Inverter Ground making ADSL connection drop

[acapulco]

ok,

I have just had a frustrating couple of hours figureing out why my ADSL connection wasn't working.

I'm still not entirely sure why

I only got an ADSL connection a couple of weeks ago and have just been running my small 350watt inverter and everything was fine.

Yesterday I discovered 1 battery to be a third to half a volt lower than others(see storage section post) so I temporarily changed over to a backup battery bank which has my big(ger) inverter on it(1500cont.). This inverter has a ground connection on the back and manual instructs to connect wire to a grounding like pipe etc going into the ground. Next to where I have my batteries and inverters etc setup under the house there is a metal pipe sticking out of the ground just outside which had holes drilled in the top and a short piece of wire hanging fromit. I assume(d) that this was the ground connection made by previous owner so I hooked up that to the ground connection on the inverter.

After changing over to that inverter/backup bank I noticed last night the ADSL connection was no good(no internet and DSL light on modem flashing red)

This morning, after checking with ISP to see if fault was thier end(another saga alltogether involving indian guy who can't speak english properly...) I then proceeded to attempt to isolate the cause.

After much drama and cursing I rounded the problem down to 2 things:

1 AUSTAR satelite TV was interfereing, as when I powered off the TV and AUSTAR box the internet connection came good.(I repeated this several times to confirm)

After giving further thought I realised this had never been a problem before so it must be something else as well.

2 The big inverter. Iswitched back over to the other small inverter and battery bank and then every thing was fine(internet and AUSTAR could both work at same time)

With everything working properly running through small inverter I then powered on the big inverter(with nothing plugged into output) and sure enough, the internet connection dropped and DSL light on modem went red.

Last of all I removed the ground wire from the big inverter and then everything went good again.

I now believe the problem is a combination of the AUSTAR satelite TV and the grounding of the big inverter.

The phoneline is underground and comes to the house on the opposite side of where the inverter/batteries etc and ground pipe are.

Question:

  Does the inverter REALLY NEED a ground wire?

  If so how should I do this properly?

  Has anyone else had similar issues and how to resolve?

Obviously, for now I'm running the small inverter as it doesn't have this problem and I don't want to run the big inverter without the ground wire in case it cooks something.

<sigh>

Any comments suggestions appreciated,

Ian.

[electronbaby]

Yes, it is safe to have grounds on your equipment. Your problem might possibly be stemming from a bad ground. It would be wise to start examining the quality of the ground rod you initially chose for earth grounding.

The next thing I would check is if you are running a negative grounded system, that your negative battery terminal is bonded to earth. If the inverter manufacturer tells you to bond the inverter as well, then this must be followed.

It seems to me that you might have some sort of harmonic riding the hot leg into your modem and this might be whats giving you errors. Its hard to tell with out actually seeing your layout.

Break out the ferrite chokes.

[electronbaby]

these things are typical in mod sine inverters where the power quality is severely less than optimal. Not sure what you are using.

[DamonHD]

Have you got some kind of earth loop current that's getting into the signal path?

Eg see if there's any measureable current flowing in your inverter grounding wire (there shouldn't be IMHO) esp with and without the AUSTAR and DSL plugged in.

Rgds

Damon

[wooferhound]

You never mention your battery bank voltage ?

My system is 12 volts and I run my modem directly off of the battery.

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

sounds like electrical noise from the inverter switching is getting onto the phone line and drowning out enough of the DSL signal to keep the modem from communicating with the DSLAM.

Things to look for are:

 - ground loops:  Is there another ground rod (or a grounding wire built into the foundation) hooked into the system somewhere?  All the building grounding should be a "tree" with no loops in it.  The inverter ground post should tie to the same grounding system, preferably close to where any other wiring from the RE system bonds (to minimize the length of the current path for harmonics from capacitive coupling to the case and then back to the other electronics in the inverter through the ground system - forming an inductive loop that can magnetically couple to other things).  Hooking it to a separate ground rod puts this current into the ground around your house, causing different voltages to show up on all the ground rods if you have THREE or more separate grounds.  Your gas piping, water piping, and electrical systems should all be tied - already - to a single grounding system.  (There should also be a ground at the surge protector where the outside phone line attaches to the inside wiring, and this should be connected to the rest of the building grounding by the same rules:  tree, not loop.)

 - Ground fault in the phone drop wiring.  (Does the phone sound noisy?)  If you have such a fault, it will be "unbalanced", i.e. voltage on it will couple into the phone line signal path (which is a "balanced" differential signal - one wire goes + as the other goes - - to cancel out inductive and capacitive coupling to the wire).  If you have a ground fault, injecting harmonic signals into the ground by tying your inverter case to a DIFFERENT ground than the rest of the RE system will inject them into the phone line.  They might be too high frequency to hear - but that's right in the range where the DSL signal is.

I'd bet it's the combination of ground currents and a phone line ground fault.

If so you should get them BOTH fixed.  You'll have to fix the grounding system.  The tellco will have to fix the ground fault if it's outside the house - and (at least in the US) it's your responsibility inside the house and they'll charge you if it's there.

Where are you located?

Presuming your tellco works the same way as the US types, try this:

1. with your ground disconnected (so the DSL modem works as is):  Take the DSL modem out to the "demarcation point".  Open it and see if it has a modular jack and plug on a little loop of cord inside.  If it does, unplug the modular plug and plug the modem into the jack - thus disconnecting the house wiring and hooking the modem to the outside line directly.  Power it up and see if you get the green light after the normal sync-up sequence.  (You won't need to hook up your computer.)  If it works, go to step 2.  If it doesn't, you may have a DSL modem that uses the "line 2" connections on the modular jack rather than line 1.  Get an adapter and try again.  Once you get your sync-up go to step 2.
   
2. Hook your inverter back to the ground rod in the way that made the DSL modem fail.  If it flakes out while connected directly to the line there's a ground fault on the tellco's side (or in the modem).  (You can eliminate the modem by powering it by batteries directly or a portable battery/small inverter combo and trying again.  Flakeout with isolated power is DEFINITELY the phone line.)  Call repair service.  (In the US they can usually test the line using automatic equipment and will dispatch a crew to fix it for free.)  If it doesn't flake out your phone line ground fault is on the wiring INSIDE the house- or something plugged into it - and you should hunt it down yourself.  (Try the same test with the modem plugged into its normal location and all the other telephone instruments - fax machine, etc - unplugged to determine whether it's wiring or a device.)
   
   

Where are you located?

[dnix71]

In the US it was common to ground phone lines to the incoming water line. Water lines were iron. Mine is still grounded that way.

If lightning hits the pole that carries electric, cable and phone, even if the ground wire on the pole fails, there is still a path to ground OUTSIDE the building.

ADSL (residential dsl) is the same two Plain Old Telephone Sevice (POTS) red and green wires, but with the power jacked up to allow higher transmission speeds. Electronic noise kills adsl pretty quick. There was a jerk in my neighborhood who used to fire up a pirate radio station on the weekends and take phone requests. I lost dsl every Saturday for a long time, before complaining loudly to a couple of Bell techs about it.

His music was much better than the "Clear Channel Communications" garbage. BUT, I pay extra for dsl, so I expect to use it.

Anything that connects to the phone lines can inject enough noise to break your connection (answering machine, satellite dish with dial up for pay channels, fax machines, etc.)

Your inverter is probably mod sine wave. Which is really a nasty square wave with voltage peaks that do not match the mains. A high power mod sine inverter is radiating 60Hz square wave noise, so it needs to be grounded away from tv's, radios and your phone. The ringer on a phone uses 30Hz at about 90vac, so 60 cycle hum will mess up your connection.

Find a patch of ground somewhere (preferrably that stays wet most of the time) and pound a galvanized rod (not rebar) 3 feet deep at least. Get some supply wire rated for direct burial and connect your inverter to the buried rod.

[scottsAI]

Yes, direct connection as wooferhound suggests.

Or

Step/down DC / DC switching supply.

Nice efficiency boost with less conversions involved.

I power my modem from my PC power supply along with Router and Ethernet switches.

PC is on all the time running SETI when I'm not doing anything else with it.

Have fun,

Scott.

[tomtmook]

Definitely check to see if it's an inside or outside wiring problem using Ungrounded Lightning Rod's instructions.  

Another suggestion is to check your wiring for two things.  

First, check to be sure that any hot wire has a return wire next to it.  I mean physically next to it.  No space between.  When the wires spread they form an open area.  This open area is akin to an antenna.  Now with clean 50 or 60 Hz, it's not a large enough antenna to really cause problems.  But with the inverter's modified sine, the harmonic frequencies are high enough to radiate from such an antenna and interfere with other equipment.  The only place you can let them spread is in your grounded junction box or breaker panel.  Also check the phone lines for similar open areas.  They can act as receiving antennas.  

You should also check for loose screws or broken or loose wires.  These can cause arcing.  Arcs will also cause interference, but more importantly they're a danger due to their potential to cause fire.  

Good luck with it.

[acapulco]

ok,

system is 24volt

yes inverter is modified sine wave.

yes phone line is decidedly dodgy, I am at the outer limit to even get adsl.

5.5km to end of my road let alone the actual exchange. Phonline is completely underground and actually goes underground through a creek and they are constantly digging it up and messing with it. Phone line can get a bit noisy at times especially after rain.

The phone line as far as i can see is not connected to anything in the house, it comes straight from a pit box outside the house to the plug, this can be visibly followed as it is not in ceiling or walls, just stapled along the inside.

House has no distribution box or fuse box, just a home done string in ceiling that runs a half dozen lights and another string for some powerpoints, these join up and go through a fuse to terminate in a plug to plug directly into either inverter or generater. As the powerpoints are not where the computer or TV are setup, these are run directly from either inverter or generater(extension cords and power boards everywhere, basicly a mess)

The phoneline is the only outside service we have, water comes gravity feed from a permanant spring a couple of hundred metres up the hill in poly pipe. There are copper pipes for the hot water and gas but these are not underground.

I've got the phone company coming out today sometime(supposedly) so i'll see what happens then.

In the meantime i'll get out to the shed and try rustling up a galv rod or something and try to ground this thing better.

  What about just hooking up to a galvanized steel post that holds the house up?

  beams are wood,  but i doubt it goes in 3 feet.

Thanks all for advice,

Ian

[TomW]

Ian;

If you are going to drive in a ground rod, at least use a proper copper clad ground rod. No idea why the other poster said galvanized? Copper clad is the right thing to use.

Sorting good advice from bad is tough. Too much misinformation goes unchallenged here trying to be "PC" and nice, I guess.

Its your baby so take the advice you like.

Tom

[acapulco]

Would a length of copper gas pipe do?

I have a bunch lying around is all, i'd rather not have to buy something as it will likely cost if it has anything to even do with copper ;p

Also this dropping of the adsl happens even when I am running everything off the genset if i power on the grounded inverter at the same time as the satelite TV is on.

(genset is grounded in a similar fashion but is a good 50metres away from house)

As in just turning on this inverter, even with nothing plugged into it.

If I turn it on while the satelite TV box is powered OFF, the ADSL is OK

If I remove the ground wire from the inverter all is GOOD.

Definately the grounding seems to be the issue.

Phone tech is supposedly coming today sometime to investigate, but being friday(almost afternoon) I'm not holding my breath....

Ian.

[dnix71]

I don't know where I could get copper clad rod here, but there is a type of galvanized rod used locally that doesn't rust and is long and hard enough to hammer into rocky soil. It looks almost stainless, but I don't think it is. I've used pieces of it to weld on as handles for dock plates, and it didn't rust afterward.

[dnix71]

They look like this. If your really want copper ground, then hammer in rebar a little at a time and pull it out. When you get the depth you want, then hammer copper rod in the hole you made and water it in for good measure.

[acapulco]

ok,

  phone guy rang instead of coming out, to be expected on a friday arv!

  He sounded bewildered when I attempted to explain. But then he said something like I need a "twisted cable pair" running from phone outlet to modem.

 However I drove a galv star picket in a few feet and grounded the inverter to that and it seems to at least improved the situation.

Now the ADSL only drops when I power up AUSTAR sat TV but then it comes good after a couple of minutes.

I can live with that....

especially seemin' it's friday arv and nearly drinkin' time ;p

cheers,

Ian..

[DigitalMind]

Haha .. I'm a phone technician, (finally I get to help answer a question here instead of asking).

Ungrounded lightning rod made some excellent points.  

In a strange way, the phone tech's idea wasn't bad either.  He's suggesting to run network cable (cat. 5e) for your phone line connections because he's assuming it's caused by interference from other nearby cabling.  

ADSL is VERY picky.  If the wire runs close to other electrical wires that have an unusual "field" coming from them, it will disrupt the signal.  Network cabling picks up less interference than telephone cabling.

So basically re-wire the house with network cable and disconnect the old cabling that can be picking up interference.  Try and keep all your new wiring as far away from electrical wires, transformers, and anything else that can generate an electrical field.  Replace the red and Green with the white/blue blue pair ...  

Is your satellite hooked up to the phone line in ANY way ?? (Make sure, sometimes it is and people don't know it)

[acapulco]

thanks,

sat tv definately not hooked up to phone line.

only thing on phone line is adsl splitter to modem and home phone.

 the line in from sat dish runs along same bearer as my main power string(lights/powerpoints) but the pnone line comes in from other side of house and doesn't go near either power or sat dish lines.

cat 5 cable, now why couldn't the phone guy just say that....

I haven't tried the cat 5 cable yet (don't have any on hand) but will get to that next.

The situation now is that if I run my small(350watt) inverter then the adsl only drops for a minute or so when sat tv box is powered on and going through the search for channels. it then seems to come good.

With my larger inverter that had it's own ground connection, I emailed the place who makes them and they said I didn't need to connect a ground wire(which seems odd seeming it has a specific connector for ground on the back and the instructions that came with the inverter say to do it, anyways i have it in writing from manufacturer that its ok not to...). Before, with the ground hooked up adsl would not work at all if sat tv was on, even just with this inverter turned on but everything powered through genset or other inverter. Now, without ground it drops the adsl when sat tv is powered on then comes good after minute or two like small inverter except with the big inverter I must have the modem powered on and connected to net before sat tv is powered on. If sat tv is on first modem never gets green light for internet and dsl light alternates flashing red or green.

I'll try the cat 5 cable and report finding.

thanks for ideas/advice,

Ian...

!