Author Topic: Net Metering help needed  (Read 1226 times)

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force9BOAT

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Net Metering help needed
« on: March 16, 2007, 12:38:53 AM »
Hello,


I would like to switch my small RE system to Net Metering (grid tie).  The problem is, I can't find anyone in my area who knows how to do it.  I'm wondering if there is anyone on this board who lives in the Puget Sound Energy (PSE) district (greater Seattle area) who has done this and could give me guidance.


I know I'll need a grid-tie inverter but I'm not qualified to install such a thing in a way that would pass PSE inspection.


Thank you,

Rob

« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 12:38:53 AM by (unknown) »

finnsawyer

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Re: Net Metering help needed
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2007, 07:28:42 AM »
I think you first need to determine if it's worth the investment.  Beyond that, you will have to meet the power company requirements, so, if you still think it is a good idea talk to them.  You already know about the grid-tie inverter.  You'll have to have a licensed electrician install it.  There is no shortcut around those requirements.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 07:28:42 AM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Net Metering help needed
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2007, 03:23:10 PM »
You'll have to have a licensed electrician install it.  There is no shortcut around those requirements.


I was under the impression you only needed to have it permitted, installed to code, and inspected.  (The "licensed contractor" provision - which implies any electrical work is done by a licensed electrician - is usually a requirement for tax rebate programs.)


Is there some regulation I'm unaware of up there in Washington state, or a license requirement on the federal net-metering mandate?  (Licensing and code promulgation is a state-level power so I would be surprised to see it in federal legislation or rules.)

« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 03:23:10 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Net Metering help needed
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2007, 03:25:33 PM »
... only needed to have it permitted, installed to code, and inspected.


Which would mean a homeowner would be able to do it himself if he used UL approved equipment, installed it properly, and coordinated with the local code people before and after.  But you have to be licensed to do electrical work for others...

« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 03:25:33 PM by (unknown) »

vawtman

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Re: Net Metering help needed
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2007, 03:45:07 PM »
Yours in Oregon seems simular to ours in Wisconsin.


http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/incentive2.cfm?Incentive_Code=OR03R&state=OR&Curren
tPageID=1&RE=1&EE=0


 I beleive you can print a version of everything you need to know.


 If theyre not nice call Al Gore LOL

« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 03:45:07 PM by (unknown) »

vawtman

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Re: Net Metering help needed
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2007, 04:14:21 PM »
Oh for goodness sakes wrong state,Stupid me
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 04:14:21 PM by (unknown) »

jmk

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Re: Net Metering help needed
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2007, 06:38:05 PM »
DSIRE: Incentives by State: Incentives in WAPuget Sound Energy's (PSE) Residential Energy Efficiency Rebate Programs ... The Washington State Legislature passed enacted a net-metering law in 1998. ...

www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/maphomeowner.cfm?State=WA&CurrentPageId=1&RE=1&EE=1 - 241k - Cached - Similar pages

[ More results from www.dsireusa.org  


 I googled this up for you.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 06:38:05 PM by (unknown) »

hydrosun

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Re: Net Metering help needed
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2007, 10:27:10 PM »
 I live an hour north of Seattle in Skagit County. I've done a bunch of off grid systems but no grid tie. I just finished wiring my nephews house and pass inspection with a transfer switch for a generator. I can  legally work for family without pay.  When doing inspections for offgrid systems I am officially just  the expert consultant with the homeowner pulling the electrical permit. So I am able to sell the equipment and advise the homeowner on how to install it. I guess some owners require more visual instructions on how things go together.  So the homeowner is definitly  legal to install  on their own.  I'm  busy and relunctant to  travel too far or I'd offer direct assistance.   If you look in Home Power magazine there is a directory of installers. Good luck.

Chris
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 10:27:10 PM by (unknown) »

force9BOAT

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Re: Net Metering help needed
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2007, 02:12:27 PM »
Thank you Chris,


I'll check out Home Power magazine.


Rob

« Last Edit: March 17, 2007, 02:12:27 PM by (unknown) »

finnsawyer

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Re: Net Metering help needed
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2007, 07:43:23 AM »
Over here in Miss-it-again I was told once by a clerk in an electrical supply store that they could not advise me what I needed to satisfy the code, but could only sell me what I wanted.  Of course, the State doesn't make the code available on the Internet.  At least I couldn't find it.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 07:43:23 AM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Here's a link:
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2007, 12:09:18 AM »
You can download the National Electrical Code from Mike Holt's site, among others.  (Do a search to find more.)


Standards organizations, such as the one that writes the electrical code, copyright their standards and sell them.  But in Veeck v. Southern Building Code Congress International the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that when building codes are adopted for regulatory use, their developers lose copyright protection over the documents.  The court found that adopted codes become the law of the jurisdictions involved and can be freely reproduced because "the law is in the public domain."


So anyone can publish the standard - as adopted - without violating copyright.  And since many jurisdictions adopt it unmodified, the original is now PD and a number of web sites (such as the one I linked to) post the whole thing for download.


(The decision was in 2002. SBCCI appealed and the supreme court denied cert.  So it's binding precedent in the Fifth Circuit.  I haven't heard of it being reversed or of other circuits deciding differently.  Meanwhile the code is readily available for downloading.)

« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 12:09:18 AM by (unknown) »

finnsawyer

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Re: Here's a link:
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2007, 06:43:10 AM »
I'm not interested in the National Code but in Michigan's, which could be somewhat different.  For instance, does the National Code require arc fault interrupters on bedroom circuits?  In any case Michigan should have its version of the code available on the Net.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 06:43:10 AM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Here's a link:
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2007, 01:08:55 PM »
I'm not interested in the National Code but in Michigan's, which could be somewhat different.


Actually, it's your city or county's code you're interested in, and (even more importantly) how it's interpreted.


Virtually all jurisdictions adopted the model National Electrical Code - sometimes with alterations.


The thing to do is contact your local building code enforcement department (probably called something like "planning").  Ask them what, if any, deviations the local code has from the NEC (this will be either "none" or a small set.)  Also ask them "What common mistakes people make in home projects that might make them fail an inspection."  (This will tell you what they're looking for and what the local inspectors' interpretations are.)


Then draw up some minimal plans for what you want to do, go to the agency, and ask an inspector or engineer in the office if you're planning it right and what problems to look out for.


In general inspectors are very helpful at the office - you're acknowledging their authority, trying to do things right, and making things simpler for them at inspection time by not having things that need correction and a revisit.  They are NOT helpful with questions on the site:  Then you're using them as an unpaid electrician, plumber, etc. and reducing their performance rating by taking extra time out of their schedule of inspections.


In any case Michigan should have its version of the code available on the Net.


Fat chance.  The organization that designs the "model code", like many other standards organizations, finances its operations by selling copies of the code, at exorbitant prices.  It copyrights the "model code" and tries to convince governments that it retains copyright to it even after it's made law, and gets them to include it by reference rather than legislate it outright.  Then it sues anybody who publishes the code for copyright violation.  I don't know of ANY government that has put the code itself online (though I wouldn't be surprised if a few put online the legislation referencing it and any deviations in their local jurisdiction.)


There are very few online versions of electrical codes.  There are ANY because Veeck decided there SHOULD be, put a copy online, got sued, LOST in federal court, LOST in the appeals court, petitioned for a rehearing en banc, WON that, and the Supreme Court decided not to hear the standards' organization's appeal


That means people who post it IN THE FIFTH CIRCUIT are reasonably safe for now, but anybody who posts it in another district may be sued and have to go through the whole thing again - and maybe lose at appeal, after which the supreme court may hear it and reverse it nationally - in which case those who published it in the Fifth Circuit are back on the hook for big bucks for copyright violation.


So you won't find any city or county publishing their code - which is a derived work of the model code (even if it's public domain due to being an act of a legislature).

« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 01:08:55 PM by (unknown) »

finnsawyer

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Re: Here's a link:
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2007, 08:52:48 AM »
So, Government by the people, for the people?  Here in Miss-it-again the state mandates it and the counties enforce it.  Why else would the counties put in unrealistic time lines for building a house if you are doing the work yourself.  For instance, you are expected to go from putting in the temporary power pole to the final electrical inspection in just six months.  Why should the county give a damn how long you take.  They are still getting their taxes on the building while you are building it.  I've been building my own house.  The rate of building is determined by my budget.  I've had to get get two electrical permits.  I didn't really mind that since I'm living in it and don't have to pay rent and some years had passed, but the electrical inspector claims I will have to get a third one since the time between the rough-in inspection, which has been done, to the final inspection will exceed six months on the latest permit.  That I will not do.  Just thought I'd vent here a little.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 08:52:48 AM by (unknown) »