switching out high current items

[badmoonryzn]

I am wondering if there are any ideas on how to use ones current in house wiring. I would like to separate the water heater, furnace and cook stove items from the circuit without having to buy a new box. I have a generator bypass switch, but I have read about some box that separates the big draws and allows you to feed certain house demands for use when the grid goes down from your generator. I have looked at some of the prices of the new panels and I just can't cut loose with hundreds of dollars. Does anyone know where to get the data to build one of these devices? I have my solar ready for the roof and that will give me a start of a 5000wt service with 4 group 31's and 135 watt panels to charge it during the day. It's a start and I will add the wind and/or water mill to it whenever I get them done.

By the way, The kid was found in Bend, finally Christmas is over, the astringed wife is still in maximum crisis and is not far from a total breakdown, she has completely lost the ability to throw a fit, very odd indeed, soon the holidays will be a thing of the past and I have decided to become a heavy drinking hermit. Oh well, life goes on. I also looked over the site trying to find a pulse generator circuit to burn off old batteries oxidation. A battery rebuild/charger. Don't laugh; they help to regain use of old batteries that are not shorted. I built one 20 some years ago, but I gave it away and I can't find the diagram. I hope all had a nice Christmas Holiday, I did for a change, and it was quite nice.

I made a bunch of night-time pet lights out of super bright LEDs that turn on by movement and the timing of the on and flash duration allows the batteries to last for months. Every one loved them. I love LEDs. The bad people at Cree never would sell me any without buying hundreds of thousands of theirs so I got some from a Chinese company who was real helpful with their data an they were awesome bright with the cost under 3 bucks each. The only catch was: it was hard to understand their English. You can see the lights at 140 yards at night, most likely further, but the tree line starts there for me. If anyone can help me with the stuff I'm looking for I'd appreciate it! Happy New Year!

Badmoon aka Trailer Trash

 

[thirteen]

If there is an old house that is being torn down get the panel out of it or go to a recycleing place and you should be able to pick an old panel up for a few $$  A trashed trailer house from an auto salvage junk yard or even an aution place may have something you could use. Strip them out and use only the breakers need for separation. using the main breaker as a disconnect subed from your main panel. Most of the older panels are ok but not the amount of ciruts people want so they are not used. A hundred amp panel or even a 60 amp will do most of what you want.  But don't try it if you do not understand wireing it could kill you. Test each circut before touching.    

[vawtman]

Darnit Thirteen i usually touch each circuit before testing.

 I guess that explains alot of my woes.

 Happy New Years and dont touch that dial.

[wdyasq]

Instead of 'oxidation' try 'sulfation' as a search term in battery rejuvenation. It helps if one uses correct nomenclature.

I use large relays to isolate loads. One can do such things as turn on a water-heater and when the thermostat switches off it kills the contact.

Here is a post that should have some search terms:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/12/27/10332/680

There are dozens of similar posts. Many have diagrams. Learn to do a site search with google. The 'Scoop' search feature is worthless - IMO.

Ron

[Nando]

Your water mill should be the first item to work on -- that is if you are going to generate power using water.

Nando

[badmoonryzn]

Hi Nando,

I agree, it is the best source of lots of power, but it also needs the best design expertise. Due to the nature of the river rise and fall I have to build something to raise up and down ten feet that will track parallel with the river, take one heck of a load sideways, ward off derbies in the river, compensate for water speeds of 3 to 8 miles per hour, and be able to be removed in case of failure or damage. I have the option of using one of several alternators I have, but they all need somewhere in the area of 1800 to 3200 RPM, so I will have to gear it up. I have thought of using a two speed rear end and the six speed tranny out of my race car since I don't use it any more. Anyway, I hate to have to build something that weighs 1500 pounds, but it would give me loads of gear ratios. I also thought of using the gearing mechanism from a snow mobile. They are really cool giant V-belt/pully designs to maintain a constant RPM to keep the two stroke engine in it's power band.

They are also used in the Honda Pilots and FL 350's. They are a really neat automatic tranny. Comet also makes the trannys for other off road uses. I built a couple of mini dune buggies and got the trannys from them, but they cost about 600 each in the nineties. It would be nice to find a small planetary gear set, but I have never seen one. Turning four miles per hour in to 2500 RPM will be interesting I'll bet. I was hoping for something in the 800 pound range. I still want to make a New England witch dipper counter balanced device with the paddle wheel on one end and the alternator on the other. Hoping they would counter balance each other so the wheel would set in the water with a low weight and hopefully allow debris to go under the wheel if the catcher failed to divert the junk around the wheel.

I thought of using a 30-foot log truck reach. It is made of thin wall T-1 steel and is pretty light and super strong. There are loads of old log trucks rusting away up here, and I could get one pretty cheep if not for free. The wheel will have to be made out of wood to start until the design works out and I will make it out of steel. I want to have it float on the water and set in a channel before a rapid. The rapid is there at all flows and is 25 feet long and at it's shallowest is three feet deep in the summer. It sets five feet out from the bank in the summer and 13 feet in the winter at the highest flow. The bank is very steep there. I poured a pad to put the irrigation pump on, but I will need a larger better anchored one for the mount of the pole fulcrum. I will also need to run a cable anchor up river to support the pole laterally against the current. There is not going to be a simple answer to this as I can't find anything like it anywhere to get ideas from.

I figure on making an eighth scale version to work out the bugs with before I commit to the 10 to 20 KW alternators I have. If you have any ideas let me know as I have several things that screw up the install. I can't divert water and we can only go out from the bank ten feet otherwise we block the rivers navigation. I don't understand the later, as no one has ever used this river for navigation. It is too shallow to take a raft down most of the year. A dam a half mile up from my house keeps Portland OR from flooding in the winter controls the rivers flow. Navigation my foot, toy boats maybe! Well, that is my plight and I want to lower my energy costs, so I started with the quickest way I could afford. I also replaced all of my light bulbs but the two on dimmers. I found a place that had GE CFs on sale for cheep in 40, 60, 75 and 100 watt sizes so I got twenty assorted bulbs and gave the incandescent to my kids. I wonder if LEDs work in dimmers? Oh well, have a nice one.

badmoon

[badmoonryzn]

I always lick my fingers first, it really gets the ol sparks a jumping!

badmoon

[badmoonryzn]

Thanks Ron,

I read 50 or 60 posts after several searches, but there was nothing covering what I asked. I even copied several of the posts I thought would be of some help in the future in this area and I did see many interesting things and a few diagrams that paralleled my thoughts, but due to the complexity much was missing. I am an information junkie and I read all of the time because I want to know as much as will fit in to this little pea brain of mine. I may search for days on a subject before I ask about anything. Asking questions is an effort either to clarify or add to the data I have read so I can make a decision, or maybe I did not understand the subject and felt there might be someone who could clarify this for me and hammer out its finer points. I always search!

Oh well, I am still curious how auto start backups switch out the high current draw items. They must open up a relay somewhere in the line to the breakers and are switched out when the backup comes on line. I have never looked inside one of those boxes, but I like the idea to find an older 100-200 amp box and build my own bypass box out of relays and new breakers. I am concerned about how many different house, generator, inverter and other devices in the line might affect the overall picture. I can wire the output of my big alternator to match the grid but my little 6000watt portable is not wired the same as the grid and most likely will not match the inverter either.

Electric Ed brought up some good points about how to wire in a portable generator to the service, but I do not want to damage the inverter either so I am going to use relays to several devices to protect them from damage when the grid comes back on. Maybe use time delayed relays so they isolate before allowing the grid to come back on. It's that split second that might get into trouble. I'm not sure how to draw up the design because I feel I am missing something and that usually means smoke. Oh well, I still have the manual generator bypass switch. Sometimes I wonder if it would be easier to wire in a few separate outlets isolated from the grid power and only used when the power goes down, however hopefully in a year or so I will be off of the grid for good and will be getting all of my power from the generators. I will still want to have the ability to use wind and solar as backups if the water genny goes down for some reason. Using the gas generator takes five gallons of fuel every eight to ten hours and that's over $30.00 a day if you run 20 hours. OUCH! There are so many thongs to consider. What to do! What to do?

badmoon

[badmoonryzn]

What a great idea!

Thanks

badmoon

[thirteen]

Don't pick on me HAHA Just trying to make people think just a second before being lite up or knocked down.  

 As a serious note; a one second thought is it worth the smile and laughter from a grand child or wife or children.

[Nando]

BADMOON:

First mistake, you start "displaying" what to do, before You do a good evaluation of your water sources.

Forget what you have mechanically, it may not be needed, DEFINE your water sources that by principle is the best power source since it can run continuously.

Do a GOOD and ACCURATE definition of your power source and it seems by your short "report" that you may have a lot of water.

Compensate 3 to 8 miles per hour ??.

What are You trying to do ??

Define what head you can have, also the water volume, due to regulations or what ever.

Then due a good survey and forget compensations, then how to bring the water to the turbine with pressure capturing.

Then the Turbine solution -- but stop inserting ideas to something that you do not know how to implement Yet.

Of all your writing of your message the only part that is partially relevant is the part above :

>>and be able to be removed in case of failure or damage.

The part below this phrase is just chaff obscuring what can be done and useless at the present time.

Be practical, inform carefully from data taken carefully, to get the proper suggestions based on carefully collected data -- If I need to respond to you, based on what you said, NO solution can be "glimpsed" at all.

As a case. I helped a fellow in the Southern Continent that had a 2 KW rudimentary hydro and by carefully eliminating the "chaff" that he was constantly inserting in his messages, I showed to him how " report properly, clearly and precisely" to attain 30 KW with the same water volume, by just doing a careful re-piping his water to the higher power Turbine and he needed every bit of power he could get, end up with two turbines, one low power 3 KW and the new one 30 KW.

Carefully describe and even photos where the intake can be done, present benefits and/or problems by choosing such site, give alternate sites with the same considerations -- that is the start.

Nando

[elvin1949]

 Now i no why my hair make's a corkscrew look straight.

later

elvin

[badmoonryzn]

Hello Nando,

You are correct I have not even come close to a design on the water wheel, other than the way I want to put it into the water. I have read hundreds of posts here and heaven only knows how many others from universities and other sites on the Internet. I cannot find design data on wheels to build other than vague pictures of designs that should work. The undershot wheel is what to use in my situation, but finding a proven design to build has eluded me up to now. I know I have plenty of power in the river behind me and I want to use it as my primary source energy. If you know of any undershot type wheel plans let me know because if I continue on at this rate I will never get the water wheel made. In the last three months I have started several wind mills and they are coming along nicely and I am enjoying the time spent. I am even getting three of the little gennys from Ed to set up a couple of LED arrays down the driveway to the house. I will have five windmills up and running before I get a good start on the river project.

It is quite rewarding, but the water project is troubling. I will put all of the relevant data in a post or email to you and leave out the BS. I have a few guidelines I have to follow because of the regulations on river water usage, plus I have to deal with the river going up and down in the winter 6 to 8 feet every time they shut the water off at the dam up above my house about ¾ of a mile. The flood control can be changed every few hours in the winter and sometimes they cut the water down to below summer levels. I cannot divert or dam in any manner, however I can set an apparatus in the water as long as it is not permanently affixed in the river channel. Up on the top of the bank is OK. I will post some pictures on the spot I want to use too. There are a few things beyond my control and were it up to me I would do it differently, but it's not up to me.

Thanks Nando,

badmoon

[badmoonryzn]

Oh now, that is hitting below the belt. There is nothing in the world like my kids, grand kids and family. Nothing! So OK, watch where you put your fingers and always treat every circuit like it is hot, no matter what you know, or think you know. My grandfather was electrocuted up on a power pole while he was replacing an insulator while the wires were hot. My understanding is the first shock moved him in to the other lines and it started to jump phase to phase until he fell off into some bushes. It blew off his arms and legs. He lived, but managed to kill himself after a few months with a shotgun. Somehow managed to get and fire the shotgun while he was on the floor by using one of his legs. My mother was terrified of guns and electricity for the rest of her life. So it does happen.

moon