Author Topic: 3 phase generator help  (Read 4883 times)

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phil b

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3 phase generator help
« on: July 03, 2006, 08:24:47 PM »
I have a Kohler 15RMY62 208V 3 phase 15 KW generator that is producing 30 VAC (rms) at 1800 rpm.


The original diode showed a short between AC/DC sides and brushes have been replaced.


I disconnected the field windings from each other and they are 0.9 ohms each. The wiring has no visible signs of burning or discoloration.


I flashed the 4 pole wound rotor with a 12VDC battery thru the brushes when it was not running. No change.


Next, I added a heavy 13 ohm nichrome resistor load between one phase and the neutral. I understand some gennys require a load to make electricity. Still 30 Vrms, 64.4 Hz. Good sine wave though.


I have read the replies that Underground Lightning Rod posted on  http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/6/14/23147/3970

about the generator. VERY good information.


Even though I am used to working with voltages of this magnetude, I haven't tried flashing while the generator is running...yet. Does anyone know of a fairly safe way of doing this?


Any help or advice would be most appreciated!

« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 08:24:47 PM by (unknown) »
Phil

Flux

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2006, 02:43:30 PM »
If you have 30v then you will gain nothing by flashing it.


I am not familiar with the type of generator but it sounds as though it is a brush type, not a capacitor excited one.


How does it produce its field, is there an AVR or is it excited direct with some form of compounding. Was it a single diode or a bridge.


I will wait to see if someone is familiar with the type before offering you general advice on trying to work out how its exciting circuit works. If it has run at 30v for some time and the 3 phases are balanced I doubt that it is a winding fault.


flux

« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 02:43:30 PM by (unknown) »

phil b

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2006, 03:53:04 PM »
I'm not sure how the field is produced. Can't find anything that looks like a capacitor.

I'm going to attempt to post pics for clarification.

I think it is a brush type.




AVR with bridge?






here are other photos that may help.


http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/1110/generator_006.jpg

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/1110/panel.jpg

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/1110/generator.jpg

« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 03:53:04 PM by (unknown) »
Phil

zubbly

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2006, 05:35:24 PM »
hi phil b,


as Flux said, if you are getting 30 v, excitation will not help as it is producing.


two possible problems, your voltage regulator is shot, or the main board is so filthy that it is screwing up the electronics. looking at your pics, i think the dirt may be a main culprit there.


get out the pressurized air line and give it a good blow job  :)


i would almost bet 2 cents that will do the trick. (blow everything off well)


zubbly

« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 05:35:24 PM by (unknown) »

SparWeb

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2006, 09:25:24 PM »
I second the blow job for the board. :^)


I "fixed" a 21" monitor that way a few months ago.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 09:25:24 PM by (unknown) »
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2006, 10:11:01 PM »
I am not familiar with the type of generator but it sounds as though it is a brush type, not a capacitor excited one.


I second that.  The brush assembly is a giveaway, as is the printed message about adjusting "pot 2 on the regulator board" and the picture of a circuit board covered with integrated circuits next to a cluster of three small transformers (probably the step-down transformers to power the circuit board and provide it with a stepped-down sample of the voltage).


All that stuff about self-exciting generators doesn't apply.  This one has a voltage regulator powered by and sampling the output and providing an excitation current to the rotor through the brushes.


If you have 30v then you will gain nothing by flashing it.


I'll second that.  30v indicates there's enough residual magnetization to get it started.


I agree with blasting things clean, too.


Afterward you might try making a small adjustment to "pot 2" and see if the output voltage follows along.  That's probably the output voltage adjustment, or a control related to the voltage input level.  The warning is probably because it interacts with the winding configuration such that a change in configuration might cause the unit to overvoltage and burn out the electronics if it isn't re-tweaked before spinning - and to avoid people frying the machine they tell you to turn it to a safe setting when changing config, then bring it up once you're spinning, according to the manual's instructions (which may have more details on how to do this safely and correctly).


You should try to get hold of the manual if you can, before fooling around with it.  Contact the manufacturer for them.  They'll probably be helpful, and the manual is likey to cost much less than fixig something you break by tweakig without it.


Also:  What is the history of this unit?  Did you get it "AS -IS" with no info, or do you know how it got into this broken condition?  The more we know, the more we can help, and the less likely we'll tell you to do somethig that breaks it.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 10:11:01 PM by (unknown) »

jimjjnn

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2006, 10:49:57 PM »
You may be able to download the manual online.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 10:49:57 PM by (unknown) »

jimjjnn

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2006, 10:52:38 PM »
From seeing all the dirt on the AVR, you have to clean it real good as those pots may have dirt in them and if you adjust them dirty, you could wipe them out.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 10:52:38 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2006, 01:59:51 AM »
Now having seen the pictures, the others are right, it has an AVR and the bridge will be a diode /thyristor(SCR) combination that rectifies the field in proportion to its needs.


If you have changed the bridge, try it for a few seconds without the red transient suppressor (round thing) in case that has gone faulty.


Try the advice about cleaning the AVR board, even using a solvent such as isopropyl alcohol if necessary as you may have short circuit paths across the sensing circuit.


The place to look at is where the the ac sensing voltage ( likely from 1 line) comes into the AVR board. A shorted top end resistor will cause the AVR to think the machine is at rated volts.


Failing that it will likely be an expensive AVR replacement.


Flux

« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 01:59:51 AM by (unknown) »

phil b

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2006, 07:00:51 AM »
"get out the pressurized air line and give it a good blow job"

I'll give it a real GOOD blow job today!  Also, I'll unplug all the connections and look for corrosion. :)


"What is the history of this unit?  Did you get it "AS -IS" with no info, or do you know how it got into this broken condition?"

Underground Lightning Rod, I know the unit has been sitting without use for 8 years and suspect it was purchased at an auction since it has a Texas Highway Dept. asset tag on the panel. The folks I got it from had their machine shop crew get the engine running, but it wouldn't produce electricity. They said everyone they talked to about repairing the unit "ran backwards" because it looked to complicated.


"You may be able to download the manual online."

Jim, I've googled all over the net and can't find one. An Ebay guy has manuals on CD's but says the unit is so old his books don't cover it. If you might know where I can get one, I would be most appreciative!


Thanks to everyone for the help! I'll update later as someone else may also need the info.


phil b

« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 07:00:51 AM by (unknown) »
Phil

bparks

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2006, 07:36:38 AM »
Jim, I've googled all over the net and can't find one. An Ebay guy has manuals on CD's but says the unit is so old his books don't cover it. If you might know where I can get one, I would be most appreciative!


This might be a lead for you to try, they supposedly have a lead on this series in pdf format.


http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?s=7bb0ce938bc5eae17c637cbb246f3107&t=24023

« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 07:36:38 AM by (unknown) »

phil b

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2006, 12:39:08 PM »
Hi bparks, Thanks for the lead! I put my name in the hat for the file.


In the meantime, all the boards were washed in alcohol, blown off with air and returned to their places. Air alone didn't take care of it...too much grime. Another test run this afternoon.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 12:39:08 PM by (unknown) »
Phil

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2006, 04:01:23 PM »
"What is the history of this unit?  Did you get it "AS -IS" with no info, or do you know how it got into this broken condition?"


Underground Lightning Rod, I know the unit has been sitting without use for 8 years and suspect it was purchased at an auction since it has a Texas Highway Dept. asset tag on the panel. The folks I got it from had their machine shop crew get the engine running, but it wouldn't produce electricity. They said everyone they talked to about repairing the unit "ran backwards" because it looked to complicated.


Then the genny may have been dead when they sold it - and the reason it went on the block.


Not a killer by a long shot.


Even if the electronics are shot and an unfixable mystery black box, if the genny proper is OK we can probably come up with something.  (Start by unhooking the brushes and outputs from the circuit board, feeding the brushes a variable DC current and watching the AC output of the phases.  Then you'll have a reading on the rotating machine's condition and its excitation current vs. open-circuit voltage, which will get you off the ground for designing a new controller.  Then check out how the transformers, meters, bridge/whatever block, and any other off-the-regulator-board stuff is hooked up, and we can look into whether it might be in condition for reuse and simplification of whatever we come up with for the voltage control.)


Also, if the unit is so old the dox are lost in the mists of time it is likely the components are well-documented and the board could be reverse-engineered pretty trivially, followed by a straightforward diagnosis and fix.


Provided you didn't wash the markings off with the alcohol.  B-(


FYI:  Circuit boards can generally be washed with water jets (like in a dishwasher sans soap and on "energy save" non-heating settings) if you make sure they're really dry before you power them back up.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 04:01:23 PM by (unknown) »

jimjjnn

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2006, 11:13:17 PM »
I googled too and didnt find any manuals either. I have gotten manuals this way for other appliances so I thought Kohler might offer the same service. Sorry that it didn't work out.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 11:13:17 PM by (unknown) »

phil b

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2006, 05:49:00 PM »
Underground Lightning Rod


"...you didn't wash the markings off with the alcohol."


Nope, I thought of that when I saw the writing was in 'magic marker'. Used to draw traces on pc boards with them. :)


It's going to take a few days before I can get back to it. I will run the tests.


Variable voltage is easy, but I can't think of anything to accurately feed variable DC current that's easy to get my hands on. battery charger maybe? :))

« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 05:49:00 PM by (unknown) »
Phil

phil b

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Re: 3 phase generator help
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2006, 07:54:28 AM »
The problems have been solved and it's running very well. Thanks for all the comments!

The $1000 AVR board was bad. I replaced it and the unit still would not work. The unit has 4 relays. It seems someone had played a shell game with them before I got it. The relay on the far left in the pics should be a 120 volt relay. The other 3 are 12 volt. I also had to figure out the wiring on the terminal blocks. Some was connected to dead terminals. Still no voltage. I flashed the field windings while it was running and it came to life VERY quickly, just as Underlightning Rod suggested. Again, Thanks for the help!!

Phil B
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 07:54:28 AM by (unknown) »
Phil