Author Topic: Kill-A-Watts and X-10 with inverters  (Read 1429 times)

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madlabs

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Kill-A-Watts and X-10 with inverters
« on: July 26, 2009, 03:22:59 PM »
Hi All,


Just wondering how accurate kill-a-watts are when used with a MSW inverter. It seems pretty good, but just wondering.


The second question is does X-10 work on a MSW inverter? I'm guessing no, but thought I'd ask.


Thanks!


Jonathan

« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 03:22:59 PM by (unknown) »

kurt

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Re: Kill-A-Watts and X-10 with inverters
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2009, 02:34:35 PM »
i know for a fact that kill-a-watt meters will pop a resister on there circuit board and stop functioning if you plug one in to a modified sign wave inverter. i have no idea about x-10 stuff.  
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 02:34:35 PM by (unknown) »

Treehouse

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Re: Kill-A-Watts and X-10 with inverters
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2009, 04:24:21 PM »
This is a link to the meter I have been using for the last 2 years, and it seems to be close, but I think it's a little slow and does an average.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/3/HouseHome/2/Electrical/ElectricalTesters/PRD~0528851P/Energy
%2BMeter.jsp


This the the inverter I have also been using, again for the last 2 years with no problems.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4/Auto/SolarPortablePower/Inverters/PRD~0111871P/Xantrex%2BXpo
wer%2BInverters.jsp

« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 04:24:21 PM by (unknown) »

Nil

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Re: Kill-A-Watts and X-10 with inverters
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2009, 04:36:32 PM »
Kurt's reply kinda scares me, but I've already plugged my Kill-a-watt into a Magnum 1524 (modified sign wave) and it is functioning. When the inverter goes into sleep mode the voltage reads low like it should. I've also used it on some Harbor Freight inverts without problem. Maybe them cooking was a batch problem?


I cannot vouch for it's accuracy running on MSW but it is running.


Just my $0.02

« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 04:36:32 PM by (unknown) »

madlabs

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Re: Kill-A-Watts and X-10 with inverters
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2009, 04:43:04 PM »
Hehehe. I've had my kill-a-watt plugged into various MSW inverters for a couple of months now, and it is on 24 hours a day. maybe the inverter you tried was a killer, or maybe I am just dang lucky, I dunno.


It seems pretty close anyway. For example, while drawing 100 amps from a 12V system, 1200 watts, the kill-a-watt is showing a load of 1050 to 1100 watts. That sounds about right with inverter losses. I'm going to really test the time elapsed function, but I'm sure that will be a little off, as who knows how close to 60 hZ the cheapie inverters I am using are.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 04:43:04 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Kill-A-Watts and X-10 with inverters
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 01:00:36 AM »
I don't know anything about the Kill A Wattmeter but I have heard of resistor problems before. Perhaps they have realised the problem and fitted bigger resistors.


I assume that anything that claims to be a wattmeter does in fact measure true watts. In which case I would expect it to measure rms current and volts.


If it is as described then it will measure accurately but it will be up to you to determine whether the answer is what you want.


The trick with msw inverters is that they use the same peak ac volts as true sine wave, this keeps items that rectify to dc happy so your radios, tv's and most electronic things work ok. They then change the on/off ratio of the square wave so that the rms value is the same as a sine. This means about a 50% on cycle. Things that rely on heat then work correctly such as incandescent lamps and heaters.


A true wattmeter will measure the rms current and voltage and the product will be watts so for lights and heaters the thing will be accurate. For any other form of load the thing will still measure the watts accurately but some appliances will not take the same wattage as on a pure sine. Motors may have high losses and take more current, things like microwaves often take less watts and have to run longer on msw for the same heating. Other loads can be very variable. Compact fluorescent rectify to dc and work fine, ballast type fluorescents often work badly, hum and don't run at the correct wattage.


In all these cases a true wattmeter will give the correct answer in the watts you use but it may be well off the figure some appliances may take on pure sine.


Flux

« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 01:00:36 AM by (unknown) »

Opera House

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Re: Kill-A-Watts and X-10 with inverters
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 07:57:40 AM »
"msw inverters is that they use the same peak ac volts as true sine wave,"


That is not true.  Most MSW converters operate at about 140V.  The peak of a sine wave would be much higher than that.  The shorter period of the square wave makes the RMS vpower come out the same.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 07:57:40 AM by (unknown) »

madlabs

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Re: Kill-A-Watts and X-10 with inverters
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2009, 10:16:43 AM »
Flux,


So are you saying that if a wattmeter is accurate for mains use it should be accurate for a MSW inverter? And hence that the MSW nature of the inverter shouldn't be an issue?

« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 10:16:43 AM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Kill-A-Watts and X-10 with inverters
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2009, 04:21:59 PM »
I am saying that a wattmeter reads watts irrespective of the waveform. For most applications the effect is similar for true sine and modified square wave. For incandescent lights and heaters the rms current squared/R will be the power and that is what a wattmeter will read.


For motors and some other things the harmonic components will make the performance different on MSW. The power you get out of a motor may not be its nameplate rating as produced on pure sine. Your wattmeter will give the power in but the efficiency may be quite different as the heating component may be different in relation to the portion converted to work.


Some motors may lock on a harmonic crawl and not run at all. The wattmeter will still measure the power in even if it is entirely loss ( won't run) or mainly loss ( running at harmonic speed).


Most things work well enough on msw and if they work well enough the power drawn is very similar to that when running on pure sine so your wattmeter reading gives a you a decent guide.


Flux

« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 04:21:59 PM by (unknown) »

madlabs

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Re: Kill-A-Watts and X-10 with inverters
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2009, 08:57:38 AM »
Thanks for the info!
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 08:57:38 AM by (unknown) »