Author Topic: just starting out a little help please ..  (Read 2959 times)

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dannyboy

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just starting out a little help please ..
« on: May 29, 2010, 12:57:02 AM »
hello every one

im trying to get my head around a off grid system, i have a basic under standing but i just need to full in a few gaps as i have a few options ,,

this is what im trying to set up with my limited amount of knowledge

5000w a day , on a 24v system = 208amps
giving that the batteries cant go under 50% i will need 416amps x 2 days = 832 amps. so im looking at 12 2volt 1160 a/h Solar Deep cycle batteries
and a 2500w or 3000w inverter charger

because i need to build the system over time (cash) i was thinking about using a generator, small solar one or two panels, and windmill of some kind
we will be wet back and solar for hot water and gas for cooking
am i on the right track here ?? i am after you opinions

what size solar and wind do i need and how fast can i charge it all ,, whats the rules Gide line here

but another option has come up, the people next door have told us that we can tap into there hydro system , they are telling us we can use a battery charger to help charge our batteries . but we cant take to much and i cant get my head around it (the math) to take advantage of the generous offer

there hydro system is 240v system 23 kva it already runs to houses and it runs every thing hot water the lot

i cant work out how to get the 240v back into my 24v system would i need a inverter/charger and a separate charger for the 240v feed and because i can only take a small amount of there power how much power 'of theirs' would i use .....
i know thats gonna depend but i dont know what my options are in the first place ?     100w 240v   into 24v =  what ?  (pun intended)  ;D 

hope this all makes sense to yous ,

thanks for any info
daniel
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 01:54:49 AM by dannyboy »

Watt

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2010, 02:37:35 AM »
Danny, are you in the U.S.?  I ask because I'd like to know if you have access 240 single or split phase.

dannyboy

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2010, 02:47:33 AM »
Danny, are you in the U.S.?  I ask because I'd like to know if you have access 240 single or split phase.

sorry i should have put this ,, im in New Zealand

dannyboy

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2010, 07:12:59 AM »
and im unsure if its single or split phase sorry , will find out

SparWeb

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2010, 01:52:35 PM »
Danny,

You may not have noticed the distinctions between energy used per day, and power consumption.  The energy you require is a sum, concerning a period of time.  The power is what is demanded at a particular instant.

If you turn on your stove and clothes dryer at the same time, you could be demanding 5000 Watts of power.  Run them for an hour, and your Energy Consumption is 5000 Watt-hours, usually written more simply as "5 kWhr".  Run them for 1 minute, and you've only consumed about 100 Watt-hours.  Likewise, when you draw an Amp out of a battery for one hour, you have drained it by one "Amp-hour".  Drawing 60 Amps from the battery, but only for a minute, is also one Amp-hour.

This misunderstanding has messed up your calculations a little, so it's a little hard to interpret the rest of your question.

The degree of discharge of a battery bank does affect its life, and if you can avoid a 50% discharge after 2 days then your systen is designed for a decent amount of independence.  Be careful now with the rest of the calculations.  The set of batteries you suggest will (connected for 24V) offer you 1160 Amp-hours.  To allow the 50% SOC after 2 days leaves you with less than 300 Amp-hours per day.  300*Amp*hour*24*V=7200 Watt*hours per day.

Before committing to a costly set of batteries, the calculation you need to do next (I can't do this for you) is to evaluate the energy use of all the stuff in your home.  Also look at your electricity bills for a year and figure out how much you use in winter, spring, summer and fall.  If it turns out that you use 10 kWhrs per day, even in the summer, then your batteries will not supply your desired independence time, even in the summer, even on the sunniest days.

On a parallel track, figuring out how much energy you can expect from a solar panel, wind turbine, or the hydro turbine tells you what it takes to keep and energy supply going to the batteries.  If 23KVA really are available from the neighbours, then it's going to be a critical component to your RE system unless you have a falling out.

Devices of different voltages rarely cooperate together, so your belief that you need separate equipment is correct.  However, there are inverter/chargers on the market that can charge your batteries for you when the AC of the "grid" or "generator" power is available, and at other times draw from the batteries to supply the AC.  I have a Xantrex SW4024 that does this and they were popular enough in their day that some may have made their way from NA to you in NZ.  There's modern equipment that does this too, and there are bound to be versions that suit your local AC voltage and frequency requirements.

Using renewables is an education, for sure. 
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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wpowokal

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2010, 09:31:32 PM »
Daniel you will I suspect not have a split phase like in the US as far as I know you are no difference than us in OZ.

To take advantage of your neighbors offer I suggest a switch-mode power supply like http://cgi.ebay.com.au/27V-DC-13A-110-220V-Switching-Power-Supply-/350357788425?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item5192f39709 the output voltage is adjustable and they are available in different wattage's.

allan
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dannyboy

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2010, 07:00:10 AM »
thanks for for your reply's

i have worked out my daily consumption of watts and it come in at 4857w so i rounded it up to 5000w

i added up every thing in house that's going to be drawing power, worked out how many hours (or half hours ect) it will be running for and x it by the watts

example
lights in the house are 20w each... kitchen and lounge light on one hour each in the morning that's 2hours x 20w = 40w
lounge and kitchen lights on for 8 hours at night  16hours x 20w = 320 watts   
i went through the hole house and done this for every thing , i think i have got that part right



so the bit im not sure about now is my peak consumption so i will list it... at one givin time this will be on peak power usage

fridge                    92w            800kwh per year    cant find a sticker on the back saying watts ect     so i worked it out at 92w  a hour
freezer                   100w                         no sticker either but maybe same as fridge  but made it more,, its bigger
tv                        145w
laptop                    64w
vacume               1100w
washing machine    165w   
3lights                    60w        all up

thats  1762w hours  ...     i got told i would need a big inverter for this size load because of power surging

im a bit lost now  :D :D       does this sound right am i being realistic here       whats the next step now that i worked that out







zap

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2010, 10:06:29 AM »
does this sound right am i being realistic here       whats the next step now that i worked that out
Daniel that's a very good start.
There's an appliance that's usually fairly inexpensive and will help with some of your power usage estimates.
Here's a Google search for watt meter
Some of the items you're trying to estimate can more easily be measured with a watt meter.  Most will keep a running total, that way you can measure the appliance for a day, week, month, etc.  The longer you measure, the more accurate your estimate.

I, and I think many others on this board, use and have been very happy with the P3 Kill A Watt
One of the cheapest places I've seen to get one is at newegg.com Right now it's $19.99 w/free shipping.  This model will measure up to 125v/15 amp so sometimes it won't measure things like a fridge if the starting amps are too high.

wpowokal

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2010, 07:55:12 PM »
Daniel looking at your list you will get away with a 3Kw pure sine wave inverter, check out the Selectronic range, surge capacity 3 time continuous output. The best advice IMHO in living off grid is load scheduling, ie running as many discretionary loads when there is incoming power so the inverter is powered direct from this source, this saves on battery life and battery efficiency losses. Then in your example don't vacuum when the telly and washing machine are I/S. The two big surge items there are the fridge and vacuum, the freezer is easier to start than fridge and the other items don't have much surge. What is your water source?

Your biggest challenge with everyone's help is to get the size of you battery bank and inverter right, solar panel can be added anytime. Your figure of 1160A/h is about right a rule of thumb is 3-10 time inverter capacity, 1160 A/h s close to 10 so good, and 5Kwh/day is 200Ah/d (24v bank) aiming to stay in the top 20% that's  1000A/h of battery storage capacity but remember those figures are rarely achieved under normal use. What is you average hours of sunlight/day here in WA it's 5.5 Hobart more, you are even further south,so more or less?

If you had 2Kw of solar with a back up generator you would get by most times from solar, as to wind turbine it depends on your location. Do you have a site clear of trees and buildings? and what is your average wind are the trees bowing to you most days?

allan
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dannyboy

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2010, 04:39:35 AM »
thank yous for your reply's ,  much appreciated


i have seen these watt meters , i will see if i can find one local , if not i will get one from the link you gave me..  thanks for that , it would be useful

i will look into that inverter have a good read of the web site  ..... so many different brands its good to here when other people are using the or recommended them

for water we will be gravity feed and heated by wet back fire and a solar hot water system , think i need a pump for the solar hot water because the cylinder is under the system and im looking into that now .. find out how much power it uses ect ..

the fridge and wash machine tv that i have now is all old gear and not the most efficient , but that will just give me room for improvement later now down the track


the average day light hours is  6. 19 a day  (bay of plenty nz)
still trying to find out average wind speed but im sure i have enough , i got a real good spot for wind, a high paddock that is clear of trees ect close to the house



the next thing im not to sure about is the price of the soar panels and wind turbine  i have seen 180w solar panel for $1630 and another for $650 both offering the same warranty

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=293011864      $650

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Caravans-motorhomes/Parts-accessories/Solar-panels-accessories/auction-293607284.htm  $1630

thats a big price difference i know im gonna get what i pay for but ............   ???

so if any one can offer a opinion on bands of solar and wind turbines etc im all ears 

i have just found out that there is another family living about 20mins form me that have just put in a system solar and wind ,, so im might go knock on there door and say hello , i dont know them but im sure they would want to shear the experience and thoughts ,  i better put on a good shirt so they let me in to have a look   :D

thanks for you help

tanner0441

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2010, 06:06:07 AM »
Hi

Can I queary the washing machine load 165W is very low even for the motor 9pound of wet clothes will make it work and does it have a heater element in it?

Brian

DamonHD

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2010, 07:33:56 AM »
My (efficient, front-loader) washing machine takes about 100W churning the clothes but over 1kWh on a fast spin and over 2kW when heating water.

A typical cold wash consumes less than one fifth of one kWh and a typical warm/hot wash over 1kWh.

http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-Zanussi-ZWD14581W-freestanding-washer-dryer-REVIEW.html

Rgds

Damon
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wpowokal

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2010, 07:37:37 AM »
Solar panels are difficult as it is usually many years before one knows how good  the deal was, I have a number of older BP 55w panels purchased 2nd hand, in their former life they were in the north west of West Australia a very harsh environment, ambient is frequently 40+deg.c and they look it, a connection failed between two cells on one panel (12v panels) so I use a step up switching module for that one They have served me 8 years and still put out full spec.

I purchased 6 new Shell 145W panels about 6 years ago, they perform as expected.

My new system uses BP panels but is less than 12 months old, there are many Chinese panels on the market and I am sure some are good value, but I have no way of knowing which.

Wind turbines I make my own but Exmork http://www.exmork.com/product.htm have had good recommendations, read on http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/FORUM1/default.ASP.

allan

 
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SparWeb

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Re: just starting out a little help please ..
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2010, 04:29:40 PM »
Quote
...Exmork http://www.exmork.com/product.htm have had good recommendations...

Some good AND some bad experiences.  Buyer beware.

http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/FORUM1/forum_posts.asp?TID=2426&KW=exmork

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca