Author Topic: On Rectifiers and Heat  (Read 3182 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

SamoaPower

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
On Rectifiers and Heat
« on: February 14, 2006, 01:19:41 AM »
If we're using something other than direct current (DC) generators for wind or hydro power, or if we can't use variable frequency (unlike the mains) AC directly to advantage, we have to get involved with diode rectifiers sooner or later. As soon as we start talking about batteries, inverters and such, we need DC.


Unfortunately, diodes, like many things in the real world, are less than perfect in doing their job. They have power losses that generate heat - lots of heat. This heat has to be dissipated to keep the device from destroying itself since they have a maximum internal temperature rating, usually about 125-175°C, before meltdown. More on this later. Common silicon diodes exhibit a forward voltage drop (Vf) that is dependent on the forward current (If) and temperature. We often see numbers of 0.5-0.7 volts per diode quoted for Vf while actually, it can get up to 1.2 volts (peak) for high current applications like we use. Being a little conservative (not enough) and using the commonly used 35 amp diode bridge (MB352) as an example, an If of 15 amps per diode times a Vf  of  0.95 volts = 14.25 watts per diode which results in 28.5 watts (they conduct in pairs for half the time) of heat to get rid of for the package of four diodes. Not trivial. In a 400 watt 12 volt system, that's over 7% loss, just in the rectifiers. Don't count on 35 amps being available under all conditions. The data sheet says that if you can't keep the case temperature under 55°C, you have to reduce the current. At a case temperature of 115°C, you can run only half the current. Losses explain one of the reasons why low voltage (12 V) is not often recommended for high power availability systems since more current is required for a given power level. Higher current - higher losses. Vf also requires that we use more turns of wire on our coils to achieve a given DC output voltage, which results in higher coil resistance and additional power loss. Diodes are a mixed blessing.


Diodes come in several flavors, each with it's own advantages. It's clear that a lower Vf is desirable and fortunately there is a diode type that has about half the Vf of  the common type. The Schottky diode is available in ratings suitable for our needs but as usual, there's no free lunch. They cost a bit more and are somewhat limited in their reverse voltage rating and have higher reverse current. They're suitable for 12 and 24 volt systems but for 48 volts and above you have fewer choices. They come as single units and also as dual units with their cathodes tied together internally. You should be able to run these duals in parallel, if desired, with excellent current sharing. Schottkys are available in a wide variety of package types to suit many mounting configurations. Unfortunately, I haven't yet found a nicely packaged four-diode bridge (or even better, a six-diode three-phase bridge) with suitable ratings so we have to use multiple units. I don't understand why they're not commonly available. So, with a diode type that can cut our rectifier losses in half, reduce the amount of heat sink required, and reduce our stator losses, why aren't they being used by everyone? They aren't that much more expensive so it's a mystery to me. I've been using them for quite some time and haven't found any serious disadvantages.


Can we do even better than Schottkys? Sure, it's called synchronous rectification (SR) and doesn't use diodes at all. Instead, high power FETs are used as switches and are synchronized to the AC waveform to turn on and off at the appropriate times to achieve rectification. The adventure into SR isn't for the faint-hearted. It's significantly more complex and requires a fair bit of electronics but oh boy, what a payoff. With current-day FETs the losses are reduced to next to nothing. Heat sink requirements are minimal - a few square inches of aluminum takes care of it. I'm still working on a prototype and it looks promising. I suspect that before long, when more commercial SR modules are available, that we'll all be using them.


Now, let's attack the thermal problem. The heat generated in a diode is right at the internal semiconductor junction, a quite small area. Our job is to transfer that quantity of heat to the ambient air to be dissipated without exceeding the maximum temperature rating of the junction. If we don't - meltdown! Be careful in assuming what this limit is. Various manufacturers of the same part number have different ratings. In checking this rating for a number of different MB352 35 amp bridge rectifiers, I found maximum junction temperature ratings ranging from 125 to 175°C - a 50°C spread. Check the data sheet! And while you're at it, look for the thermal resistance from the junction to the case. Of the half dozen or so checked, I could only find it on two and they were different. Thermal resistance is specified in units of °C/Watt and for the MB352 is 2.2 to 2.5 °C/W. What this means is that for each watt of heat we move from one end (the junction) of this thermal resistance path to the other end (outside case surface), we will have a temperature differential of about 2.3°C at the two ends. You do remember the difference between heat and temperature, don't you?


To refresh your high school physics, there are three ways to move a quantity of heat from one place to another - by electromagnetic radiation, by conduction through a solid or by convection via a moving fluid (air is also a fluid). We will mainly be concerned with the last two. The device internal path from the junction to the outside case is through solids so the method is conduction. To continue the process, we mount the case on a heat sink via an interface that's also solid - more conduction. Then there's conduction through the heat sink itself and finally, the heat sink surface area is exposed to the ambient air so the final transfer is convective although, there is also radiation at this point, particularly if you paint it flat black. In our imperfect real world, each time we make a transition we incur additional thermal loss represented by more thermal resistances. We end up with three major ones to consider - the already mentioned junction to case, the case to heat sink and the heat sink to air. These are effectively all in series and determine the final result.


The formula for junction temperature (Tj) is:  Tj = Pd(Rj-c + Rc-s + Rs-a) + Ta, where Pd is the heat to be transferred in watts, Rx-y are the three thermal resistances and Ta is the ambient air temperature in °C. For an example of Pd = 25 watts, Rj-c = 2.3, Rc-s = 0.3, Rs-a = 2.0 and Ta = 25°C:  Tj = 140°C, uncomfortably close to the limit. If we had a hot day, it could push it over. But wait, we have another consideration. The data sheet says that if we have a case temperature of greater than 55°C, we have to derate the current. Using this example, the case temperature works out to 82°C (140 - (25 x 2.3)) which means we have to limit our output current to about 28 amps. Personally, I would never run a MB352 under these conditions. So, when is a 35 amp bridge NOT a 35 amp bridge? The answer is often, if we don't do it right.


If we want reliability, being conservative is the answer. Don't push components (particularly semiconductors) to their max ratings. Use more heat sink than you think you need. My personal rules-of-thumb for power devices are to limit expected operation to 50% of the ratings. I haven't replaced very many over the years.


Of course, this is far from an exhaustive treatment of the topic. I'm sure some of you are asking things like "how much heat sink should I use?", etc. ON Semiconductor has an excellent manual available online that really covers it all from the basic physics on up. The Rectifier Applications Handbook, HB214/D at 272 pages (1.9mb) is in .pdf.


http://onsemi.com


Stay cool!

« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 01:19:41 AM by (unknown) »

willib

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2414
  • Country: us
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2006, 08:39:17 PM »
What do you drive your Fets in your SR with ?

or ar you trying a self driving technique?

Fets would be the perfect choice if they didnt have that pesky body diode

i do really like super low ( several milli ohms) 'on resistance ' of some Fets ..


last july i was toying with this , and simulated it with switcher cad

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2965/Fet_rect.GIF 48KB

.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 08:39:17 PM by (unknown) »
Carpe Ventum (Seize the Wind)

coldspot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
  • Country: us
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2006, 08:41:53 PM »
Great Post!

Really enjoyed reading it.


"they're not commonly available"


Can't we find one in about every computer power supply?

« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 08:41:53 PM by (unknown) »
$0.02

terry5732

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 283
  • Country: us
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2006, 10:29:22 PM »
It's not really the voltage drop causing the heat but rather the cycling of the junction. A rectifier / diode doesn't heat when passing DC. Umpteen phase generators have umpteen cycles. These cause heating problems. Consider the rectifiers of a large battery charger running on 120VAC. They don't run that hot. I've run the same rectifiers with only 12 Volts at 1 Amp and got them to smoke - I was running about 2.5 kH. A generator turning at 250 RPM with 5 phases is getting about those cycles. I really don't see much good in all the 3 and 5 and more phase plans. Yes they will reduce low speed cogging, but it is at cost. I don't think it is worth the cost. The ONLY way you gain power by more phases is by having more coils. You can get more power from less phases with better coils.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 10:29:22 PM by (unknown) »

dinges

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1294
  • Country: nl
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2006, 11:50:35 PM »
Diodes can get very hot just passing DC...


Peter.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 11:50:35 PM by (unknown) »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

SamoaPower

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2006, 12:10:07 AM »
Thanks for your interest willib. The current version is self driven - sort of. A comparator is used to sense the drain to source polarity. This in turn drives a complimentary emitter follower to get the necessary low impedance to drive the gate capacitance. The additional voltage needed to drive the gate is obtained from a bootstrapped supply.


Yes, aren't these newer FETs great! The body diode in this application isn't much of an issue since the FET is run in the third quadrant, i.e. backwards. Current flow, when enhanced, is from source to drain (N channel) effectively bypassing the body diode with Rdson - very little conduction in the body diode. There's a little because of switching delays.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 12:10:07 AM by (unknown) »

SamoaPower

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2006, 12:12:35 AM »
Agreed
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 12:12:35 AM by (unknown) »

SamoaPower

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2006, 12:28:34 AM »
Gee, coldspot, you may be right. I haven't disected one in quite a few years. The older ones I looked at used the usual silicon. Sure couldn't find them from a number of manufacturers.


Thanks for the input.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 12:28:34 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2006, 01:17:13 AM »
Lot of good points, one thing that may be worth adding is that most of those single phase rectifiers are rated for resistive or inductive load and although not easy to find there is usually a significant derating for capacitive load, which is effectively what a battery is.


The single phase bridge is cheap and convenient but it is mainly cheap because of the limitations you state, it is nearly impossible to get near the full rating reliably without heatsinks that cost more than expensive diodes.


Schottky seems fine for 12v, I have used them but once you pick ones with piv above 15v the forward drop starts to rise significantly. I don't think there is any gain at 24v.


They are only cost effective in the TO220 package which I regard as an abomination, if you buy ones in a sensible package they cost the earth, they are designed for the switchmode power supply market and there is no demand to produce nice ones for us. Reverse leakage and danger of open circuit on the dc side killing them because the voltage ratings are marginal may be reasons for most people not using them.


Again synchronus rectification is a product of switchmode power supplies where it is easy with externally timed square waves, as you say it's messy with a 3 phase bridge and the switchmode market is not going to provide us with the answer. IR's venture into it for the car alternator market is more promising, in a few years we will be able to collect them from scrap car alternators if they keep on with that approach and don't go down the force commutation route which they will probably be forced to do unless they adopt a new alternator with seriously less leakage reactance than the present claw rotor design.

Flux

« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 01:17:13 AM by (unknown) »

jimovonz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 339
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2006, 02:08:13 AM »
Any chance of a schematic?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 02:08:13 AM by (unknown) »

BigBreaker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2006, 08:23:36 AM »
SR doesn't solve the problem of back flow from batteries.  Accomplishing that takes more control logic.  Synchronizing the switching of the FETs shouldn't be too hard since you can trigger off the physical location of the rotor.  A stock optical encoder should be all you need to switch the FETs.  Having the encoder address a ROM can give you even more control of the switching.


Also as long as you are doing SR you might as well throw in a cap, an inductor and some more logic for a switch mode voltage/frequency/phase converter and power 120VAC directly, along side the inverter or in preference.  That would be quite a feat!

« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 08:23:36 AM by (unknown) »

finnsawyer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1565
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2006, 09:00:50 AM »
What about the rectifiers used in automotive alternators?  Rated 60 to 100 amps at 12 volts over some frequency range, reverse breakdown in excess of 120 volts (in my experience), and available in nice six diode packs for three phase.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 09:00:50 AM by (unknown) »

SamoaPower

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2006, 12:46:06 PM »
Many thanks Flux. It's nice to see other thoughts.


You're right, of course, about the battery not being a pure resistive load. However, it's not just a capacitor either. There have been numerous models developed for the lead acid battery, both electrochemical and straight electrical and even though they differ, you can still say it's complex. Your point is still well taken. One MB352 mfgr says to derate by 20% for capacitive loads. I would guess something in between would be appropriate.


Your comment about Schottky makes me think that perhaps you haven't taken a look lately. For one example among many, take the IR 40CPQ060. It's 40 amps, 60 volts, Vf 0.53V @ 20A in a TO-247 case of 0.63°C/W and Digi-Key sells it for $1.73 (quan 10). Should be fine in a 24V system at about half the loss.


I agree the TO-220 has shortcomings but I still use them. As many know, you're mainly paying for the package - the die is cheap. Do you like the D61-8 package (still pricey)?


Your concern about open circuit voltage is certainly valid. Anyone for a crowbar?


I still think SR is the thing to come. The problems will be solved.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 12:46:06 PM by (unknown) »

SamoaPower

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2006, 01:01:56 PM »
Sure it does - if you run the FETs in the third quadrant. Simple, no additional circuitry needed. If you run them in the first quadrant, the body diode conduction allows reverse current flow.


I did think about combining SR with a PWM load controller. Looks doable.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 01:01:56 PM by (unknown) »

SamoaPower

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2006, 01:08:01 PM »
To the best of my knowledge, they're still using garden variety silicon with the attendant losses. Nice package though.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 01:08:01 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

  • Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 8059
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2006, 03:20:45 PM »
A crowbar crowing will let the mill overspeed.


I have a couple uses for a self-powered crowbar bypass 'do-hicky'. Meaning if the crowbar crows, the input is shorted. Good for shorting a windmill too. If anyone has a simple idea...

G-

« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 03:20:45 PM by (unknown) »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

SamoaPower

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2006, 05:48:29 PM »
Sorry ghurd, can't agree. By definition, a crowbar shorts the source to protect the downstream elements and usually opens a breaker. Just leave out the breaker. Isn't this what you want? A latching relay comes to mind but I'm sure there are better ways.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 05:48:29 PM by (unknown) »

Old F

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2006, 05:43:02 AM »
Comparing them to the selenium rectifiers they replaced and  vacuum  tubes that they replaced.

Boy I am showing my age  ; )   We are getting a lot of bang for are buck.


I agree it never hurts to over rate that is if you will see 10 amps put in a 20 amp.


Has any one look in to broad band transformers for  impedance load matching.


Thro at these low frequencies they may not be practical.


Old F

« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 05:43:02 AM by (unknown) »
Having so much fun it should be illegal

Shadow

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 473
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2006, 07:44:55 AM »
Interesting topic, I feel smarter just reading it even if I dont understand it.I've often wondered what happens in the case of a wind turbine, what happens when one or all rectifiers fail? Is AC current going directly into the battery bank?Or will wires short before that happens?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 07:44:55 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 6275
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2006, 08:13:24 AM »
Shadow

Anything can happen, it depends what fails.


If one diode open circuits then you will get a slightly reduced performance and may never notice it. If one fails to short circuit then you will instantly notice a serious loss in performance and you may at first think you have stall. Running in high wind will most likely fry one phase of the stator.


A pair of shorted diodes in one string will produce a dc short. If you have a fuse it will likely take it out and leave the mill shorted as if the brake switch is on.


If there is no fuse or if it is bigger than the diode connections can handle you will most likely blow one diode open circuit clearing the battery current but leaving the mill stalled.


The other possible case is two shorted diodes one in the positive line and one in the negative but not in the same string. This could leave you with dc feeding one phase of the winding ( will burn 2 phases in star).


In general diodes fail to short circuit and if you find one open it may have failed to short initially and been blown open. Those that fail to open circuit usually die from repeated thermal stress and the internal contact fails, some types and manufacturers were prone to this ( early Lucas car alternator bridges were notorious)

Flux

« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 08:13:24 AM by (unknown) »

ghurd

  • Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 8059
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2006, 08:43:03 AM »
The crow bar diode and fuse in this guys 1st diagram is how I usually see and use them.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/MyDCC.html


I would be interested in a link showing what you mean, because it is what I want.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 08:43:03 AM by (unknown) »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

SamoaPower

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2006, 03:20:35 PM »
Forget what I said about a latching relay - archaic, spur-of-the-moment thinking, it would be much too slow to protect semiconductors.


Actually, the comment to Flux about a crowbar was half in jest. Now, you've got me thinking more about protection schemes. You ask for a link but the only one I have is in my head. I think I smell a potential topic for another long-winded post.


The drive circuitry for a crowbar can be designed to detect any or many kinds of faults you wish to protect against. The one in your link example only protects against reversed polarity of a DC source. Worth doing, by the way. Who among us hasn't reversed a pair of wires at some time or another? Over-voltage, over-current or over-speed detection at various points in a system can be used to advantage. Failure mode analysis, as Flux points out in his comment on rectifier failure, can be an interesting and practical facet of a system design.


For our wind generators, I think something using SCRs or Triacs as the crowbar along with appropriate drive circuitry would be feasible. I don't think I can answer your need for a simple, one or two component, self-powered version. Flexibility and versatility usually require complexity.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 03:20:35 PM by (unknown) »

SamoaPower

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2006, 03:44:38 PM »
Aah Old F, you bring back some memories. Who can forget the pungent smell of a failed selenium rectifier? Or the eerie blue glow of mercury-vapor tube rectifiers in a dark room? A time long past.


I think you're right, the amount of iron needed in transformers for these frequencies would rule them out.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 03:44:38 PM by (unknown) »

BigBreaker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2006, 12:51:06 PM »
Yup, PWM with a little cap/inductor clean up.  I don't normally think of operating FETs in the way you describe so I'll have to take your word for it.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 12:51:06 PM by (unknown) »

Argie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: On Rectifiers and Heat
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2006, 11:30:15 PM »
>>>>>Then there's conduction through the heat sink itself and finally, the heat sink surface area is exposed to the ambient air so the final transfer is convective although, there is also radiation at this point, particularly if you paint it flat black.<<<<


But that cooling advantage when painting it black is negated if you keep that heat-sink in total darkness, right?  :)

« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 11:30:15 PM by (unknown) »