Author Topic: Shunt Vs. Short  (Read 2855 times)

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VinceB

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Shunt Vs. Short
« on: May 04, 2007, 02:51:46 AM »
Hey guys,


It's me again. I have finally built a shunt controller that works! But hey, I still have to find power resistors or something equivalent to act as the dump load. The commercial ones are not cheap. Hence why I thought about the possibility of a short controller, which saves the cost of buying a dump load. Why not short the wind mill output with the use of a power FET, activated by a voltage controller regulator ? A diode would be required to avoid shorting the battery, but still, is it feasible? Are there any drawbacks to such a system? The diode would create a voltage drop, but what else?


I would also like to know what do you guys use as dump loads? I'm trying to find old power resistors, but don't know exaclty where to look. I'm thinking 1 ohm, 200 watts. I'd put three in parallel. My genny is a 8' Hugh design.


As usual, your comments are welcome

Vince

« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 02:51:46 AM by (unknown) »

AbyssUnderground

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Re: Shunt Vs. Short
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2007, 12:42:31 AM »
I would think shorting a wind generator could burn the stator out but using a dumpload wont, correct me if Im wrong.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 12:42:31 AM by (unknown) »

rossw

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Re: Shunt Vs. Short
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2007, 04:13:02 AM »
Even if it didn't burn out the stator:


 (a) the inrush current through the FET would be MASSIVE.

     I monitored the current from my little 1KW mill at LOW SPEED,

     when it was charging at a mere 2 amps into my batteries (48V)

     and the short-circuit current jumped to over 20 amps for a

     couple of seconds while it slowed and stopped.


 (b) Even if the stator, wiring and FETs could handle it, think of

     the forces on the blades. They will have a major momentum, if

     you short the output, they're going to try to "snap off"


PWM with low duty-cycle MIGHT cut the mustard, but its still a HECK

of a lot of current when you're turning on, and a very large inductive

spike when turning off the short.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 04:13:02 AM by (unknown) »

s4w2099

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Re: Shunt Vs. Short
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2007, 01:49:05 PM »
If the alternator is strong enough for the blades there should not be a problem if you short it. The blades will spin powerlessly. I dont have a regular dump load resistor I just use a welding rod as a resistance. Thats almost like a short. I have not had any problems even at 60Mph.



I would also like to have some more feedback about this method please.

Thank you

« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 01:49:05 PM by (unknown) »

VinceB

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Re: Shunt Vs. Short
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2007, 06:15:26 PM »
I always thought it was not a problem to short a wind generator. Even Hugh recommends to do so if the winds are too high and there is a risk of breakdown. Of course, the peak current is very high, but of very short duration. The maximum pulse current supported by my IRF3205 is actually 440 Amp!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 06:15:26 PM by (unknown) »

jimovonz

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Re: Shunt Vs. Short
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2007, 06:42:11 PM »
There was a discussion on this here: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/8/21/0730/53769

I don't think that shorting the turbine is a good idea - especially if it is isolated from the battery via a diode. The idea of using a dump load is to 'siphon' off excess power so as to maintain a healthy battery while still maintaining a load on the turbine. If you short the turbine to regulate the battery voltage then the only place that the excess energy is lost is in your stator. Basically the most power is lost where ever there is the most resistance. If your dump load has less resistance than your stator then the stator is shouldering the greatest load. If the battery is not isolated then most of the current in the short will come from the battery (quite a lot too I imagine...) but using pwm you could keep the pulse length short enough to maintain your system voltage. It then becomes a matter of how much your FETs and batteries can handle... It is really not a big deal to make a decent capacity dump load for little money: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/2/28/114556/473
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 06:42:11 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Shunt Vs. Short
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2007, 11:05:48 PM »
Shorting the mill puts a big drag on the blades, slowing them.  If the drag is adequate (i.e. the alternator is sufficiently "powerful", the coils and wiring are low enough resistance, and the wind isn't so high that the torque overcomes the drag and keeps the mill spinning fast) the blades stall, greatly reducing the torque, and the mill slows further.


The mill quickly ends up spinning very slowly - just fast enough to create enough generation to produce enough counter-torque to balance the startup torque of the stalled blades.


But there are two downsides to this:


 1) When you short it you dump the energy from its inertia into the coils as heat.  You also produce an extremely high current, which suddenly produces a correspondingly high torque, jolting the mill's structure.  (But you don't want to put this load on slowly, because that leaves the wind pumping in more energy to be dissipated as heat in the genny during the load ramp-up.)


 2) If the braking isn't adequate to stall the blades you end up dissipating a LOT of power continuously in the genny, likely destroying it.


You could start the braking with a load resistance in series with the short, to dissipate some of the power from decelerating the rotor and blades.  But the more resistance, the less braking torque, the longer the mill spins, the more power it collects to be dissipated in the braking system, and the lower the wind speed where the wind overcomes the brakes and keeps the mill spinning (and burning up).

« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 11:05:48 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Shunt Vs. Short
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2007, 12:57:51 AM »
I can't add much that has not been already covered.


Some machines can be shorted to bring them to a stop, others will not respond and will burn out.


If the machine will stop reliably under all conditions, then it is ok to stop it occasionally. I would not attempt to use stopping as a regular method of control except on tiny machines. The occasional stress during stopping may not matter but if you use it as a method of control you may (will) run into trouble.


On/off control is a poor method of charging batteries. The surge during stopping does not come within the short term mosfet rating, it will be several seconds and you need to use the dc rating.


Someone suggested pwm shorting, this is interesting but it is not something to do without consideration of the other effects. It effectively becomes a boost converter circuit and you need fast rectifiers and possibly snubbers otherwise you will wipe the mosfets out.


If you can't afford dump resistors then consider lengths of iron fence wire run at low current density or even welding rods ( preferably stainless)as someone suggested . Stainless steel strip works perfectly well. Crate banding strip would also work if you keep current density down so the stuff doesn't get too hot. Plenty of cheap ways to make low voltage resistors.


Flux

« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 12:57:51 AM by (unknown) »

hydrosun

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Re: Shunt Vs. Short
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2007, 04:31:58 PM »
I usually rewire 120 volt electric heaters to create parallel paths and lower resitance to be able to use them at lower voltages. I've also used stainless steel bicyle spokes as heat resistors, they glow a nice cherry red. I don't remember the resistance of each spoke, but I may have strung several together. I'd bend the end into a circle and use a small stainless screw and nut  to connect wires to it.

Chris
« Last Edit: May 06, 2007, 04:31:58 PM by (unknown) »

s4w2099

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Re: Shunt Vs. Short
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2007, 04:48:45 PM »
Wow, I dont think you want to let it get cherry red. If it fails you are dead.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2007, 04:48:45 PM by (unknown) »

SparWeb

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Re: Shunt Vs. Short
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2007, 05:06:50 PM »
When the fan died in a small space heater I once had, I took it apart and discovered that it had three heating elements in it: two in series and one on its own, for a high/low setting heater.  When each is split up, I found I had three 4-ohm elements.  Perfect for dumping heat from my generator.  Anyone wanting to do the same should just poke around a junk yard.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 05:06:50 PM by (unknown) »
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