Author Topic: Maximum generator output  (Read 1503 times)

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imsmooth

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Maximum generator output
« on: February 19, 2008, 02:28:41 AM »
I am in the testing phase of my F&P generator.  I have a 23g and 20g stator.  I am having some slanted neo magnets made in china to reduce the cogging.  I have already rounded the iron edges which has cut down on cogging by half.

I will continue to add pictures as I progress.  Here are some current pictures for my testing harness
here



I have a question.  If I can spin the rotor as fast as I want before the stator wire melts from overheating, is there a limitation to how much power a fixed wire-diameter stator can generate?  Or, will it continue to yield more power with a faster changing magnetic field?  I am guessing that the RI^2 loss is a factor, but I do not know how much.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 02:28:41 AM by (unknown) »

windstuffnow

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2008, 09:37:01 PM »
I think you sort of answered your own question... "spin the rotor as fast as I want before the stator wire melts from overheating".  The only real limitation is the resistance of the windings.  Ohms law predicts a circuit that is 50% efficient, if you measure the ohms in the windings you can find the point where it will reach that point using ohms law.  This is the point where your input would be 2x output.  The faster you spin it, forcing it to produce more power, the lower the efficiency becomes and requires much more input to produce a lower output until as you said it will burn up.

.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 09:37:01 PM by (unknown) »
Windstuff Ed

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2008, 12:47:07 AM »
For air gap alternators the limit will be the wire temperature and the point at which it burns out.


With iron cored alternators you also have the possibility that the leakage reactance may become a limiting factor. The F&P is designed as a motor relying on some of the characteristics of stepper motors. Having individual long salient poles rather than distributed slots it is more likely to be affected by leakage reactance than other designs. I am inclined to suspect that if you push it hard enough it will limit at constant current ( constant power out into a battery) an no matter how fast you drive it you will get no more out. What I can't tell you is whether this limit will be within its thermal limit ( I would guess that it is with ferrite magnets and probably it could be with neo).


Think of the classic cycle dynamo as the ideal example of reactance limiting, it doesn't blow the bulbs even if you freewheel down hill at crazy speeds.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 12:47:07 AM by (unknown) »

Norm

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2008, 07:24:07 AM »
Yep....as soon as he spins it fast enough and

reaches the point where it burns up....he should

make a note of that and post it!

   LOL !  (not really, but I have done similar

things like 12 volts to a 3.6 grass clippers....

Wow ! That works real good....until the Magic

Smoke
starts escaping)

« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 07:24:07 AM by (unknown) »

elvin1949

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2008, 09:11:59 AM »
Norm

 Try 120 volts into 12 volt windshield wiper motor.

Will last about 45 seconds [DODGE_1975 model]

 Real fast though.

later

Elvin
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 09:11:59 AM by (unknown) »

imsmooth

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2008, 12:18:48 PM »
Ed -  your answer touches on some of the physics I want to study on this.  When you say measure the resistance am I measuring the resistance of one phase?  What do I have to do since this is a three phase generator?  Also, how do I determine at what point I reach maximum efficiency?  Is there an article I can read on the internet?


I am curious what happens when I replace the generator's ceramics which the slanted neo magnets.  Right now I can get 800W at 700rpm with the 0.8mm wire stator.  I am also considering adding to the winds, but I am holding off until I know how much wattage it takes to spin the rotor.  I am only planning on using an 8-10' diameter blade.


Jonathan

« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 12:18:48 PM by (unknown) »

Norm

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2008, 04:16:31 PM »
Elvin....Yeah ...I can imagine !

« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 04:16:31 PM by (unknown) »

windstuffnow

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2008, 04:42:15 PM »
  Assuming it's 3 phase wired in star, measure 1 phase and double it.   That would be the working resistance. If it's wired in delta the working resistance would be 1/3 that of star.


  .

« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 04:42:15 PM by (unknown) »
Windstuff Ed

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2008, 04:46:27 PM »
And if it DIDN'T limit due to flux leakage, at some speed the induced voltage would be high enough to break through the insulation on the windings and short them out.  THAT would then be the limit.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 04:46:27 PM by (unknown) »

vawtman

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2008, 05:54:10 PM »
ULR

Thats the first time i heard that the induced voltage could be so high has to blow through the windings insulation.

I guess voltage is pressure.

 Could you elaborate on that?

Thanks

« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 05:54:10 PM by (unknown) »

elvin1949

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2008, 07:21:33 PM »
Vawtman

  Just like the gap on a spark plug.

Insulation on wire has a voltage limit.

When you reach that limit it will blow through it.

 Just like the air [insulation]gap on a spark plug.

later

Elvin
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 07:21:33 PM by (unknown) »

imsmooth

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2008, 08:01:09 PM »
Ok. I measured the resistance from one output lead to the common point of the Star configuration.  The resistance is 6.4ohms.  I also measured the resistance across two output leads and the resistance is 12.6 ohms.  What formula do I use to figure out what the matched load is for this resistance?  Is it 12.6 ohms?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 08:01:09 PM by (unknown) »

windstuffnow

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2008, 08:16:25 PM »
12.6 would be correct wired in star....

.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 08:16:25 PM by (unknown) »
Windstuff Ed

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2008, 01:42:28 AM »
What are you trying to do? None of this made any sense and I have looked at an earlier post and I see that you are aiming for grid tie.


I think you are getting lots of things mixed up. With battery charging where you are clamped to a fixed voltage a good compromise between electrical and prop efficiency is to let the efficiency fall to 50% at about 3 times cut in speed. I am fairly sure that is what Ed had in mind.


It is also true that you get maximum power transfer when the source impedance is equal to the load impedance and that would bring the source ( alternator) to 50% efficiency.


Now under ideal working conditions where you are not tied to a battery or fixed voltage you should keep the alternator efficiency as high as you can. Once you let the alternator efficiency drop below 70% you start to run into trouble with heating in the windings. Big commercial alternators run at over 95%, but you won't manage this level in small ones with rectifier loads.


With grid tie the inverter should let you run with volts rising roughly with wind speed so you should be able to keep efficiency high. If the load resistance is equal to the source resistance you will be at 50% so you need to keep your load resistance at least twice the internal impedance to be in a reasonable region.


Now what is the internal impedance of an F & P?  I have no idea. With air gap machines into rectifiers the effective resistance seems to work out to about 1.3 times the winding resistance measured between two terminals in star.


Unfortunately that is not going to work with an F & P because it will also have considerable leakage reactance.


What you need to know is its synchronous impedance.  A rough way to determine this would be to run it at constant speed and load it with a variable resistor until you reduced the output to 1/2 of the open circuit volts. Normally this would be with a balanced 3 phase load but in your case loading after a bridge rectifier would give  an equivalent synchronous impedance referred to the dc line. A strange concept but one that would be relevant to the way you are using it.


If you are prepared to run it as fast as you want, if you load it so as to keep the efficiency up, thermal limits will not apply, it will explode mechanically or more likely break down the winding insulation at the limit. ( I doubt that this limit would be realistic for you to reach that speed from a prop).


When you look at things here don't forget that nearly everything is for direct battery charging with no load matching ( that's just what most people do).


Virtually all commercial engineering for normal alternator uses is for fixed speed balanced 3 phase loading. When you try to do something odd you have to seriously think about where you start chasing information.It may be on the internet ( probably not) but it is up to you to pick what suits your requirements.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 01:42:28 AM by (unknown) »

imsmooth

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2008, 05:31:02 AM »
Thanks Flux.  Your comments as well as others are appreciated.  I will keep everyone up to date on my progress.  As I mentioned, my next step is to to get the magnets which I am ordering today.  I already have the fiberglass resin and will cast them in the rotor.  Then, I will see where I am at as far as wattage output.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 05:31:02 AM by (unknown) »

vawtman

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Re: Maximum generator output
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2008, 05:37:23 PM »
Thanks Elvin and Norm

 I now know for a fact i'm gonna electocute myself.


What a way to go though. :>)


Thanks guys

« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 05:37:23 PM by (unknown) »