Author Topic: capacitors as heat controllers  (Read 4056 times)

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electrondady1

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capacitors as heat controllers
« on: September 14, 2006, 05:03:59 PM »
http://www.fieldlines.com/comments/2005/6/22/105656/131/31

having no electronic knowlege i have been searching for a simple system .

this seems like the best yet.

 i am curious as to what is happening in the stator when a method like this is used?

and how is the size of the resistance heater determined?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 05:03:59 PM by (unknown) »

electrondady1

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2006, 11:10:27 AM »
sorry , i seem to be unable to create an active link.

 the original posting was titles "windmill heat controller"
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 11:10:27 AM by (unknown) »

electrondady1

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« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 11:30:56 AM by (unknown) »

Putte

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2006, 01:17:40 PM »
Hi electrondady.


Well as it is now i dont have a single genny up as i have moved all my stuff and have to renovate a lot and work a lot i am sorry to say that i have not done any more testing of that controller but it did work very well for me but i think the volt and hz is a bit picky get it to work at its best.


How big will you build?


But of course i cant stop building a 2 meters 24 volts is being planed for having power in the winter when the grid is down. Still got my batteries and my sin wave inverter i have good use of it when the grid down the grid is not good where i live. And ihave my single 3-4kw disk generator to build if it will be build some day it will be with capacitors controller with testing i have 1.61 volt per rev.


Putte.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 01:17:40 PM by (unknown) »

electrondady1

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2006, 02:02:32 PM »
we are in a similar situation putte.
as of now i have nothing up spinning and very distracted by renovations that need to be completed before the cold weather comes

when i am finished i wish to heat this little cabin with wind power.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 02:02:32 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2006, 03:03:23 PM »
I hope you put in a LOT of insulation - the best R number you could get.  Small cabins like that have a lot of surface area per unit volume and lose heat fast.


Ditto weatherstripping and search-and-destroy on air leaks (other than those necessary for ventilation).

« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 03:03:23 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2006, 03:05:59 PM »
I take it you're talking about putting capacitors in series with your resistive heater loads to change the power load curve from square-law to cube-law.  Is that right?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 03:05:59 PM by (unknown) »

electrondady1

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2006, 05:25:56 PM »
yup



u.l.r.
putte posted this drawing about a year ago , it seems so slick.
 no relays or fets or whatever.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 05:25:56 PM by (unknown) »

vawtman

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2006, 07:46:02 PM »
Wouldnt the heating element sized resistance wise to the alternator work.Low winds low heat but some.

If the alternator resistance is lower than the load wouldnt the windings become the heater.Not sure but would like to do this also.

Havnt seen or heard of working models yet.

 I know Zubblys got a plan not sure how hes coming along though.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 07:46:02 PM by (unknown) »

electrondady1

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2006, 08:55:04 PM »
vawtman, you may be right . that will be the focus of the next search. i certanly wouldn't want the stator to be warmer than the heater. !!lol

so what ever the optimum relationship it will require a purpose built geni.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 08:55:04 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2006, 09:01:22 PM »
Wouldnt the heating element sized resistance wise to the alternator work.Low winds low heat but some.


A resistive load pulls power at the square of the genny RPM.  But power available goes up with the cube, not the square.  So a resistive load is too high at startup and too low at high wind speeds.  Pick a resistance that pulls decent power at high RPM and you overload at low-to-typical wind speeds, stalling the blades and losing a lot of potential power.


Using caps fixes things by deliberately introducing a rotten power factor at low RPM that improves as RPM increases.  (Since the load is only interested in the current in this case, not the voltage, a "bad" power factor is not an issue.)


I've been thinking of doing something similar with a genny for charging, using series caps to approximate cube-law load.  But I haven't worked out yet whether the optimization is a good idea.  You need a higher voltage to get the cutin at the right speed, which means a higher resistance, which you can compensate for using heavier wire and more magnets to keep the field up in the resulting larger coils, etc.  Meanwhile the step response of the battery charging cutin already gives you part of the approximation you want.  I'm guessing that adding delta-wye switching to insert a second knee brings it close enough that playing games with caps may be less effective.


But for a resistive load the cube-law power comes in right on the money, giving you a lot more heat at the high end without sacrificing the low end.  The sweet match should make the extra copper and magnets to optimize the genny for a far-from-one power factor worth the expense.


If the alternator resistance is lower than the load wouldnt the windings become the heater.


No, the other way around.  P = I^2 R.


Current in the windings = current in the heater coils, voltage (and thus power) is divided in proportion to resistance.  So with, say, 1 ohm in the genny coils and 9 ohms in the heater the genny would dissipate 10% of the power and the heater 90%.


This is independent of the phase and power factor issues.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 09:01:22 PM by (unknown) »

electrondady1

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2006, 10:09:25 PM »
thats really helpful lightnin rod, thanks!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 10:09:25 PM by (unknown) »

Putte

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2006, 02:52:55 AM »
Nice little cabin.


To keep it warm in the winter is a challenge with only wind power. But as keeping it dry and fresh would work perfect with windpower.


I am not that good on eletronic but i did find it hard in some testing to read the right watts so i did meter the voltage over the resistor instead of only meter the volt from the generator. Even if this system would be less efficient than hitek system nothing can beat the cost of it.


Putte

« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 02:52:55 AM by (unknown) »

vawtman

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2006, 07:00:57 AM »
Thanks Ungrounded Lightning Rod i was hoping to be wrong and learned something today already.Back to the drawing board or maybe coloring book.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 07:00:57 AM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2006, 07:20:44 AM »
Never heard of using something like a

"Frequency Dependant Negative Resistor" (FDNR) for heat.

When the Hz change the resistance changes? That sound good for heat, right?

Not sure what one really is, or what it does.

G-
« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 07:20:44 AM by (unknown) »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2006, 02:25:53 PM »
Never heard of using something like a

"Frequency Dependant Negative Resistor" (FDNR) for heat.

When the Hz change the resistance changes?


No resistance change.  An ideal capacitor has no resistance, and a real one has very little.


What all (linear) components have is IMPEDENCE, which has a resistive and a reactive component.  Resistors (ideal ones) have a nonzero resistive component and a zero reactive component.  Inductors have a reactive component of one sign and capacitors have one of the other.


When you apply a volatge change to a capacitor (through a resistance) you get a charging current that peters out once the capacitor is charged.  If you let it peter out all the way to zero the total amount of ampere-seconds (coulumbs of charge) you get is delta-volts times capacitance in farads.  Reverse the voltage and you pull that many ampere-seconds the other way.


The more often you reverse the voltage, the more current you drive throught the capacitor.  It's an approximately linear increase at low frequencies but starts to peter out as the halfcycle period approaches and crosses the time constant (1/RC) of the combination of the capacitor and resistor.  Far below the time constant the capacitor dominates and the current is proportional to frequency times voltage times capacitance, far above it the resistor dominates and the current is proportional to resistance times voltage.  Near the time constant it's a compromise.


At the low frequencies we're using the capacitors would have to be humungous (or the resistors so large that there would be little current) to make the time constant large enough to approach the hafcycle period.  So unless you're talking capacitors in the thousands of microfarads to farads range you can figure on currents about linear with frequency * voltage, and power ...


Oh, shoot.  FOURTH power of frequency?


Well, OK, it's not as sweet a match as I was thinking (unless you use caps big enough to bring the time-constant "knee" in a bit).


But now it looks even better for avoiding stall at low frequencies and/or using the heater as a dump load.


(Mumble mutter grumble gripe.)

« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 02:25:53 PM by (unknown) »

electrondady1

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2006, 07:51:28 AM »
ungrounded lightning rod.
your explanations make me feel like a neandertall confronted by homosapiens.
a capacitor has two terminals each connected to a large strip of aluminum foil.
 two huge surface areas seperated by a layer of paper.
when a current is applied to one surface it builds up like static electricity untill it reaches a certan level and then it unloads across the paper to the other strip of foil.
the same thing happens in reverse when the next part of the ac wave is applied.
it's able to do this with out a heat build up because of the large surface area.

The more often you reverse the voltage, the more current you drive throught the capacitor.
ok
 It's an approximately linear increase at low frequencies but starts to peter out as the halfcycle period approaches and crosses the time constant
 
the idea of a time constant escapes me

(1/RC) of the combination of the capacitor and resistor.  Far below the time constant the capacitor dominates and the current is proportional to frequency times voltage times capacitance, far above it the resistor dominates and the current is proportional to resistance times voltage.  Near the time constant it's a compromise.

the idea of a time constant escapes me,so after that, things get foggy.



« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 07:51:28 AM by (unknown) »

electrondady1

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2006, 07:56:39 AM »
i laid this out with spacing to help clairify put posted without hiting the plaintext seting .


 ungrounded lightning rod.

your explanations make me feel like a neandertall confronted by homosapiens!

a capacitor has two terminals each connected to a large strip of aluminum foil.


two huge surface areas seperated by a layer of paper.

when a current is applied to one surface it builds up like static electricity untill it reaches a certan level and then it unloads across the paper to the other strip of foil.

the same thing happens in reverse when the next part of the ac wave is applied.

it's able to do this with out a heat build up because of the large surface area.


The more often you reverse the voltage, the more current you drive throught the capacitor.

ok

 It's an approximately linear increase at low frequencies but starts to peter out as the halfcycle period approaches and crosses the time constant


the idea of a time constant escapes me


(1/RC) of the combination of the capacitor and resistor.  Far below the time constant the capacitor dominates and the current is proportional to frequency times voltage times capacitance, far above it the resistor dominates and the current is proportional to resistance times voltage.  Near the time constant it's a compromise.


the idea of a time constant escapes me,so after that, things get fogg

« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 07:56:39 AM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2006, 03:12:23 PM »
your explanations make me feel like a neandertall confronted by homosapiens!


Don't assume you can't do this.  It comes from spending hour after hour for years in classrooms learning this stuff.  (I was going for an electrical engineering degree back in the days when you had to learn about rotating machinery to get the sheepskin that let you get a job designing a computer.  B-) )


a capacitor has two terminals each connected to a large strip of aluminum foil.

two huge surface areas seperated by a layer of paper.


Or a layer of oil(or oil-soaked paper).  Or of air.  Or one plate is a sheet of aluminum foil, the other is a solution of chemicals, and the insulator between them is a layer of oxide on the foil created by electrochemical acton (the same process as "anodizing").


That last on is an "electrolytic" capacitor.  You have to only charge it up a particular direction, because if you charge it the other way the insulation disolves and it shorts out.  You can make several electrolyitcs in one can with the negative (solution) terminal connected togeter by putting multiple separate pieces of foil in it.  A "non-polarized electrolytic" capacitor is such a device, with two equal plates in the solution, and the terminals connected to the plates (the "positive" terminals).  It acts like two electrolytic capacitors in series, and the small asymmetric leakage charges the solution negative so the insulation is maintained.


when a current is applied to one surface it builds up like static electricity untill it reaches a certan level and then it unloads across the paper to the other strip of foil.  the same thing happens in reverse when the next part of the ac wave is applied.


More like:  If you push an electron in a wire onto one plate, its field repells an electron off the other plate and out the other wire.  Push in two, get out two.  Push in a billion, get out a billion.


Meanwhile, as you pile up electrons on one plate and atoms lose electrons on the other, you get an electric field pushing back against the current.  This shows up as a voltage between the therminals.  The more electrons you push in, the harder it fights back with a reverse voltage.  (It's like cocking a spring.)  The bigger the capacitor, the more electrons it takes to get a given amount of push-back.  (A one-farad capacitor will push back with one volt once you've pushed one amp through it for one second.)


(Interestingly, the change in the field between the plates creates exactly the same magnetic field as if the electrons were actually crossing the boundary.  So you can't tell if you've got a capacitor or a wire in a box by measuring the magnetic field from the current through it.  B-)  That has nothing to do with this circuit.  But it's useful when you're designing antennas.)


it's able to do this with out a heat build up because of the large surface area.


Actually, it's able to do this without a heat buildup because there's negligible resistance in the wires and plates.  As the field is like a spring, resistance is like friction, turning motion (of charge carriers) into heat while slowing them down.  A good capacitor has very little resistance - either in the wiring, or from losses as charged particles move around in the dilectric insultion under the influence of the varying electric field.


The more often you reverse the voltage, the more current you drive throught the capacitor.  ok  It's an approximately linear increase at low frequencies but starts to peter out as the halfcycle period approaches and crosses the time constant


Right.  Because a given voltage can only push so many electrons through before the capacitor is fighting back with that voltage and the electrons stop.  So reverse it more offen and get more bursts of electrons, for a higher average current.  (An amp is a coulumb of electrons per second moving past a particular point in a circuit.)


the idea of a time constant escapes me


The resistance is also fighting the curent.  That's like fluid friction:  The faster the current, the harder it fights back.  After the voltage turns on, initially the current is high (with the voltage drop all across the resistor).  As the capacitor charges up, its voltage-drop rises.  The total voltage across the capacitor and resistor must equal the applied voltage, which means the voltage across the resistor has to drop, which means the current through the resistor goes down.  The result is that the current starts out high and gradually drops, approaching zero as the capacitor approaches a volatge equal to the input.  The closer the cap gets to the applied voltage, the slower it charges.  It never QUITE gets there, but it quickly gets VERY close.  (It's a "decaying exponential".  The time constant tells you how fast it decays, i.e. how fast it approaches the limit of no current.)


If your freuqency is low, the capacitor gets essentially fully charged right away.  It acts like an electron counter, letting a certain number of electrons through on every cycle.  So the more cycles, the more electrons.  The current is limited by the capacitor, not the resistor.


As your frequency increases, the capacitor misses getting a full charge by progressively more.  The amount of electrons per cycle starts to fall off from the ideal.  While the current still goes up with frequency, it starts to fall back from being in direct proportion.  The current is limited by the combination of the capacitor and the resistor.


If your frequency is really high, the capacitor hardly gets any charge before it reverses.  It never fights significantly, but acts like a short circuit.  The current is limited by the resistor.


By telling you how fast the capacitor approaches the limit of charge equal to the applied voltage, the "time constant" also tells you the period (inverse of frequency) where the split between the two effects is equal.  You need calculus to derive it, but once you have the formula (1/RC) it's trivial to compute.


the idea of a time constant escapes me,so after that, things get fogg


First year calculus (differentiation and integration) is enough to analyze linear circuits.  "Linear" means "sum of reactions to multiple inputs equals sum of reactions to each input individually".  (This often implies graphing how things react to inputs makes straight lines, hence "linear".)  That means circuits made out of resistors, capacitors, inductors, transformers (as long as the core isn't saturating).  (Diodes, transistors, saturable cores, etc. make things 'way complicated to get them dead on.  But there are simple linear approximations that let you handle them easily if you're careful not to operate them where the approximations are too far off.)


It's also great for understanding forces in structures, strength of materials, motion of masses, vibration, designing to avoid cogging, and a lot of other stuff related to windmills (like the Betz Limit and other maximization problems.)


If you haven't taken it yet, first-year calculus requires beating your head against a couple of ideas for a couple months.  But all of a sudden you "get it" and it's like the scales falling from your eyes.  You walk around and see the math everywhere.


If you HAVE taken it, the currents in a linear circuit ARE calculus made real:

 - Resistor:  Voltage across it is proportional to current through it.  Resistance is the proportionality constant.

 - Capacitor:  Voltage across it is proportional to the integral of current through it.  Capacitance is the (inverse of the) proportionality constant.

 - Inductor:  Voltage across it is proportional to the derivative of current through it.  Inductance is the proportionality constant.


Combine with a little matrix algebra for handling complex interconnects and laplace transforms (derivable from first-year calculus) for shortcutting computations, and you have the whole of "analysis of linear circuits" right there in your toolkit.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2006, 03:12:23 PM by (unknown) »

Putte

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2006, 05:11:40 AM »
Wow thanks ungrounded Lightning Rod for giving of your time explaining.


Putte

« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 05:11:40 AM by (unknown) »

electrondady1

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2006, 07:24:48 AM »
yes, thanks!

thats the best explanation i have come across and i have been searching.

i hope you are teaching something somewere to someone.


 

« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 07:24:48 AM by (unknown) »

robl

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2006, 03:01:26 PM »
I'm sure I've missed something in this thread, but...


Why not use a classic PWM (DC) or phase-control circuit (AC) to control the power into the heaters. It works for thousands of hydro setups all over the world. I use phase-control myself. Once my self-excited three-phase gennie comes up to design voltage/frequency, the controller very gently adds a baseboard heater load as required to keep the voltage steady. Before that i used a 3KW hot-water heater. Adding a shut-down function (full-loading) would require little more than a switch to bypass the comparator output.


Waiting to be enlightened and/or put in my place...


Rob

« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 03:01:26 PM by (unknown) »

electrondady1

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2006, 04:53:08 PM »
hi rob ,

 you might have missed the first line of this thread were i say i have no knowlege of electronics lol

sticking a cap in line with a heater seemed like an easy solution.


not shure, but pwm might stand for pulse width modulation . i have no idea how to make one or match it to a generator in order to keep my feet warm.

this is the first time i've heard the term phase control circuit.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 04:53:08 PM by (unknown) »

robl

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Re: capacitors as heat controllers
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2006, 05:31:47 PM »
Sorry E,  It's such along thread that I have only a fuzzy memory of the first few messages...


Phase Control is a $10 term for using a device called a TRIAC (don't ask) which can be used to cheaply and very precisely control AC power from your genny into a dump-load. It is triggered on every zero-crossing of a sine-wave, thus can provide very fast response-times.


A phase-controlled load dump is basically identical to a standard house-dimmer, with two exceptions: the controlled power can be many Kilowatts, and instead of manual control, it is easily triggered by a cheap but precise control circuit.


They are commercially available, although if you have a friend/neighbour/relative who is handy with a soldering iron you can get one built for less than $50. If you want the luxury of voltmeter and ammeter readouts the cost might go up to $100. Basic variations of the circuit are available all over the Internet. The one I have been using for the last 10 years or so, is based on a design originally published in a Mother Earth magazine in the eighties.


Worth considering as you struggle with all that hardware.


Regards


Rob

« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 05:31:47 PM by (unknown) »