. Can be done cheaply

> if you can scrounge. Although the first opton can also be inexpensive and

> expedient; here in Oz we can buy them for a couple of hundred dollars. I'm

> sure stateside would be cheap if you know where to shop.


Thank you for the information, that's exactly what I was looking for. From searching the web and this site, I gather that if we go the DIY route with a motor and alternator, it would also be necessary to attach a governor?


I'm surprised everyone is ordering these diesels from India and China... I'd expect more people would turn to the local automotive junk yard. Perhaps automobile diesel engines put out too many kilowatts relative to the load? What do y'all think?

« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 06:04:40 PM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
Re: You don't even need the batteries?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2005, 02:17:45 AM »
Get a small inverter and some batteries and your genny. If you buy a ready to run genny no problem, run the saw off it, charge batteries, use fan on inverter. Or build/buy a fan to run off 12V batteries and skip the inverter. The reason you want the fan running on batteries of course is you don't want to run a genny all night on those long hot nights just for a fan while you try to sleep. Otherwise you could just run the fan on the genny.


Now if your gonna build your own from a used engine and parts :)

 First get the engine setup and running good. Now take a 110VAC motor and mount it on the engine somehow and belt it to a pully with a ratio that will spin it about 10% (I think) above it's rated speed. You wire in a run capacitor across the wires (hopefully someone can tell you how to figure the value you need, I forgot). When the engine is running you will have a 110Vac genny to run your saw and stuff. Mount a GM Delco/remy Alternator (one wire type they are often called) to your engine. When you are running the genny to power your saw and stuff you are charging your batts for night time use also.

 I beleave you want a motor rated for 2-3 times your expected use. Motors are hard to start this way, so if your running a 1/2hp saw you want 1-2hp motor for a genny, 1hp saw maybe 2-3HP motor. Turn off the loads before turning off the gennie.


Or you could take an easy way out and buy an inverter big enough to run everything and just charge batteries with alternators. I would use several if your using any big auto type diesels, more power than one alternator needs, run several and make use of the power.


I think for overall cheapness I would get an inverter that will run everything needed at one time, as many batteries as I could get, cheap diesel engine and alternators.

Reason for this is you won't want to be shutting down and starting the genny every few minutes while measuring boards, laying out cuts, etc.. (all the times the saw gets turned off short periods) so the genny would be running but doing no work or just a little if running the fan and lights. Far better use of feul to run it charging batteries a short time as needed then just run everything from an inverter. This way your getting lots of work for the feul burned, but when you shut down the saw and such your not wasting anything idling. Contractors don't care, they just tack it onto the bill you pay, but your paying the bill here so you probably do care if this will be used for any amount of time!

 As for the batteries and inverter, I guess you will need them anyway later when you get the wind gennies flying :)


How many batteries do you need? That depends entirely how often you want to start the gennie to charge them really. Figure up all your amps/watts for everything your planning to run at once durring the day and how many hours. Say 8Hrs your going to be running 15 amps 120 AC, that's about 15X120=1800watts/12Vdc=150amps per hr from you batteries. Batteries last longer if not discharged to deeply, die quicker if run nearly dead very often. So how long do you want them to last and how many can you afford and how often do you want to run the gennie to charge them up?


 More batteries are better for many reasons, but you could maybe get by with 600amphrs 12V. Not alot and I would charge every other hour durring heavy use. Most the time you would not be drawing the max anyway, would saws be running constant durring the day or off most of it, lots of cutting all at once then off again for awhile? Maybe start the saw cut a couple boards, shut it off, go hammer awhile, start saw cut more, etc...

 A gennie would be running constant in most cases, batteries get to rest alot :)

« Last Edit: May 24, 2005, 02:17:45 AM by (unknown) »

commanda

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 731
Re: You don't even need the batteries?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2005, 03:19:03 AM »
I was looking at generators on ebay today. There are many with 240 volt mains output (I'm in Australia), and a second output of 12 volts, 8 amps is common. Run the generator during the day for the power tools, and the 12 volt output to charge your batteries. At night, run your cooling fan directly off the batteries. Maybe a small inverter to power a small tv or radio, etc.


Amanda

« Last Edit: May 24, 2005, 03:19:03 AM by (unknown) »

Texas Al

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: You don't even need the batteries?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2005, 10:12:42 PM »
Heh. I already figured out what to do with the excess power-- toast sticks of welding nickel or nickel-plated objects to make them into nickel-oxide. To use as electrodes in Edison cells. Maybe other useful electrochemistry projects.


But it sounds like in the short term, it's okay to power AC equipment directly off the gennie, and I can space out the battery and alternator purchases to future months.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2005, 10:12:42 PM by (unknown) »

nothing to lose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
Re: You don't even need the batteries?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2005, 02:17:31 AM »
"But it sounds like in the short term, it's okay to power AC equipment directly off the gennie,"


Yep, if you have a gennie that works like the comercail built ones, that's what they are for :)

To power things.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 02:17:31 AM by (unknown) »