Author Topic: Battery questions  (Read 4458 times)

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JoeD.

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Battery questions
« on: August 17, 2010, 08:54:17 AM »
   Just a few questions I haven't found being asked.

  I've read a few other posts from members who discuss reviving batteries. I am on a learning curve here.

I have batteries that have low specific gravity and I'm in the process of charging them. I've added distilled water.  If the S.G. is low after charging them, ~ could you pour the existing liquid into a proper receptacle and either add new "battery acid" to that liquid to bring it up to the correct S.G., or prepare all new liquid with distilled water and new battery acid and get it to the correct specific gravity and then pour it back into the cell and connect the charger.

 Short version of the question is- can an old battery be helped/hurt with brand new acid. Our O'Reilly auto parts store actually carries gallons of battery acid in stock. I bought a gallon for about 12 dollars, thus these questions.

  If none of this will work, I can take the acid back and not be out anything.
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zap

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Re: Battery questions
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2010, 09:22:40 AM »
Chances are the operation you're describing will do nothing to improve the performance of your batteries.

There are methods for removing the sulfates (if that is what's wrong with the battery) then flushing the battery and adding new acid but it's usually a losing proposition... By the time you've removed sulfates, the condition of the lead plates are probably so degraded that you'll be money ahead by simply recycling the battery.

JoeD.

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Battery questions
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2010, 09:50:19 PM »
  I am trying to decide (translation= you guys make my mind up for me  ;D ) whether or not to return that containter of sulphuric acid to O'Reillys or not.  Is there a reason or scenario a guy would use straight sulphuric acid in battery maintenance, or is distilled water all a guy would ever need?  I don't want to take it back today and end up going back in a week to buy it back  ;)

 Is the acid only to energize a new, dry charged battery?

  I really don't understand why you wouldn't top off a battery plagued by low electrolyte level with acid instead of distilled water.  I am not talking about rejuvenating an old battery that is on the verge of scrap- just one that is low of electrolyte from overcharging/gassing.

  Is it because adding acid to a low cell would make the specific gravity for that specific cell too high?

  Is acid right out of the jug not at perfect specific gravity? I don't want to break the seal on this jug I bought just to test the s.g., and then not be able to return it.

  Is it that acid is not at the perfect s.g. right out of the jug, but first needs to be in a battery and subject to the chemical reaction caused by an electrical charge before the s.g. gets to the right level?
 
  Help me figure this out. I appreciate your responses....
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 09:56:14 PM by JoeD. »
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JoeD.

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NAPA 8D batteries
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2010, 11:25:46 PM »
  Just got them today. I read that they are about 250 a.h. batteries. They are less than a year old. October of 2009 on the punchouts.

  Have been setting on the ground for about 3 months. Removed from a big machine being scrapped.  Voltage read 12.34 on both of them when I got them to the shop.

  I checked the specific gravity on one cell but I can't remember the exact reading. I do remember that on the tester I was using it was in the middle of the white area, not the green, on the indicator.

   Tomorrow I will connect them to one of the automatic chargers I have (obsolete discards from work) and see how they turn out. One charger brand is "Cragg Railcharger"  http://www.rwy.com/craggfro.html  and the other brand is "National Railway Supply" http://www.nrsga.com/ERB-C.htm .

The former is an older unit, and the latter is a newer model with a printed circuit board control in it, with digital readout of volts, amps, battery temp, and is user programmable from the front panel of the machine.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 11:29:44 PM by JoeD. »
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willib

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Re: Battery questions
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2010, 11:51:13 PM »
Hi JoeD are these batteries , locomotive batteries per chance?

All i know is that they are not THAT old :)

so adding distilled water to a low cell will not hurt anything.

The way i imagine it is SOME battery acid may leak out with the H2 and O2 gasses that emanate from a charging battery , but not much.

Besides 12.34 Volts is pretty good and it should not take that much to bring them up to full charge.

You ask some very good questions but i'm not an expert on battery maintenance.
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bob g

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Re: Battery questions
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2010, 02:21:56 AM »
in my opinion one should only add acid to a battery under the following conditions

1. if the battery is a new dry charged unit

2. if the battery has been tipped over and lost its electrolyte, with a caveat
that the battery was fully charged before it was dumped,

if the battery was tipped over and dumped and you don't know if it was fully charged or not
i would refill it with distilled water and charge the thing until there is no further rise in specific gravity for
3 hours, then

dump the contents and refill with fresh electrolyte.

the problem with adding new acid to a used battery is you have no way of knowing how much acid is trapped in sulfation
without first recharging the battery fully, and then doing an equalization.

you mention a hydrometer that is scaled with white, red, green or whatever
that is about useless for proper battery maintenance, it will only give you a relative indication of condition but no where
near accurate enough to do what needs to be done.

get one that is scaled to three decimal places, so that it can read 1.265 for instance, and
it should include a temperature compensation chart.

charge the batteries fully before you do anything, then measure the specific
gravity of each cell and log the readings on a chart,

in the meantime, contact the manufacture of the battery and find out what the specific gravity for a fully charged battery
is supposed to be, not all manufactures use the same specific gravity, some will use stronger acid in order to get more power
from a battery at the expense of lifespan, and visa versa.

while you are talking to them, find out what their recommendation is for an equalization charge, how many volts and for how long.

keep the temps down to below about 110F, over about 120F and you can do damage to the battery.

the manufacture will tell you how far apart the cells can be in specific gravity before they need an equalization charge, follow their
recommendation and you will get the best results.

think long and hard before you fall into all the hype about adding some chemical or salt to the cells, or invest in a desulfator
there is little solid evidence that either are as effective as using a good charge routine, with an approved equalization, and there
is some evidence that adding some of these chemicals while temporarily improving the situation usually either reduce the lifespan
of the battery, ruin its efficiency, or increase their self discharge, or some/part or all of the above.

contrary to popular belief, battery manufactures want their product to perform as designed, and they want you to get the maximum
life out of them,
the economy is tough, and the competition in the battery market is extreme,  if there were any trick chemicals or processes that
extended the life of their cells you can bet they would have been marketing the stuff for the last century.

stick with what the manufacture recommends will rarely lead you down the wrong path.

bob g
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

JoeD.

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Re: Battery questions
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2010, 08:06:00 AM »
if the battery was tipped over and dumped and you don't know if it was fully charged or not
i would refill it with distilled water and charge the thing until there is no further rise in specific gravity for
3 hours, then dump the contents and refill with fresh electrolyte.
 
 
the problem with adding new acid to a used battery is you have no way of knowing how much acid is trapped in sulfation
without first recharging the battery fully, and then doing an equalization.


 Those two statements tell me that: water isn't changing into electrolyte, right? When you add water and charge a tipped over battery, you are attempting to get the sulfation (acid that has been tranformed) on the plates back into solution in the freshly added water, then, after the battery is charged you check the s.g. and if it was low, then you could add acid to get it back to the proper s.g.

  I think I am beginning to see the light on the acid vs. water thing. I will think on this a while and post again to give my analogy of what I think you are saying. I have it in my head, but don't have the time right now to post it all. Have to get to work.
  Lots of other good info in your post, Bob~

  Willib.~ no, they aren't loco batteries. They came out of some sort of track repair machinery that had outlived it usefullness and was cut up for scrap. Luckily for me, they had put new batteries in it right before its' demise.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 08:41:46 AM by JoeD. »
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bob g

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Re: Battery questions
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2010, 11:55:37 AM »
one could add acid back to the cell, where water was used to fill the cells after a spill, and after a recharge, but

the acid from napa is likely already premixed for direct use in a battery and will likely have a specific gravity of 1.260-1.267

so adding it to a watered down cell likely won't bring the specific gravity up to anywhere near where it needs to be.

hopefully  your batteries have not been dumped or spilled, that way you won't have to deal with it.

if it were me, i would contact the manufacture and follow their charge advise to the letter and see how they come back for you.

they may have to be cycled a few times to get back into shape, and it might take a couple rounds of equalization between times
as well.

good luck

bob g
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

JoeD.

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Battery pix
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2010, 10:48:22 PM »
Here are photos of one set of the Absolyte batteries. I have 3 more sets at the shop. I had a headache all day and didn't feel like fooling with the hydrometer and checking the s.g. and getting an exact reading on them. Still have the headache.....




and a shot of the two 8D batteries I got yesterday.



I got my camera out to take pix of a wind generator I brought home today.  Am going to post them over in the wind section to see what kind of a rise I get out of them guys.

  The absolyte set is outside the garage. Had them on that blue charger for the last day and a half. When I went out to check on them, one had kinda boiled and liquid had got on the cement floor and was eating on it a bit. I had a bit too high liquid level in that cell. I killed that with soda, then put those batteries back outside where they won't hurt anything.

  The charger shows that it was putting in a little less than 1.5 amps and was at about 13.4 v.d.c. when I disconnected them to get them outside.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 10:53:40 PM by JoeD. »
Where I work, the motto is "We're not happy until You're not happy"