Countryboy,
It is quiet clear to me that I have made a mistake due to the vociferous nature of your responses. And I do apologise most sincerely. I posted my questions because I believed that there would be some one here who had attempted to do what I wish to do or was interested in the concept.
I do not have all the answers. My concern is that you highlight comments out of context; this with the greatest of respect is so verging on the appearance of troll like behaviour. Not once have you asked me a question all you have made are self opinionated statements based on a failure of comprehension of what I have been asking or saying. I have re read my original post to see if the questions and premise still make sense.
I am not sure if I should even address your last post but I feel in someway responsible, as I wrote my own words. Perhaps if I take your formatting approach?
"Oh bullcrap. You keep saying you want to synchronize the output of all your generators."
hmmm..ok slight missleading due to terminology. The statement is true and way to broad. The point at which synchronisation occurs is the fundemental difference. I have no intention what so ever tyring to synchronise a diesel generator set and an AC mill at the same point. Might I surgest a slightly smaller hammer to crack the wallnut shell as opposed to a wrecking ball.
"The 2 windmill generators are going to produce wild AC."
Agreed it is my intention and always was that I should rectify this with inverters, connect them with appropriate charge controllers to a battery bank.
Using grid tie inverters that will synch to a stable reference voltage and frequency...to copy from my original post
"I am thinking the best way to do this is to trick the inverters I put on the mill/s and the solar panels to thinking they are grid tied by perhaps having a stable "reference" voltage and frequency perhaps supplied from the battery bank."
"If you are suggesting that you wanted multiple biodiesel or gas or diesel generators to be synchronous output,"
Yes I am, I want to automate my generators starting and synchronising to each other and the bus.
"Then you are ignoring the obvious. The easy obvious solution would be to get ONE biodiesel generator capable of meeting all your needs. That way you don't have to screw with multiple machines."
I am not ignoring it I am trying to find away around it. I can produce the power in the right format and I believe with the appropriate switching technology at a much lower cost than a new generator I can by application or `screw around' as you put it to get the desired result.
"Hombrew" to my mind is all about `screwing around' your phrase not mine, to achieve something that in the case of windmills is available from another source. By your analogy everyone should not bother `screwing around' with a mill when there are other proven and tried techniques that in your opinion are less fuss and less hassle.
"If you DID want to run multiple small diesel generators, you would rectify all outputs to DC, and then invert to produce a constant pure AC."
1) Why? When a pure constant wave form already exists from the output of the alternators, in fact not only does it exist but aside from the phase angle probably being different the output is identical to the supply the renewable inverters are connected to. Back this up with some facts please ones that can be verified by pointing me in a direction or to someone qualified to validate your opinion.
"If you can already do this, then why are you asking us uneducated amateurs for advice? What could we possibly know? I agree with Volvo Farmer - you already know far more about what you are proposing than we do.
I know it can be done, I do not know the best way to do it, so I am asking.
Hmmm uneducated amateurs...you do your fellow board members a disservice! There seems to be a lot of highly educated people connected to this forum with many experiences from many walks of life. `Flux' and Nando for example seems to have a fine and solid education and experience in electronics and electrical theory. My replies to this thread are to pass on what knowledge I have; in the hope someone interested in this subject will gain from what I have to offer. It's a community thing.
"I think YOU missed the point! We ALREADY told you the easiest solution is to use all of your gennies to charge the battery bank, and then run the inverter off the batteries. Forget trying to synchronise the outputs of your gennies."
This is a (one, simgular) solution....but need to be taken in context, as above at point 1)
"Yes, synchronous inverters CAN synchronise. That means they produce the voltage and frequency the line already carries. The diesel generator is a 'master' and the synchronousinverter is the 'slave'. You seem to forget that a slave can't serve 2 masters. If you hook 2 generators to a synchronous inverter, the inverter won't know which generator to be a slave to. The inverter will fry trying to please 2 masters.
Maybe you don't understand the meaning of a synchronous inverter. A synchronous inverter does not make the generators match the inverter voltage and frequency. A synchronous inverter synchronizes its output to the voltage and frequency of the generator's voltage and frequency."
This is the point that you have got ALL backwards. The first line is nearly spot on; they produce a voltage and frequency that as near as damit exactly matches the reference voltage in this case the grid voltage and frequency.
Then it where it all goes horribly wrong for you again with another erroneous statement. There is NO master and slave generator in a synchronous set up by definition they DO NOT exist! and I am not discusing alternators with different power outputs. I don't forget that a slave can not serve two masters because there are not to masters to be served! What is also erroneous in your statement is the inverter will fry! absolute rubbish! A grid tie invert will disconnect itself from the reference source if the frequency or voltage or angular phase, changes beyond the preset parameters that govern its synchronisation in the first place.
If you take two running generators that are synchronised together they will be in phase and they will; all things being equal appear to be one single source of power.
If the two above generators that now function as one and having a stable output voltage and a stable frequency, (and there is no reason they shouldn't) that closely matches the tolerance for the grid tie inverters synchronisation parameters, then the inverters will in turn synchronise to the alternators output adding to the total power available. In the case of a grid tie inverter, it assumes it's connected to the grid and then synchronises with the generator supplied output. Exactly what you said in your last paragraph, and I have never implied differently!
"Where are you getting this? Why can't they get out of phase? Where do you get the ridiculous notion that the output of 2 generators will be in sync with each other? A synchronous inverter won't join two generators together."
What exactly is ridiculous here? How exactly do you think a generating company creates enough power to supply demand? It does not have one almighty generator! It has a number that it brings up and synchronises with the ones currently in operation, to supply any additional power demand. The grid then delivers that power from synchronised mixed sources to the homes, where some people have grid tied power generation that then synchronise with the voltage and phase parameters seen at the point of delivery from the grid. In fact there is more the same grid also allows the connection to other power generation companies not afiliated with the first whose generators also have to be in sync with the grid prior to connection. This is the established practice, this is the way it is done.
You are correct an inverter will not join two generators together. I never said differently!
"Um, once again, how do you propose joining the two generators together? A synchronous inverter is not capable of doing that."
At the risk of repeating myself. There are two methods known to me one a manual interaction which I have detailed the process of and use, the other is with what's called a synchroscope. I do not want, nor can I afford a synchroscope based upon those I have found that will suit my needs, hence the whole reason behind this post "A way to do it automatically with out a commercial synchroscope"
Your last sentence is again correct that an inverter is not capable of doing that and again nor did I suggest that it could.
"The closest thing I can think of to anything remotely close to what you are describing, is the process of running single phase current through a 3 phase motor spun in reverse in order to generate 3 phase."
This statement is another statement of yours that again highlights your yet unrecognised desperate need to ask more questions and read the replies more diligently. Your thought/response here is so far off base and erroneous it might as well be in response to how to plane a piece of wood. I use one of these to supply my 3 phase milling machine but nowhere does it spin in reverse! It's called a rotary phase converter and works on the principle of induction to generate a phantom 3rd phase from one of the windings that is naturaly in phase with the source single phase supply.
Here is an easily comprehendible page on how it does work and it has even got some diagrams
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html
"If you were to power an induction motor to spin a generator, the generator's output would be synchronous with the frequency of the power supply to the induction motor."
completely irelevant to this post.
"My advice is to sit back, and read the board for a month or two. Once you have learned the basics, THEN start asking your questions."
I think you ought to take your own advice before you cause your self further embarrassment or make any further erroneous statements that someone might take for granted as fact and have a mishap with!
"Had you spent a month or two reading the board before asking questions, you would have understood why Nando told you he preferred to play dumb. I have a difficult time understanding Nando sometimes, due to language translations, but I have learned to recognize that Nando has a wealth of knowledge and experience with setting up non-typical electric generation situations. The man has probably forgotten far more than I will ever know about electric controls. When he tells you that he prefers to play dumb, it means that you have asked something ridiculous, and even if it was possible, it is not cost efficient or practical."
I am not going to enter into a verbal rant with you.
I have proven categorically that it is possible and that it is likely to be very cost efficient with the control devices I have in mind and a little help..compared to either a new generator set or the cost of synchroscopes I have seen.
As for interpreting Nando's reply, he posed a situation very similar in concept to what I am talking about, but declined not to comment further because it was beyond his field of expertise. At least that was my interpretation and will remain so until he voices different. I am confident that he can a) speak for himself and b)re address any miscoception I may have on his thoughts! with out you speaking or asuming for him. Thats just plain rude!
Quite frankly you need to read more carefully and digest what is written or proposed and then think on it for a while.....then ask questions if you are unclear as to the concept being proposed. You also need to stop making assumptions and making wildly defamatory and erroneous remarks. It will so help the perception you have given to me and others I am sure, that you are the resident forum troll.
If you do not understand something I have said ask and I will try and clarify but I will not address another one of your posts if it comes in the same style again and I will also seek admin advice.
update.....
I was just re reading this for accuracy and I have to thank you, you have helped me with one thought, not the automation or its feasibility but with, what will happen to the inverters when a generator starts.....it will disconnect itself from the reference voltage But it will reconnect as soon as the generator settles down. . Having said that if a single generator start and is synchronised with the reference voltage the same voltage the inverter is synchronised to before the breaker is closed then nothing potentially adverse will happen because all the units on in synch. Starting another generator and synchronising that will have no further impact because it will not be delivering any power to the bus until it is synchronised with the bus....
Thanks, now how to automate the starting and synchronisation part.
Neo
Sorry its been long response everyone but the truth will out.