Author Topic: Aurora Grid Tie  (Read 18956 times)

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joestue

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Re: Aurora Grid Tie
« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2011, 06:11:35 AM »
unless the resistance of the alternator is negative, then you will always operate above optimal tsr to reach the maximum power point.
write that down a few times if you have to.

from looking at a few more graphs of torque vs rpm, i think its sufficient to model the data as a straight line. approaching zero at some rather high tsr, peak at optimal tsr and falling to zero again below optimal tsr, however below a tsr of say 4 or so, that's not going to be accurate, but hopefully its never operated there... unfortunately the bulk of the experience on this site is with turbines in hard stall.. ..

If you can then assume that peak torque is at tsr 7 and zero torque is at tsr 15, then i think you're good, though blade profile will dictate.

from that data you can then calculate the rest.

if you attempt to work backwards, by attempting to calculate the rpm at a certain current, then of course as it falls off either end of the torque curve then you will find the alternator delivering power to the wind and all your equations go negative. or, if you incorporated the diode bridge into the equation, you'll find the output of the turbine clamped at  -1.4 volts.
attempting to calculate the rpm from the amount of power drawn from the turbine is even less helpful, unless you do it for 1000 different wattages and windspeeds. and then plot the data on a 3 dimensional graph
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Rob Beckers

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Re: Aurora Grid Tie
« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2011, 07:57:40 AM »
Quote
Assumptions...
Your spreadsheet shows current based on the unloaded voltage, however once the current applies a load, the voltage across the output of the alternator will drop.  The Aurora will actively, or with a look-up table, find the optimum load to apply so that the voltage doesn't fall too much, seeking the maximum power point. 

That is correct.
My spreadsheet is a simple first-order approximation that bases current on unloaded voltage and power extracted from the rotor (the inverter needs to load the rotor in such a way that it match the power extracted from the wind, so the rotor doesn't speed up nor slow down). That breaks down for higher phase resistance values. To do it right means taking the whole circuit into account and solving the equations for all parts concurrently. Maybe I'll do that if I have some spare time on my hands. For the most part the simple approach is good enough.

The usual for these spreadsheets is that they get made spur-of-the-moment when they are needed, and there is no time for refinement...

Quote
You cannot calculate the maximum power point without knowing what the slope of the torque versus rpm graph looks like, how much it differs between various blade profiles i have no idea.

Actually it turns out that by far the best predictor of power from a rotor vs. wind speed is simply by using the equations for kinetic energy in the wind and a fixed, reasonable, efficiency. A really good blade profile may do a few percent more, a bad one a few percent less, overall the effect of blade profile seems to be quite limited (especially when compared to the other approximations). This assumes 'normal' blade profiles that are common for wind turbines; they tend to have a wide 'optimal TSR' area. In practice you don't want a blade that has to be run 'just right' to work, since any wear, insects, dirt, or ice will make the output drop like a brick.

The optimal TSR is determined by the angle-of-attack that the blades are fixed at to the hub, and the blades optimal angle for lift-to-drag or Cp (not quite true but close enough). So this is a design parameter, different for different turbines even if they run the same blade profiles.

Quote
The Aurora probably interpolates between the points in the table you give it (Yes Rob's input is necessary here).

Correct. You have 16 points for the table, it interpolates between (probably just first-order interpolation, but I don't know that for sure). I've written a note about MPPT for wind turbines, how inverters do this, and why it works. You can read it here (scroll down a bit). Hopefully that will help explain the concept.

Quote
unless the resistance of the alternator is negative, then you will always operate above optimal tsr to reach the maximum power point.
write that down a few times if you have to.

Correct. But if this starts to make a large difference in voltage you're really pushing that alternator (and generating lots of heat!), probably more than you should. At that point the solution could be to increase the TSR (for the higher power levels), so the alternator puts out a higher voltage, the current goes down, and losses too. Even if that is above optimal TSR; the high end of the TSR vs. efficiency curve is even more flat than the low end, and at that point you got plenty of wind anyway (if obtaining maximum power output is your goal).

Truth is that a 'theoretical' MPPT curve will only get you so far no matter what. Still, it has value, and more than likely will get you in the ballpark (the many commercial turbines that I've made MPPT curves for seem to run just fine on them, despite the approximations). If you want to get to the real MPPT curve for your turbine you need an anemometer at hub height. Start with the best-guess MPPT curve, run it, log wind speed vs. power output (ie. make a power curve for the turbine). Then increase all the output values of the MPPT curve by 15% and repeat. Do the same a few times for higher and lower power values vs. voltage, and you will get a set of power curves that show where best output power vs. wind speed is headed. The anemometer doesn't even have to be calibrated, as long as the wind speed measurements are repeatable.

Menelaos, what are the parameters for your turbine? I'll run 'm in my spreadsheet and tell you what I get.

-RoB-


Menelaos

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Re: Aurora Grid Tie
« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2011, 03:22:48 PM »
Hi Rob,

The spreadsheet is fine for the alternator of the 6 KW turbine and I will use it that way and correct thix as you discribes above...I have good aneometers to do that...real high end stuff, as one of my friends works as a professional wind appraiser for the big turbines...so logegrs, sensors and stuff I have the best availlable....

Anyway, for that alternator the voltage drop is not that much as it is verry efficient.

I now made an alternator for a friends turbine. He built a Lenz rotor of 2.5m in diamter and 3 m in hight. When I designed the alternator I had restrictions for the magnetplates not to be more than 50cm in diameter and he definitively did not want gearing, alsthoug I strongly recommended this. So I wound the alternator which is not to make more than 1 KW...maximum....

12 coils, 16 pairs of magnets with 75x37x15mm

Now the resistance is 14 Ohms which is verry high...and the loaded TSR is about 0.8 (I know it is lower but he wanted me to take that number)
The alternator gives me a rectified voltage of 35 Volts at 10 RPM...

Rob, please give yout programm a try and see what it gives you. I am sure that if it works similar to mine, at some point far below 10 m/s, the voltage drop will be bigger that open voltage and thinx get negative...or at least decrease so that the final voltage will rise and then finally return to falling agian which of course is a problem because the aurora will make funny things then.

I am sure, If I make tests with that alternator with different loads to simulate this, the results of voltage drop will be verry different...I think you will see what I mean...

No question about that...the alternator is far too small and inefficient....but it is to be a "cheap" prototype to play with, not more...

Thanx,

Max

fabricator

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Re: Aurora Grid Tie
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2011, 05:18:09 PM »
Menelaos, that is some very nice looking machine work there, I can't wait to see it all assembled!
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Menelaos

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Re: Aurora Grid Tie
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2011, 07:50:37 PM »
Thanx,

Unfortunately, this project is put on ice for a wile...In the meantime I have made a coupple of other alternators...Togeter with a friend, I am running an equivalent site to this, a german discussion bord...and I spend qiute some time on developing a kit for 2 different turbines...one for a 2-3m turbine and one for a 4-5m turbine...bothe versions for grid and off grid...
And soon I will be away abroad again to earn some money (nautical officer)...but when I return, I will continue with this project...and of course I will report here as well :-)

Max

jarrod9155

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Re: Aurora Grid Tie
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2011, 10:11:05 PM »
I have a couple tunes from Rob on my inverter and would really like to compare your spread sheet to his outputs i have about a year under my belt playing with the aurora and my axial flux design so to I would be curious to compare .  I will say Robs tunes were allways really close . The Royal wind blades that alot of people on this board are interested in or are running are very tuff to tune with the aurora I believe do to the torque they applie at low tsr so having your tune and going from that I really think it could be useful to RWS and any one else using this combo . It's great to see more people running mppt grid tied !

Menelaos

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Re: Aurora Grid Tie
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2011, 07:16:14 AM »
Hi Rob,

Any news on that Data I posted for that inefficient generator I am building?
DId it work out with your tool or did you encounter the same problems I mentioned?

Max

Rob Beckers

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Re: Aurora Grid Tie
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2011, 07:51:27 AM »
Menelaos, what is the typical rotor efficiency for a Lenz rotor? Looks like it is somewhere between a drag and a lift type rotor.

-RoB-

Menelaos

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Re: Aurora Grid Tie
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2011, 07:53:04 AM »
Hi Rob,

Opinions differ, but If it is build properly it is assumed to be around 30%.


Max