Author Topic: 500 amp Shunt  (Read 9611 times)

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Shadow

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500 amp Shunt
« on: January 11, 2007, 09:43:04 PM »
I'm getting things lined up to hook up a Tri-metric into my system. It calls for a 500 amp shunt. I have numerous shunts from 50amp, to 200 amp. So can I stack a couple of 200amp and a 100 amp to get the required 500 amp? Or is it more complicated than that, and would never get past the... shunt police?

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 09:43:04 PM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2007, 02:54:29 PM »
You can parallel them if the connections to the cabling is really tight and as shown in the photo you included.


Clean the surfaces well, and make them flat or if possible use pure copper flash to insure tight conduction.


Hard and tight with the bolts handling.


Nando

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 02:54:29 PM by (unknown) »

Shadow

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2007, 03:04:13 PM »
 Thanks, Would it help to use heat sink compound between the surfaces?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 03:04:13 PM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2007, 03:47:09 PM »
Don't you DARE to do such a thing, automatically you will damage the connection.

the heat sink compound has insulation capabilities to certain extent.


Nando

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 03:47:09 PM by (unknown) »

willib

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2007, 03:49:13 PM »
http://www.nwpwr.com/products/meters/tri-metric.htm

their shunts look a LOT smaller than yours
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 03:49:13 PM by (unknown) »
Carpe Ventum (Seize the Wind)

Volvo farmer

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2007, 04:31:05 PM »
Yah, you sure those shunts of yours are 50MV?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 04:31:05 PM by (unknown) »
Less bark, more wag.

boB

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2007, 04:41:14 PM »
Where is the sense terminal going to go ??

Maybe they're hidden on the dark side of the shunts in this picture ?


boB

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 04:41:14 PM by (unknown) »

Drives

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2007, 06:52:34 PM »
White heatsink compound is a poor insulator of electricity, and a good conductor of heat.


http://www.cool-amp.com/cool-amp.htm


This stuff works the best, but I have used Noalox, and Penetrox with good sucess.

On Hockey Pucks, and Stud mount devices, I use Noalox or Penetrox.


The key is getting flat mateing connection points to bolt to each other.  Surface area is important for proper "low resistance" conduction of current.


Over the Christmas Hoilday I supervised an install of a Heat Treat Furnace that had transformer connections rated to handle 4000amps continuous at 150 degrees C....the cool-amp product ensured a nice cool connection the doesn't even show up on a IR Thermograph picture.


I also strongly recommend stainless steel hardware.  I have had bad problems in the past with cheap galv. and even zinc bolts.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 06:52:34 PM by (unknown) »

Shadow

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2007, 07:01:08 PM »
The bottom two are 200amp 50mv, the top one is 100 amp 50mv. I had thought of using brass bolts as terminals, maybe stainless be better? There are screws to mount the sensor wires.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 07:01:08 PM by (unknown) »

Drives

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2007, 07:26:43 PM »
Brass screws for the sensor wires is standard.  You could use large brass bolts to bolt the whole thing together...I just worry they might stretch over time and start a loose connection.  Your call, go brass, and check tightness at least twice a year, or go stainless, and check it at 3-5 year intervals.  

If you don't have the brass bolts handy, I am guessing the stainless would be cheaper?  Do I hear a trip to the hardware store anyone??  :-)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 07:26:43 PM by (unknown) »

Drives

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2007, 07:31:35 PM »
My first sentence was supposed to read "White heatsink compound is a poor conductor of electricity".  Rather, it is an insulator.  


Thank God I am not being graded on this!  :-)

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 07:31:35 PM by (unknown) »

TomW

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2007, 07:33:57 PM »
boB;


See those tiny holes near the inner side of each end piece?


Threaded for machine screws and thats the sense connection.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 07:33:57 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2007, 07:48:54 PM »
You'll also do well to put the power terminal on one side on TOP of the stack and on the other side on the BOTTOM.  Clean the terminal and shunt interface just as you did the between-shunts interfaces.


Be sure both meter wires are connected to the same shunt.  (It's hard to fail on this given that the top shunt covers the meter terminals on the others.)

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 07:48:54 PM by (unknown) »

TomW

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You have mail!!
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2007, 08:16:33 PM »
Dean;


See subject!


Tom

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 08:16:33 PM by (unknown) »

maker of toys

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2007, 11:02:06 PM »
one dodge we use for making better connections to 100KW+ electromagnets is to embed a soft silver mesh between the cable lug and the bus / contact block.

there is also a rub-on silver-plating compound and a "silver goop" (for excluding oxygen and improving conductivity) made for this kind of project. . . (the most common oxides of silver conduct much better than the common oxides of copper, brass or aluminum.)  I'll try and remember to get the brand-name tomorrow.


we also use hard (phosphor?) bronze bolts.  (not brass and DEFINITELY not stainless)  sometimes we use O.F. copper barstock and rivet things together. . . but that's not as common; usually a rivet is the last step before a vacuum brazing operation.


tinning the shunt blocks with 60/40 solder before assembly, then re-heating them to reflow the solder might help, too. I'd do this before attaching the cables, and use a stainless bolt for this stage, then do the final wiring with bronze.  If you go to this extreme, make sure to wash ALL flux residue off before the reflow step. A sealed pocket of still-active flux is an invitation to a melt-down.


-Dan

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 11:02:06 PM by (unknown) »

maker of toys

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2007, 11:06:06 PM »
sorry-  ". . . reheat after assembly but before wiring . . ." is more what i was TRYING to say.


-D

« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 11:06:06 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2007, 01:41:57 AM »
For the accuracy you need I agree with the others that you can connect them in parallel.


The absolute accuracy will not be good but plenty good enough for batteries.


Take the power and sense leads from diametrically opposite ends.


Unless the blades are brazed into the blocks I wouldn't risk tinning the faces, if they are soldered they will probably alter value.


If you have a reference accurate enough you could choose the sense points that gave you best accuracy, otherwise you will have to take what you get.

Flux

« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 01:41:57 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2007, 03:10:36 AM »
Changed my mind on this.


Feed diagonally top of say lhs bottom rhs, keep small shunt in the middle, but connect sensing to one of the outer shunts. This may be less accurate but will be more consistent long term than mixing sensing between shunts.

Flux

« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 03:10:36 AM by (unknown) »

Drives

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2007, 10:08:59 AM »
Dan:


Any reason why you would "DEFINITELY" not use stainless hardware?  I was always taught that Stainless, Bellville washers, and silver plated connections were considered the "text book/best way" to make all electrical connections.


I am curious, I always like to learn something new!  :-)

« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 10:08:59 AM by (unknown) »

maker of toys

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2007, 12:26:59 PM »
Flux:  most of the shunts I deal with have the sense-element silver-soldered into the brass block. . . . so if you use a low-melt solder to assemble the multiple shunts, it's not a problem.  Other brands may vary?


  I agree with the opposing corners for power and sense argument;  I'm not sure that the position of the low-value shunt matters IF you get good contact. . . but in a marginal contact situation, you're probably right that it would be best in the center.


Dean: there's a lot of folklore in the high-current connection fraternity. the one thing all the anectdotes seem to agree on is the libral use of silver plating. . . . and the avoidance of zinc plated hardware. there seems to be some voodoo associated with threaded hardware. (some use silver paint on the threads, a few, lead antisieze, most use silver goop or dry threads.)  


All I can relate is personal experience, which says stainless hardware in copper busses lead to expensive failures.


  I suspect that our folklores are different because of the environmental differences:  industry vs environmentally controlled science lab.  (the lab is a nicer building inside than my office. . .) where I am, we optimise for conductivity and don't worry overmuch about environmental factors. For a shunt or a magnet that's riding the ragged edge of thermal feasability, the extra resistance of the oxide layer in the stainless creates higher resistance and higher interface temperatures. . . =more stress on the part and skewed accuracy.  plus, with the amount of torque I'd be putting on a stainless bolts to assemble the shunts with good contact pressures, in my experience, the stainless bolts tend to gall their threads and jam, leading to uneven contact pressures and sometimes even problems getting the thing apart. even with that, stainless is undoubtably a better choice than plated carbon steel . . . the zinc corrodes too easily and iron oxide doesn't conduct worth a damn.


we use the same connection methodology (bronze hardware, silver plating, silver mesh) for connections with high currents (30Ka+) and ultra-fast risetimes(~1/2 ns.) again, it's a question of what you're optimising for; in our case conductivity in a controlled environment is the driving factor. That said, I've never had one of our lugs work loose with bronze and silver mesh. . . . but did have to make a new current bus for a magnet winding that had been wired with stainless. (no belville washers, just a split lockwasher, and tapped directly into the copper. it got loose and burned up the contact block. 10 tons of magnet isn't something you just toss in the mill to renew the mating surface on. . . so you could say, 'once burned, twice shy. . .')


for your applications,(motor drives, heat-treating ovens, etc)  stainless would (obviously) be ok, maybe even recommended if you get a lot of odd process vapors.  I'd be worried about differential thermal expansion coefficients, myself, but if you've had good reliablility doing it your way, then your solution is well matched to your application.


the belville washer trick is new to me (I like it on the face of it);  maybe that's the secret to dealing with differing thermal co-efficients?


-Dan

« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 12:26:59 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2007, 01:52:54 PM »
Right.


Splitting the sense lines between shunts adds the resistance of the joints between shunts to the shunt resistance.  This resistance is nontrivial compared to the resistance of the shunts themselves and will induce significant errors.  So the sense lines should both be on a particular shunt.


Feeding the power diagonally distributes the joint resistance voltage drop evenly between the shunts, so each shunt sees roughly the same voltage and pulls a proportional share of the current.  (Same principle as feeding paralleled batteries diagonally to even the current load.)  I'm not sure how it works out with unequal shunts (and don't have time to compute it now).  But if there are any issues, putting the odd one in the middle as Flux recommends (and hooking the sense lines to one of the majority type) should minimize them.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 01:52:54 PM by (unknown) »

Drives

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2007, 12:36:19 PM »
Dan:


 I think you hit the nail right on the head.


"I suspect that our folklores are different because of the environmental differences:  industry vs environmentally controlled science lab.  (the lab is a nicer building inside than my office. . .) where I am, we optimise for conductivity and don't worry overmuch about environmental factors."


I work in places that are very unfriendly to exposed metals.  For that reason, I rarely run into uncoated buss bar anymore.  Most has some kind of "phospate?" coating/plating due to the sesitivity of bare copper to the slightest presence of acidity or oxidizers.  (Chorien in Water treatment, or Ammonia in Waste Water treatment is fun to combat...NOT!)  I could write a book about the survival ability of power electronics in chemical plants, food and beverage, steel, mining, pulp & paper, etc.  Fun Fun Fun!


Also, the maximum frequencies I play with are less than 25KHz....1/2ns is wicked fast..what the heck are you playing with?  :-)  Now I know why your stuff must be of extreme low resistance...my high powered radar experience required "perfect" connections with liberal amounts of the silver "goop".


I have had horrible experiences with correcting "other peoples" workmanship dealing with poor connection preparation, loose connections, and ironically split lock washers failing.  

Here is a good article dealing directly with electrical connections and Belleville washers.  I was told by the senior engineers I learned from many years ago that the Belleville washer was the magic bullet for long lasting high power electrical connections.  Something about the ability to hold torque over varied temps, and large thermal expansion and contraction.


http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_belleville_washers_correctly/


I learned a bunch from your response, thanks.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 12:36:19 PM by (unknown) »

maker of toys

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2007, 04:22:56 AM »
". . . 1/2ns is wicked fast..what the heck are you playing with? . . ."


Lots of fun stuff. things like, in this particular case, particle accelerators. <G>  I end up using a lot of superlatives in my day-to-day activities, along with odd prefixes like femto, atto, tera, peta. . .  it's a living. . . <G>


I hang out on this board because it's nice to deal with things that operate on a human scale and have immediate tangible benefits.


. . . thanks for the link!

« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 04:22:56 AM by (unknown) »

Spelljammer

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Re: 500 amp Shunt
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2007, 12:55:22 PM »
Something to remember about shunts is that they are a known resistance for a piece of metal and it can handle a certain amount of current safely.  In the above examples, all 3 shunts are 50 mv when 1 amp goes through them.  That means that each shunt has a resistance of 0.05 ohms.  If you parallel all three shunts together you will have a few problems.  First, the effective resistance changes to  0.016667 ohms instead of 0.05 ohms.  That means that the shunt is now a 16.7 mv / amp shunt instead of a 50 mv / amp.  So, you would have to alter the sensing wire location.


Secondly, you are using a couple of 200 amp shunts and a single 100 amp.  If you were to put 500 amps through this setup, then about 167 amps would flow through each of the 3 shunts.  That is obviously a problem for the 100 amp shunt.  So, really you could only have 300 amps max because of the weakest link.  You could just use the two 200 amp shunts and have a max of 400 amps.  Although, you would still need to move the sensor lines.


Thirdly, even if you decide to put new sensor line connection points in, you can't just put it in one of the two plates on a given shunt.  Because you would really be dealing with 4 metal plates in two shunts.  Each plate effectively being a 100 amp, 100 mv/amp shunt.


Anyway, not as easy as you thought.  I wouldn't worry about special bolts and silver this and that for 500 amps.  Let's face it, a car starter pulls 400 amps or so and you have seen how a battery is connected.  Not rocket science.  If you get into the really high amps, then you have to think about all the issues discussed above.


A simple solution is to just use a cheap multimeter and a stainless steel bolt.

I'm actually selling a book about homemade shunts so I don't want to give away all the good stuff ( http://www.PoorMansGuides.com ) but here is a pic to help you get started with a 800 amp  1mv/amp shunt.  So, set your meter to mv and hook to the shunt.  And 800 amps would read 800 milivolts.




« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 12:55:22 PM by (unknown) »