Author Topic: Buck Converter for Wind Turbine Help  (Read 6799 times)

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mukunthko

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Buck Converter for Wind Turbine Help
« on: June 11, 2007, 10:47:37 AM »
Hi there


I have a small vertical axis sailwing wind turbine. I have been thinking of using multiple cycle dynamos on a flywheel instead of an alternator. I am planning to rectify the outputs of these dynamos indivdually and connect them in Series. The series connection is due to the fact that I bought a marine DC-DC buck converter that converts 15-65 VDC to 13.6 VDC. I have a 12V battery.


THe dynamos are rated at 6V, 3 W. I am planning to use 4 of them and after voltage drops at rectifiers, I would barely get 15 volts at a good windspeed.


Hence I have been thinking of using an adapter. Possibly a 24 V one connected to the mains. If this is connected in series with the dynamos, the input voltage can be firther stepped up. But I dont want to be using too much power from the grid. The DC-DC converter has a parasitic power consumption of 100mA at 12V which is about 1.5 W.


I am not entirely sure how I can limit the current from the adapter. I dont want to use any more than 100mA at 24V from the adapter. Does the current depend on the load characteristics? I am not sure what the load characteristics are going to be like.


I also have some 5mF capacitors to smoothen the output of the rectifiers connected to the dynamos before I connect them in series. Will the capacitor need to be connected in parallel or series with the rectifier?


Are there any precautions I must take before wiring or connecting the rectifier outputs in series to prevent shorting the system or can I just go ahead and connect the negative and positive terminals of adjacent rectifiers together?


I am a total idiot when it comes to electronics. Could someone help me out please?


Thanks

Mukunth

« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 10:47:37 AM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: Buck Converter for Wind Turbine Help
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2007, 02:00:26 PM »
You have defined your electronic - electrical capabilities.


Do not use the scheme you are thinking, it is not the proper way, neither the use of several bike dynamos.


First describe what are you using as power for the flywheel.


Then inform on the specifications of the buck converter,it may not be the proper one for the scheme you are thinking.


The buck converter may overload the power source if it does not have current limiting or possibly no MPPT capabilities.


Nando

« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 02:00:26 PM by (unknown) »

mukunthko

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Re: Buck Converter for Wind Turbine Help
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2007, 01:51:22 AM »
Nando


This is the datasheet for the Buck converter. The model is 36-12-6 ISP.


http://www.majorpower.com/newmar/dcdc-is.html


The flywheel is going to be connected to the shaft of the wind turbine. I am planning to use a pressure cooker gasket around the flywheel. The dynamos will run off this flywheel.


Why do you think this system is not the right way? what could go wrong with it?


Thanks

Mukunth

« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 01:51:22 AM by (unknown) »

Nando

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Re: Buck Converter for Wind Turbine Help
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2007, 09:17:57 AM »
Mukunth:


Basically, you are having a stalled wind mill using the down converter since it may load to maximum the wind mill once a voltage higher than battery voltage is reached for the PWM converter to work.


The converter tries always to put maximum current into the load if the voltage is just below the reference voltage


The idea of a fly wheel and against it the bike generators will present a starting load to the wind mill which may force the starting to much higher wind velocity.


The use of bike dynamos is not a good idea because they are low life products, (quality) and they are about 5 to 10,000 hours.


Using the wind mill together with the grid power is not practical, it makes every thing difficult to make work together and you do not have the electrical experience to do such arrangement.


Suggestion: Use a single generator with the right voltage to charge the battery bank and possibly use a charge controller to protect the battery .


Nando

« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 09:17:57 AM by (unknown) »

mukunthko

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Re: Buck Converter for Wind Turbine Help
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2007, 10:08:43 AM »
Thanks for your input Nando. All I'm working on at the moment is a very crude prototype. I would only get a peak power of 12 W even if all the 4 dynamos were running on their maximum speed. And I only want this system to work for 1 year or 2. I am going to pull it down and build a better one after that.


I didnt quite understand the concept of loading and how that could stall the turbine but let me try and explain to you what I have understood. correct me if I'm wrong.


The buck converter automatically shuts down at voltages below its range (15-65 V). It also has a current limiting capability (although I dont totally understand what that means). So when the turbine tries to get upto speed, I think the low voltage power could get used up in heating up the coils, capacitors and wires.


This is the reason why I wanted to connect to the grid and ensure that the input voltage is always kept within the range. I dont seem to be able to think of any other way.


The starting speed of the turbine will definitely go down with this system. But I thought ant other turbine with a generator connected to it would start with a starting load unless we have a centrifugal clutch or an induced magnetic field proportional to the rpm on the generator. Correct me if I am wrong please.


I am planning to use a charge controller on the battery. I have attached a rough schematic of my system here. I've called the wind charge controller as a high voltage reconnect as I have a solar charge controller in it as well.


Thanks

Mukunth




« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 10:08:43 AM by (unknown) »

stephent

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Re: Buck Converter for Wind Turbine Help
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2007, 03:49:22 PM »
Umm,, what's the gizmo's between the recfifiers and the buck converter? The ones in the plain wire leads from the seriesed rectifiers to the buck converter. Hopefully not capacitors.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 03:49:22 PM by (unknown) »

mukunthko

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Re: Buck Converter for Wind Turbine Help
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2007, 03:55:29 AM »
Oops. They are capacitors. I wanted to try and use them to filter and smoothen the full wave rectified DC from the rectifiers before adding the voltages and connecting them to a buck converter.


Is there a problem with that?

« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 03:55:29 AM by (unknown) »

alancorey

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Re: Buck Converter for Wind Turbine Help
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2007, 02:33:53 PM »
Yup.  DC won't flow through capacitors.  The ones across each bridge are OK, but the two at the ends of that rectangle above the buck converter need to go.  You could put them across the buck converter inputs if you want more filtering/storage.  I agree with Nando that the scheme is a little crazy though.  Both mechanically and trying to get the voltage up so you can use a buck converter to bring it back down.


> I have a small vertical axis sailwing wind turbine


Is this the one at http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/2/23/124116/813 or a similar one?  There you mention 40 RPM.  


> The starting speed of the turbine will definitely go down with this system. But I  

> thought ant other turbine with a generator connected to it would start with a

> starting load unless we have a centrifugal clutch or an induced magnetic field

> proportional to the rpm on the generator. Correct me if I am wrong please.


More complex than needed.  A generator won't charge a battery until it's producing more voltage than what the battery already has.  The voltage produced by a generator varies linearly with the speed of the generator.  So at startup the generator isn't putting out enough voltage for the battery to draw any current from it.  You'll see cut-in mentioned often here, that's when the generator's turning fast enough to start charging the battery.  You don't have to do anything extra.  When things are turning fast enough the battery will start charging.  As they turn faster the voltage (and eventually current) will increase, which in turn causes more mechanical load on the windmill.  In some small sense it's almost self-regulating for a narrow range of windspeed because the faster the mill turns the more voltage it produces, so the battery draws more current, which causes more mechanical load, which slows it back down.  Until you get a lot of wind at once, or this has been going on long enough that the battery's gotten charged.


You can let a lead-acid battery get up to 14.2 volts or more on peaks without hurting it, but for sustained high wind conditions you should use a dump load controller or shunt regulator to keep the voltage down.  That just applies a load by dumping off electricity into resistors when the voltage gets too high, which also works to prevent gradual overcharging.


The part about the generator not putting a load on the windmill until the voltage causes cut-in is only true if the generator doesn't cog.  Bicycle dynamos do cog.  Cogging is almost like friction in that it doesn't gain you anything, it's just waste.  It's caused by attraction of the magnets to steel parts inside the generator.  Peter Dinges just did a couple of good posts on decogging motor conversions at http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/5/31/212633/814 and http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/6/12/152738/467  DC motors, bicycle dynamos, motor conversions and iron-cored generators in general cog.  Axial flux and air-cored generators don't.  See http://www.otherpower.com/woodax.html and http://www.otherpower.com/pmg2.html for a couple of air-cored ones.


I think you should build an axial flux or air core alternator.  Make it as big in diameter as you practically can.  Running at low RPMs just means building a fairly expensive generator and then not utilizing most of its capability because of the low RPM.  It's like buying a bigger engine so you never have to run it above an idle.  Use as much magnet (Neo) as you can afford.  Get it all built except the coils, then you can wind a test coil and spin it up and see what happens.  Use a drill or something to turn it at something close to the right speed.  See how much voltage you get out of one coil with a small number of turns (it'll be AC voltage) and then multiply by the number of coils you'll have.  You can adjust the number of turns up and down once you've done a simple test coil.  Voltage will be linearly proportional to the number of turns on all the coils, the RPM, and the strength of the magnetic field.  Until you run out of space that is.  You'll need to keep an eye on the total resistance of the wire you're using because it will limit how much power you can get out.  More/stronger magnets will give you more power with the same wire, but probably with more expense.  3 phase designs work better than single phase.  Motor conversions aren't out of the question if you can decog them, and the F&P motors look great for low speeds (but still cog).


I would put the buck converter someplace safe and not use it.  Wind is wild, and it's not unusual to get a 10:1 or more variation in voltage.  It fries things, even without lightning to help.  


  Alan

« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 02:33:53 PM by (unknown) »

stephent

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Re: Buck Converter for Wind Turbine Help
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2007, 05:14:46 PM »
Caps are good for filtering.

But in that spot, they will filter out the added together DC you are trying to collect very nicely....(they will block it).

Using 4 dynamos/gennys in series is going to be problematic, and total output won't be 4x of one.

Much easier to use one that will do the work of those 4 (a 12 watt genny is a very small one).

« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 05:14:46 PM by (unknown) »

mukunthko

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Re: Buck Converter for Wind Turbine Help
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2007, 02:02:25 AM »
Hmm Thanks for the advice. I did want to build my own axial flux generator but wasnt too sure if I could do it as I'd only read about it. I guess thats the best way to go forward then.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 02:02:25 AM by (unknown) »

alancorey

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Re: Buck Converter for Wind Turbine Help
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2007, 01:19:04 PM »
Building an axial flux is probably going to require some machining, which is partly why I haven't built one yet.  If you do it from scratch you'll need to cut the rotor disks out of thick steel and get them set up so they can turn on a set of bearings without wobbling.  One shortcut is the use a disk brake assembly out of a car or truck for the disk and bearings.  Here's an Otherpower version: http://www.otherpower.com/bdwm53.html  and http://www.otherpower.com/davesmill.html


You'll want the disks themselves, bearings, and enough shaft to attach to your windmill.  Probably the best bet is to visit a local junkyard and tell them what you're trying to do.  You don't need a specific brand or year, so that could make it cheaper.  Just pick something you can still get replacement bearings for.


Here's a general PDF on axial flux, you can also find more on Hugh's site: http://www.sparweb.ca/Forum/AXIAL_FLUX_HowItWorks.pdf  That's what most people here are building so there shouldn't be any lack of pictures and information.


What might be different about yours is that it's being built for lower power and lower speeds.  If you've got any suitable wire or magnets that may influence what you build.    The production of electricity follows Faraday's law (and Lenz's law).  You can find lots of stuff on the web about those, but here's a copy of the basic equation I stole somewhere:




From this you can see that it's not just the amount of flux (B) that matters, but the rate of change of flux.  Usually you'll have coils going over first a north pole and then a south pole, or one side over north while the other's over south then the first side goes over south and the second over the next north, so the field gets flipped.  What I've been wondering is since this is for low speed and low power if it might be better to use a lot of small magnets and have lots of flux transitions per revolution rather than a few big expensive magnets.  Maybe 24 or 36 small magnets instead of 12 or so big ones.  Maybe it doesn't make a difference since the area of the coil (A) is also a factor there.  Little magnets are cheaper though.


You can also buy most of the parts for an axial flux from Otherpower, see http://www.forcefieldmagnets.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=22_30 but you'll want to make some provision for being lower speed.  Maybe get a 24 or 48 volt stator to get 12 volts at low speeds.  You'll need more turns of finer wire than the usual 12 volt setup.  You could also look around on here at what other people are using for generators on VAWTs.  Some are using axial flux, some F&Ps, some gearing up, some not.  I found an F&P stator a few weeks ago so that's what I'm planning to use.  I'm thinking along the lines of a Lenz2: http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/9/27/23238/2609


  Alan

« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 01:19:04 PM by (unknown) »