Author Topic: Tachometer wiring  (Read 8594 times)

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SparWeb

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Tachometer wiring
« on: October 05, 2007, 03:49:08 AM »
I have been experimenting with an automobile tachometer on my windmill for a while.  So far I've only had some odd results that I'd like to share.  First, I discovered that when my inverter is turned on, the RPM needle on the tach will "twitch".  When I disconnect the inverter's ground terminal the twitching stops.  Weird.


I haven't been getting any reading from the tach in normal operations, but when I gave the generator a free spin on the bench, with the tach attached across the genny's leads, I got a response.  The tach only responded when the genny was going fast enough to generate >12V, so it's no surprise that it doesn't give me a reading.  I am considering using a small transformer to hike up the voltage for the tach's sensitivity.  


I've also been looking at this generic auto tachometer circuit diagram, that can be found in the Application Notes for the LM2917 on National Semiconductor's website.

Would the 20 dollar tachometer that I bought at the surplus store have a similar arrangement of resistors and capacitor protecting the spark input?  I hesitate to take apart such a fragile thing to find out.

More to the point, if I'm going to play around with a transformer to increase the sensitivity, do I have to add anything to prevent the tach from blowing up?


« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 03:49:08 AM by (unknown) »
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Flux

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Re: Tachometer wiring
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2007, 01:10:34 AM »
When you say auto tachometer do you mean a commercial device or the circuit you show.


Auto tachometers have tended to a bit of a nightmare as the ignition waveform is a complete mess. Most of the better commercial ones have solved the problem for car ignition waveforms but they may well not be satisfactory on a windmill.


The 2917 is a very useful chip and will certainly do your job but you will need to be careful to prevent the input stage multiple triggering. The input stage is fast and is a Schmidt with a small amount of backlash. The input signal needed is very small and any harmonic that crosses zero will trigger the input.


You don't say how you are deriving your input signal and I have no idea of your wiring arrangements so it is difficult to help.


The maximum signal input is claimed to be 48v pp but I wouldn't risk that much. It can be done with a small input transformer fed from a pair of ac lines that gives a few volts ac. You need a decent filter with the capacitor close to pin 1 and ground. You can use something like .22uF and you should have plenty of input volts to use a good big series resistor, try something like 47k. Even then you may get false triggering from high frequency noise from inverters or charge controllers. You need to be very careful about how you supply the ground to your 2917 circuit board. Not so bad if you have an analogue meter but if the tacho output goes to other circuits then there is much more chance of spikes coming in this route.


On one machine with a boost converter in close proximity to the tacho circuit I eventually had to resort to an opto isolator. I connected another diode in inverse parallel with the led and fed it through a series resistor from the ac lines. The photo transistor had a resistor in the collector and the collector was capacitively coupled to the 2917 input pin, not forgetting a return to ground resistor on the input pin.


I always use the 8 pin 2917, the more external pins you have the more likely you are to collect spikes from bad board layout.


If you use a small transformer for the trigger signal and you still have trouble with the suggested filter you could make it a 2 pole filter but it shouldn't be needed. feeding the secondary leads of the transformer a couple of times through a ferrite ring may remove common mode spikes. Grounding the core of the transformer to your 2917 board ground may help and if you have a luxury transformer with Faraday screen between windings, then ground that to the tacho ground.


Don't keep the input circuit of your Fig 14, that is not the way to go with a windmill and to be perfectly honest I doubt if it is the way to go for ignition either, but no doubt it sold a few 2917s for National semiconductor.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 01:10:34 AM by (unknown) »

SparWeb

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Re: Tachometer wiring
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2007, 10:44:18 AM »
Thank you for volunteering to help here.  Despite what I thought was a detailed posting, I need to give you more info.  As usual, it's very difficult to ask questions when I don't know what I'm talking about!  :-)  


I posted the diagram to show my research and not to imply I'm building that from scratch.  I bought a commercial auto tach as a "compromise" between insufficient knowledge and insufficient budget.  I do not have the skill to wire this thing up myself (but I'm working on it), and am not interested in getting RPM data at all costs.  If it takes time to coax it into working, so be it, I do this for the fun of fiddling.


I will post a diagram so that we can discuss this more fruitfully.


Thanks Flux.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 10:44:18 AM by (unknown) »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

SparWeb

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Re: Tachometer wiring
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2007, 12:43:51 PM »


Here is a diagram of what I'm experimenting with.  The top diagram is what's currently installed, and doesn't work.  It wasn't a surprise, but I thought I would at least give it a chance.  The change shown underneath would require a small transformer to raise the voltage enough for a reading.  This only works if a transformer actually will work at such a low frequency, but I'm going to give it a try anyway.  The worst thing that will happen is that I will learn something.


I have a few scavenged ferrite rings and various sizes of capacitors, so I can try many your suggestions.  I will report back any results.


Compounding the problem is noise from the inverter.  At least I can shut that off while I'm testing everything else.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 12:43:51 PM by (unknown) »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

Flux

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Re: Tachometer wiring
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2007, 01:22:27 PM »
This is a bit hopeless, we have no idea what is in that tacho. It does at least seem to be voltage driven, many were current driven through a crude form of current transformer.


The ignition circuit would produce peaks on the primary side of the coil up to about 400v with lots of ringing. The filtering must already be included internally so I would forget the input filter, as it will just reduce the volts.


To work with a voltage output waveform similar to the input the transformer will need to be rated for lots more than your alternator voltage. Something like 110 to 220v at a few VA should be ok. it probably doesn't matter a lot if the core saturates and the output waveform contains a lot of 3 rd harmonic. The winding resistance may limit things to a safe current but you can keep R1 as a low value to prevent excess current. If you need to use a lower voltage transformer then the resistor will be needed.


I wouldn't bother with C1 and for a start I would omit R2 and C2 and just chance the tacho's internal filtering. The ignition waveform is diabolical and there must be adequate internal filtering.


The one thing that does bother me is that the ignition waveform has a unidirectional step of near 12v as well as the HF high voltage ripple. The actual internal sensing may require the presence of this dc step.


If things don't work with the transformer alone then include R2 at perhaps 1k and replace C2 with a zener of 12 to 15v with the cathode connected to the tacho sense. This way you will be applying a dc step of about 12v positive on to the ground reference. This will look very similar to the filtered ignition waveform.


Good luck, I have not seen many car tachos using a common  design. In the early days they were all different and most used a monostable with discrete transistors. Modern ones may be based on the 2917 with some clever filtering. If so the 2917 requires a signal to cross zero and the dc component should not be required.


They are designed for a specific job and persuading them to do other jobs may may not be easy.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 01:22:27 PM by (unknown) »

rippersoftware

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Re: Tachometer wiring
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2007, 03:24:06 PM »
Hugh Piggott has used this LM2917 circuit to control loads by sensing the RPM of the 3 phase alternator.  Here is a URL for the circuit:


http://www.scoraigwind.com/circuits/index.htm


May be helpful to see how this is working within the confines of an actual wind application.


RipperSoftware

« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 03:24:06 PM by (unknown) »