Author Topic: turbine output when connected to battery bank  (Read 1750 times)

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dlenox

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turbine output when connected to battery bank
« on: June 19, 2008, 01:48:22 PM »
I have a question that has to do with charging batteries in a fictitious 48v wind turbine system. Did some searches here and did not see the answer.


The basic design of an axial flux wind turbine pretty much states that as the turbine spins faster the voltage output increases and is fairly proportional to it's speed. This seems to make a lot of sense to me when you are talking about resistive loads, but I have problems relating this to a system that involves a connection to a battery bank.


For the sake of my example let's assume that all measurements are DC voltages after the rectifier (all voltages are approximate).


Lets say that I have a fictitious wind turbine that outputs the following voltages when connected to a constant value resistive load:

   40rpm : 35v

   70rpm : 48v

  100rpm : 58v

  150rpm : 68v

  200rpm : 80v

  250rpm : 100v

  280rpm : 120v


I know that the total power produced will vary with the resistance of the load, and that the output will produce some fairly predictable graph.


Knowing these values we now remove the resistive load and then connect the rectifier to our battery bank, inverter, dump load, etc. (no MPPT controller)


I know that one calculation for power is P = V * I, and I know that the battery bank will 'clamp' the output voltage of the turbine to some fairly constant level (once system voltage is obtained).


I am having trouble getting my head around 'total power output' and how it actually works in the system that contains a battery bank.


Since the battery bank 'clamps' the voltage, as the turbine 'spins up' and it's output voltage increases is this what drives up the amps to satisfy the equation for total power, since voltage can not rise? Or does this 'extra' voltage actually just get lost?


Dan Lenox

« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 01:48:22 PM by (unknown) »

DamonHD

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Re: turbine output when connected to battery bank
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2008, 08:02:11 AM »
As I understand (and you should realised that I know nothing) the extra 'potential' open-circuit voltage still nominally exists, but is driving current through the effective series resistance/impedance of the turbine windings, wire to the battery bank and the battery itself.


That will show itself as current 'I' equal to the open-circuit voltage (minus that of the battery) divided by the total resistance as given above.


You may end up, depending on the relative voltages, resistances, etc, losing/dissipating a lot of that I*V power in the windings and wiring rather than getting it into the battery.


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 08:02:11 AM by (unknown) »
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scorman

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Re: turbine output when connected to battery bank
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2008, 09:40:53 AM »
Dan, I read your post and I had similar misunderstanding of battery charging in the past.


If I am off base here, then someone more knowledgeable set me straight


IMHO, You cannot directly connect the battery bank to the generator that can produce 100+ DC volts.

The diff between the generator voltage and battery bank would be the system loss or 50% in the coils of the generator.

In a direct connection, whatever current is going thru the battery is going thru the coils.

So an electronic means is required that translates the variable generator voltage to a more fixed voltage range that allows the battery to effectively charge ...but the generator is still running at >100v ..has to!  volts is proportional to rpm ...period


When you have a resistive load, then if the generator is 1.2 ohms  and the load say is 12 ohms, then you have effectively a voltage divider,

so the actual voltage produced is say 100v across the 12 ohms = 8.33 amps ...

BUT, that same 8.33 amps goes thru the 1.2ohm generator coil for a voltage "drop" of  8.33 x 1.2 = 10 volts

In effect the generator produced 110v, but only 100 was usable ...10 % heated the atmosphere


the total energy produced by the turbine is 833 watts in load (measured) + 83.3 watts in generator = 916.3watts ( per leg) which is what the wind is producing as mechanical power after friction, etc is accounted for.


In building an axial flux, the lower the generator coils resistance ie heavier wire, and the bigger the load resistor still able to run at high Cp, the less energy is wasted up the tower. That is why I like the idea of a variable PWM or a means to switch in discrete loads at certain WS ( reads: voltage)


When your fancy unit feeds the grid, I have no idea how the inverter determines how much load to put on the generator.

Where does it tell you the amps at 220v feeding the house circuits, that you reported earlier in a diff thread at 3 ->4 amps??


but that is at the use end , not the generating end


Stew Corman from sunny Endicott

« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 09:40:53 AM by (unknown) »

SparWeb

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Re: turbine output when connected to battery bank
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2008, 01:44:58 PM »
I think a piece of terminology would help, because your mistake is a common one.


There is a term for the "potential" of the turbine, and it's called "electromotive force".  The phrase is used for the theoretical voltage that can be obtained, but it is only measurable when no current flows.  It is measured in volts, which causes many people to avoid talking about it.  The EMF is equal to Open-Circuit Volts.  When the circuit is open, not current can flow, and you can measure EMF pretty directly.  (There is a caveat on that statement, but there's no point in bringing it up, now).


Once a current starts to flow in the circuit, you start to see voltage drops.  Current multiplied by the impedance of the complete system equals the voltage drop.  If you knew the current, the impedance (resistance) of all components, and the net voltage, you can estimate the EMF.  Your measured voltage is equal to EMF minus all the voltage drops.


In the battery-charging situation, the battery takes control of the measured voltage, but it doesn't regulate the current.  So your measured voltage stays constant, but the EMF can change as the windmill turns faster/slower.  Equilibrium arrives with the current going up and down in proportion.  If you were to check the mathematics, a slow windmill, that has not achieved "cut-in" would have a negative current.  This isn't a false conclusion: the rectifiers that make the AC into DC are preventing reverse current.


In the resistive load, nothing regulates the voltage or the current.  All you have are the sum of the resistances in load and generator, and the EMF "pushing" the electrons.


I hope this helps.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 01:44:58 PM by (unknown) »
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Flux

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Re: turbine output when connected to battery bank
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2008, 03:30:39 PM »
 This is simple enough  and Steven has more or less explained it.


You are right that the open circuit voltage ( more strictly the emf) is directly proportional to rotational speed. You then need to consider impedance of the circuit and you can assume that the battery has a negligible internal resistance and it acts as a voltage clamp ( it does vary with state of charge and surface charge etc. but we assume it clamps at constant voltage.


If you consider a power station alternator feeding a resistor, the internal impedance of the alternator is very small and the voltage applied to the resistor is very close to the emf. If we were to run this big efficient alternator at variable speed the voltage across the resistor would change almost in direct proportion to the speed and the power in the resistor would track volts squared or near enough speed squared.


Now your small alternator is not going to be as efficient and you need to consider its internal impedance. The emf still tracks speed, but the terminal voltage will drop and it is basically a potentiometer with the terminal voltage determined by the ratio of internal impedance to load impedance. If the load is equal to the internal impedance the voltage will be half the emf and at this point half the power will be in the load and half dissipated in the machine windings.


I should add that impedance is too complex for us to worry about here and it will be near enough to regard the alternator internal impedance as a resistance and regard the load as a resistance. This covers the case of the air gap alternators we are discussing here ( don't extend this to iron cored machines or complex loads).


Now the battery is a special case, we can forget its internal resistance so we now need to understand the effect of the alternators internal impedance ( we shall regard it as resistance).


If you connect the highly efficient power station alternator to a battery and bring the speed up, we get current flow as soon as the emf exceeds the battery voltage and in this case with negligible alternator resistance the current would rise extremely rapidly with any further increase in speed, any attempt to force the speed to rise would result in enormous currents and if you managed to raise the speed something would go bang.


For normal turbine alternators there is a lot of internal resistance  and this means that you can raise the speed to some extent. The current flowing will be determined by the difference between emf and battery volts divided by the internal resistance.


Power into the battery will be battery volts x current and will be directly proportional to current. The higher you make the alternator efficiency the more difficult it is to increase speed and this is where you stall the blades.


If you make the alternator less efficient the speed rises more and the blades become more efficient as you keep out of stall. It is all a big compromise. If you let the speed rise to double the cut in speed, the emf will double and the voltage will stay constant so you have half the power going to the battery and the other half cooking the stator.


This is where all the stator cooking problem comes from. For heating with resistive load there is no reason to start with an alternator with low efficiency, although for cheapness you may not get the efficiency as high as ideally desired.


Unless you do something clever you can never get a decent overall efficiency with battery charging if you want to work over a significant speed range. You can avoid fried stators easily enough by making the alternator efficiency high and adding external resistance to help the load match, but it doesn't do anything for the overall conversion efficiency.


This is one reason I encouraged you to stop measuring the rectifier input volts, it only tells you you are cut in, it will never rise. Power is battery voltage x dc current and it is the current that needs measuring.


Sorry I have made a pigs ear of explaining this lot, I should have simplified it a lot by just dealing with resistance and not delved into impedance which is far too complicated to explain here, but it is bed time and I can't be bothered  to re-write it. I hope you follow some of it,


Flux

« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 03:30:39 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: turbine output when connected to battery bank
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2008, 09:57:45 PM »
Generated voltage is internal to the alternator.  It is proportional to RPM.


The voltage you see at the output terminals of the alternator is the generated voltage minus the resistive voltage drop - which is current times series resistance.


The current produces a magnetic field in the coils that causes a drag between the rotor and the stator.  This drag is directly proportional to the current.


If the alternator is hooked to a resistive load the current (and its resulting drag) will go up in proportion to the generated voltage (and the RPM).  The voltage at the output terminals is a fixed fraction of the generated voltage.  Everything rises in step.  Power delivered is current times voltage (and power pulled from the wind is drag time RPM).  These go up with the square of the RPM.


However if the alternator is hooked to a battery-charging load something very different happens.


First, up to the "cutin" RPM the generated voltage is below the battery voltage (plus the diode drops).  No current flows, there's no drag on the turbine shaft (except for things like bearing friction), and the voltage at the alternator terminals is the open circuit voltage.  The mill starts easily and spins up with the wind speed.


But once you reach cutin the current starts flowing.  The battery is a pretty good approximation of a fixed voltage.  So the voltage driving the current is the EXCESS of the generated voltage over the battery voltage (plus the diode drops, which are also approximately a constant), and the resistance this is driving current through is not the load resistance, but just the resistance of the coils and transmission lines.  So current climbs very steeply with the EXCESS of the RPM above the cutin RPM.  And so does drag.


Power is still current times voltage.  But the power delivered to the battery is the current times the BATTERY voltage, while the power dissipated in the wiring is the current times the DIFFERENCE voltage (generated - (battery plus diodes)).  You see the battery+diode voltage at the rectifier input, that plus the transmission line's portion of the voltage drop at the alternator terminals.  But most of your resistive drop is proabably inside the coils (unless you used really wimpy transmission wiring).


Just as the current climbs steeply with above-cutin RPM, so does the drag.  And that means so does the "slip" of the turbine versus the wind.  If the alternator, transmission wiring, battery internal resistance, etc. were all superconductors, the RPM would track the wind speed up to the cutin RPM, then never exceed that RPM no matter how hard the wind blows.  Because there's nontrivial resistance the RPM continues to rise, but more slowly, once the RPM is above cutin.  You get a straight line with a kink in it:  Rising steeply with windspeed up to cutin, rising more slowly afterward.


Now the amount of power available from the wind goes up with the CUBE of the wind speed.  (Energy in a particular mass of air goes up with the square of the speed, but the amount of mass goes up with the speed as well.  m * v^2 * v = m v^3)  To extract that power optimally you'd want to keep the angle-of-attack of the blades constant.  So the RPM (and generated voltage) would go up with the wind speed and the drag (and current drawn) with its square.  Resistive loads have the current going with the first power of RPM leading to collected power going with the square - a not-too-bad approximation for a while, until the cube function gets away from it at higher RPMs - by which time you probably want to furl anyhow.  For battery-charging loads the kink of the line goes the right way, but it's a single segment linear approximation.


In both cases the failure to track the available power means the angle-of-attack of the blade versus the apparent wind - and thus the efficiency of the blades - changes with RPM.  In the case of the resistive load the current, and the drag, rises too slowly.  But that lets the RPM climb more rapidly than the wind speed, giving a bit of compensation.  (It also puts a stronger load on the turbine relative to the available torque at startup than during normal operation and a weaker one at high wind speeds, leading to both starting difficulties and runaways if furling is absent.)


In the battery-charging case startup is easy because there's no load up to cutin.  But then the load starts rising steeply.  You want to "match" the load to the blades so the slope is about tangent to the ideal cube function in the common operating region.  Get it too high and you'll stall the blades at low wind speeds.  The airflow detaches, you lose torque, and you never get up to proper RPM at the typical operating range wind speeds.  Too low and you don't get the current you could have gotten.  Within the "ok" range you can balance it to get that stall when the wind speed gets excessive (though this means you're not getting all the power you could have below stall).  But that's a critical tuning to hit.  Easier to tune it to pull the best power during operation at the cost of being subject to runaway at high winds, then prevent runaway with a separate furling mechanism.


Now "maximum power point tracking", as stated above, would have the voltage go up with the wind speed, the current with its square.  But coil heating goes up with the square of the current, so it would go up with the FOURTH POWER of the wind speed (mitigated somewhat by the increased cooling with the first power of the wind speed and the first power of the temperature difference).  This makes it critical to limit the current when you're approaching the burnout threshold of the alternator.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 09:57:45 PM by (unknown) »

Aule Mar

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Re: turbine output when connected to battery bank
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2008, 09:13:50 AM »
Don't know if this will help or just confuse folks but, there's one more thing happening inside the turbine that you have to think about.


The voltage created inside the coils of the alternator, once it starts to flow, (i.e. creating current, and moving through a load) generates a magnetic field of it's own that is directly opposite the field generated by the permanent magnets, and is proportional to the current flowing.  


Once that magnetic field becomes as strong as the permanent magnets on the rotor, the alternator can no longer increase in power.  

« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 09:13:50 AM by (unknown) »

finnsawyer

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Re: turbine output when connected to battery bank
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2008, 09:44:57 AM »
I don't know where you got your numbers from, but they do not apply to a voltage source having constant resistance and an open circuit voltage that is a linear function of RPM.  In the case of a linear source you would simply have as a model for calculation the open circuit voltage in series with the source's resistance and the load: A simple voltage divider.  For that situation doubling the RPM would double the load voltage and current.


If you find a value of load resistance for which its voltage exactly matches the battery voltage, you can easily find the current flowing through the resistor, which would be the same as the current into the battery, when that is connected in place of the resistor.  From that, you can calculate the power into the battery.  If you know the open circuit voltage you can find the alternator resistance, as well.  You only need to do it for one value of RPM.


In the case of a non linear alternator, such as indicated by your numbers it is more complicated.  Firstly, you need to find the open circuit voltage versus RPM.  That's the easy part.  Then you would likely make a series of plots of voltage (and current) for the alternator as a function of RPM.  The reason for this is that the RPM is likely to vary as the load resistance is changed.  You can then interpolate between the curves to find the value of load resistance that gives a voltage to match the battery's.  Or you could simply connect the battery and measure its voltage and current as a function of RPM.  Well, of course, battery voltage voltage varies considerably, so maybe doing those plots might make sense after all.  


 

« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 09:44:57 AM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: turbine output when connected to battery bank
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2008, 02:28:14 PM »
If I am off base here, then someone more knowledgeable set me straight


OK.


IMHO, You cannot directly connect the battery bank to the generator that can produce 100+ DC volts.  The diff between the generator voltage and battery bank would be the system loss or 50% in the coils of the generator.


Sure you can connect them directly.  You're neglecting the slowing of the turbine by the load torque, which is proportional to current.


In a direct connection, whatever current is going thru the battery is going thru the coils.


That's correct.


So an electronic means is required that translates the variable generator voltage to a more fixed voltage range that allows the battery to effectively charge ...but the generator is still running at >100v ..has to!  volts is proportional to rpm ...period


You've got half the picture:  The current is proportional to the excess of the generated voltage over the battery+rectifier voltage divided by the coil and transmission resistance.


But the current puts a braking torque on the shaft, resisting its rotation.  (That's how power is pulled from the shaft.)  And this makes the blades "fly" more slowly, changing their angle-of-attack due to the change of the "apparent wind" (the vector sum of the true wind with their motion.)  The blades spin lower (lowering the generated voltage) and push harder (raising the torque which provides energy to push the current).  The whole thing reaches an equilibrium where the generated voltage is far below the 100 volts you'd see in an unloaded runaway genny - but enough above the battery voltage to push a significant current into it.


Of course as the wind picks up the power available to be delivered to the blades goes up with the cube of its speed.  This makes the blades spin faster despite the resistance from the current - raising the generated voltage, which raises the excess over the battery voltage, which raises the current, which moves the equilibrium speed higher.  Heating in the stator goes up with the square of the current, so eventually you reach a wind speed where too much power is being dissipated in the genny and it burns out.  So you need to furl below this point.


(In some cases - if your generator is "too good" for your turbine - you may actually want to have some extra resistance in the circuit.  This keeps the load on the turbine from stalling the blades, which lets them spin up more, which lets them stay out of aerodynamic stall, have more lift, and thus more torque from the wind.  The higher power gained more than pays for the extra power burned in the extra resistance.  All that matters for your charging rate is the current delivered to the batteries.  (But you could have done even better by changing the winding or the magnet strength in the generator))

« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 02:28:14 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: turbine output when connected to battery bank
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2008, 02:31:21 PM »
Probably could have pointed out the misunderstanding better by saying, right at the start:


You're assuming that the RPM in the turbine is fixed and unaffected by load.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 02:31:21 PM by (unknown) »

scorman

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Re: turbine output when connected to battery bank
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2008, 03:07:29 PM »
sorry, but you misread my original post ...I never said running at 100v "unloaded" ...quite to the contrary as I gave fixed resistor examples under load and I never presumed that rpm was fixed nor unaffected by load.

But I am not in disagreement with anything technical you have said here either.


All posts to the original question seem to be on the same page.


The only point that was NOT addressed, was what happens in Dan's setup, when the battery is fully charged and he starts "powering the grid" at 220v?

This obviously requires a step up of some sort within the grid tie inverter.

(BTW, his unit cannot run w/o 48v battery bank connected)

At first, the power is used by whatever juice he is using in the house, then any excess simultaneously turns the clock backwards.  SO, what load is being placed on the turbine generator and can we presume that a MPPT circuit is being used?


Stew Corman from sunny Endicott

« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 03:07:29 PM by (unknown) »

ghurd

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Re: turbine output when connected to battery bank
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2008, 05:17:03 PM »
The batteries are still the load.

The 220VAC comes from the batteries.

MPPT is not needed any more than it is with a grid tied solar set up. (Real good idea for 48V grid tied solar, but not needed)


Think about it like the grid is the dump load.


Interesting either way.

G-

« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 05:17:03 PM by (unknown) »
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dlenox

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Re: turbine output when connected to battery bank
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2008, 08:28:15 PM »
Stew,


Some posts here misread my initial post - in stating output from a fictitious wind turbine generator.  My initial curiosity was what actually happens with a wind turbine when it is connected to a battery bank.


You are correct I currently have a Xantrex XW-6048 inverter, which is connected to a 48v battery bank.  I have 8 - 12v AGM 110amp/hr batteries connected in 4-series strings, 2 parallel.  The inverter requires that a battery bank be available for proper operation.


My existing equipment includes an inverter that Xantrex refers to as a hybrid inverter/charger, some of the inverter specs are:

 6wk true sine wave continous output

 120/240 split phase

 27amp continous output across 240v split phase

 DC input voltage 44-64v

 UL 1741

 multistage battery charging


I can vary the 'sell' voltage up to 58v, and with my current setup (mismatched tsr/generator) I find that I have the sell volts at about 56.8v.  I have no quantifyable output, only observed so far. When the inverter goes into 'sell' mode I notice the sytem voltage drops to about 53v as the inverter is outputing power, if wind is sufficient I see the voltage rising fairly quickly, otherwise slower.


I have played with connecting only one of the serial battery strings (4 batteries) vs both the serial strings (8 batteries) and I have noticed that when only 4 batteries are connected that the system voltage appears to be maintained easier by the turbine, keeping the inverter into the 'sell' mode longer. However that being said I have kept all 8 batteries connected as it is a much better 'sponge' in case the wind was to quickly kick up to 20+mph, the full battery bank appears to handle the large load better than if I only had 4 batteries connected. A bit unsure here so keeping safety a major contributing factor and letting me sleep a bit better.


Stew what you said is basically correct that once my battery bank is fully charged, that the inverter allows the turbine voltage to raise up to the point that I have my 'sell' voltage set to, once obtained the power is diverted into my main power panel.  If I am not currently utilizing all the power put back by the inverter the remainder of it goes back into the utility grid.


In 12mph winds the inverter cycles the output, building up voltage, selling power, etc. In higher winds I have seen the inverter go into constant 'sell' mode, it all depends on if my turbine can raise/maintain the system voltage, in quick enough time before the 'sell' mode drops out. If the inverter stops 'sell' mode it waits until the sytem voltage has increased past my set 'sell' voltage. So unless there is a fair amount of wind it is a bit of a see-saw.


I know that most people on OtherPower are not grid-tied, in my case I like to think of the utility grid as my 'secondary battery bank' where if I am consuming more power than I can produce then I use the utility.


What most people don't know is that with net-metering, I do not receive any payment from the utility company if at the end of the month I have a positive balance. This balance is like a 'rotating debit card' where if I do not use the balance within a 12 month period I loose it.


My overall goal is to (hopefully) put extra power in the grid so that when I can not produce enough power, or my generator is down, that I can feed on my 'excess balance'. I do not want to get into economic discussions debating if it is cost-effective or not, this is a pet 'feel-good' project that has probably a 10yr payback period (unless electrical power goes up!).


Currently until I have all my equipment installed to obtain better measurements, I intend to keep all 8 batteries connected for insurance.


Dan Lenox

« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 08:28:15 PM by (unknown) »