Author Topic: VAWT new proto-type  (Read 248695 times)

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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2010, 09:05:32 AM »
Greetings, I completed fabrication of vertically stacked PMA's.  The magnets are mounted on non-magnetic rotors. One is a 6 inch diameter with 3 stators and 4 rotors for a total of 24 coils that are wired in series.  The other is a 8 inch  diameter with 2 stators and 3 rotors that has 18 coils wired as a 3 phase with 6 coils per phase.
Stacking the stators vertically allows for a increase coil count while reducing the  number of required magnets and does increase output at a lower RPM. So far I am very pleased with the results. I am still waiting for camera to be repaired and will post some pic's as soon as it is returned. Cheers
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Bruce S

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2010, 05:13:54 PM »
Greetings, I completed fabrication of vertically stacked PMA's.  The magnets are mounted on non-magnetic rotors. One is a 6 inch diameter with 3 stators and 4 rotors for a total of 24 coils that are wired in series.  The other is a 8 inch  diameter with 2 stators and 3 rotors that has 18 coils wired as a 3 phase with 6 coils per phase.
Stacking the stators vertically allows for a increase coil count while reducing the  number of required magnets and does increase output at a lower RPM. So far I am very pleased with the results. I am still waiting for camera to be repaired and will post some pic's as soon as it is returned. Cheers


Looking forward to the pics  :)
have you done any load or wind tests with it yet OR are you paying the Murphy's wind law at this time  ;D
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2010, 08:31:46 PM »
Greetings, I constructed a simple frame that will attach to the trailer hatch receiver I installed on my car to test the turbine on the road at different MPH. I used a truck in the past to test turbines on the road and the technique does work.  I hope to be testing within the week.
 So far the only test on the PMA's has been a small 12 volt light and spinning the shaft with a wrench that has produced about 0.6 Amps at approximately 12 volts DC for the 3 phase.  Coil alignment on the stators of both PMA's is critical and I have to add some holes and pins on both units to prevent the stators from spinning out of place before the road test. Thanks for inquiring. Best regards     
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2010, 06:43:32 PM »
Greetings, still waiting for camera to be repaired. A friend was able to take some photo’s of the assembled 8 inch diameter 3 phase. The unit  is 25 pounds and has 3 rotors and 2 stacked stators, 6 coils per phase. The photos show method that can be use to mount to a mast using 4 inch PVC pipe. I should be testing within the week. Cheers






« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 06:57:09 PM by GoVertical »
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2010, 08:25:51 PM »







Greetings, working on 6 inch version of Vertically stacked stator PMA. Fuzzy photo's show progression of assembly. I hope to testing Sunday.
Plastic rotors allow for stacking of rotors and stators taking advance of the lines of flux that extend from both ends of the magnets.  The advantage of stacking allow for increased coil configuration with less magnets required; which should provide higher output at lower RPM.
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SparWeb

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2010, 02:22:46 PM »
This is a neat way of packing it all in, I will admit that.  I often find myself wrapped up in the fun of building things, too.  It's only later when I try to use them that the reality sinks in.  Have you given that genny a spin up to 1000 RPM?  Why not try to run it and get some juice flowing?  I'm not looking for proof of anything - your goals are your own.  But at some point all your effort and craftsmanship should to add up to producing electricity.  I'm just surprised that after finishing one you are going on to build another, without testing the first to see if your effort was worthwhile.
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2010, 07:01:34 PM »
Greetings, working on new blades now. I hope to have  test results tomorrow, it will be raining. I hoping the new blade configuration will work well enough for direct drive. Good or bad I should be posting the results tomorrow. Cheers
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2010, 07:47:03 PM »
Greetings. Blade fabrication not completed. I have to rework the spokes a vertical blade supports.  I am really impressed with the durability of the Coroplast corrugated plastic, but it does have limits and I found them. It does flex but if you try to flux it to much it folds and does not form the arc that is needed. Angling the contact surface of the blade supports should solve the problem. I was able to complete test rig for road testing. I have to get larger bridge rectifiers  to handle higher current that may be produced.  Set backs are to be expected when working with new ideas.  I should know more in a few days. Cheers
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2010, 05:55:42 PM »
Greetings, repaired camera has been returned.  Started fabrication of new test blade for VAWT.  Should start testing tomorrow. Then I can start obsessing about blade angles. Cheers



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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2010, 06:50:21 PM »
Greetings, completed first road test. The PMA being tested is the 8 inch 3 phase with 6 coils per phase.
AC output was converted to DC and a small 12voltDC test light was used for a load with a resistance of 4.4ohms.
@ MPH     dcVolts     Amps
      10        4        .14
      20        7          .27
      30       12.2        .36
      40     17.7         .45
      50      19.7       .47

It will take a few days to implement test circuit using 12 volt battery and charge load diverter controller.
At this point it looks like the stators will have to be re-fabricated, reduce the air gap, and increase magnet size. I will have to check to see if stators are still aligned. On the plus side the blades and PMA survived up to 50 MPH and the test rig works which will make future testing easier. Cheers



 
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2010, 09:34:18 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0Cbg8q7quM

Playing with Movie Maker, turn the sound down.



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southpaw

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2010, 09:23:57 AM »
Hi GoVertical
Im Not an expert on aerodynamics but have to think that any test results you get from having the turbine mounted in that location on your car would be virtually meaningless due to the airflow over the hood windshield and roof.
I drive a similarly shaped vehicle and at highway speeds the dust gathers on my rear window.
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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2010, 11:50:07 AM »
Quote from: GoVertical
      10        4        .14
      20        7          .27
      30       12.2        .36
      40     17.7         .45
      50      19.7       .47




Wow, That's a lot of work for ten watts!
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ghurd

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2010, 12:12:38 PM »

It will take a few days to implement test circuit using 12 volt battery and charge load diverter controller.


No it won't.   :)

The output is not very many amps.
After the rectifiers, install a lighter plug, and plug it in.
When the car is running it will be stable at about 14.2V or so.
As long as you keep the mill's output under about 15A, everything will be dandy.

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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2010, 12:14:27 PM »
Greetings, in the past I used a truck for a road test and rode in the back with a hand held anemometer and the reads where the same as the dash board speedometer. No the method is not perfect, but it will give you a ball park set of numbers.  During the test I must of had a intermittent open in the test circuit. Last night I wired the test circuit and PMA on the bench and was spinning by hand and had much better results.  Basically I am very happy the unit stayed in one piece at the higher windspeeds. Yes, there is a lot room for improvement, 99% there. Cheers
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2010, 12:21:08 PM »

It will take a few days to implement test circuit using 12 volt battery and charge load diverter controller.


No it won't.   :)

The output is not very many amps.
After the rectifiers, install a lighter plug, and plug it in.
When the car is running it will be stable at about 14.2V or so.
As long as you keep the mill's output under about 15A, everything will be dandy.

G-

Greetings, has anyone tried this idea? I could add a 15 amp fuse in the circuit.
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ghurd

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2010, 10:21:47 PM »
The car alt is making the exact amount of power to hold the battery at the set running voltage.
If the turbine puts 0.2345A into the battery, then the car alt will make that much less.

The lighter has a fuse already.  Probably 20~30A.  Keep it a ways below that so the fuse doesn't pop, which doesn't look like a problem at this time.

The wire feeding the circuit is probably #14 or #16, so if the turbine amps are high it could introduce a bit of voltage drop, but again it doesn't look like a problem at this time.
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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2010, 10:47:26 PM »
Do you have any idea what to RPM is at the test speeds. Does it level out or keep increasing with speed.
My HAWTs don't produce much power at low rpm.
Very interesting project. The wife is wanting me to build a VAWT with her,a lot of good ideas here.
We will use some type of gearing to increase gene. RPM.
 
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2010, 08:15:24 AM »
Greetings, I am running another road test today. I will use different resistive loads to see if the test results where a open circuit on the first test or low RPM's. I plan on connecting the PMA to a variable speed lathe and reproducing the test voltage results, then measure the RPM's with a tachometer meter for RPM results. For now that is the best I can do. This should tell me if I need to add a belt drive.  I am saving the car lighter experiment for another day. I need my wheels.
       Best of luck workings on your project and I hope to see some pic's.
Areas that need improvement on my next build are drilling perpendicular hole in the spokes so the vertical blades are perpendicular to the hub and I plan on using u bolts for the hub and spoke assembly, that will just make everything easier.  If you have question regarding your project just ask, I will be happy to help if I can.   Best regards 
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2010, 05:15:40 PM »
   Greetings, completed second road test. Three different resistive loads were used. A small auto light rated at 4.4 ohms, a large auto light rated at 1.6 ohms, and a large heating element rated at 23 ohms. Second test confirmed results of first test and shows approximate behavior of PMA using purely resistive loads. Tomorrow I plan on reproducing the results using the variable speed lathe to obtain RPM data.  First impressions shows the current PMA and blade configuration will need a belt drive with at least a 4 to 1 ratio to produce a charge voltage  at 10 mph wind speed.  
   The current PMA can be reconfigured with large magnets to help increase output at lower RPM's. I can also try reducing the size and try different  angles on the blades to see if RPM's can be increased. Not a slam dunk, but the fabrication techniques used will allow for easy and fast changes to be made. Still have a lot of work to do on this project. Cheers

4.4 ohms
               MPH                   volts                Amps
               10                      2.3                  0.2
               20                      6.5                  0.3
               30                      13.6                0.37
               40                      15.2                0.42

1.6 ohms
              10                       0.7                  0.4
              20                       3.0                  1.2
              30                       7.7                  1.8
              40                       12.0                2.3

23 ohms
              10                       3.4                 0.12
              20                       6.0                 0.24
              30                       12.0               0.40
              40                       15.2               0.75

        
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 05:28:17 PM by GoVertical »
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ghurd

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2010, 07:38:38 PM »
The light bulbs are throwing things off.
Can not really use the resistance of a light bulb for anything.

Notice the 4.4 ohm bulb and 23 ohm heating element are both taking about the same amps at about 12V.
At 15.2V each, the 23 ohm heating element is taking almost double what the 4.4 ohm bulb is taking.

And it looks to me like the heating element is no good for this test either.
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2010, 08:24:18 PM »
Greetings, thanks for the input. It will be fun to see what it does with a battery.   I should be able to use this data to generate some values for RPM at different MPH.  Basically it is showing that vertically stacking the stators will work, I just need a better coil design and stronger magnets.  Any ideas on what the internal resistance of a 12 volt battery is?
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ghurd

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2010, 09:36:44 PM »
Any ideas on what the internal resistance of a 12 volt battery is?

So close to 0 ohms, it does not count at all.
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Tritium

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2010, 09:46:20 PM »
Greetings, thanks for the input. It will be fun to see what it does with a battery.   I should be able to use this data to generate some values for RPM at different MPH.  Basically it is showing that vertically stacking the stators will work, I just need a better coil design and stronger magnets.  Any ideas on what the internal resistance of a 12 volt battery is?


Once again;  If those magnets were mounted to a ferrous material to complete a proper magnetic circuit then you would have MUCH more output per rpm.

Thurmond

ghurd

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2010, 10:06:46 PM »
It will be fun to see what it does with a battery.   

I should be able to use this data to generate some values for RPM at different MPH. 

Basically it is showing that vertically stacking the stators will work, I just need a better coil design and stronger magnets.

If you intend to charge a battery, then the only numbers that count are when it is connected to a battery.

I do not see how the listed numbers are useful for any calculations.

Stacked stators will work.  No one said they would not work.  They said the concept was not the most effective utilization of resources.
I can get 25W into a battery from a 3.3" dia x 2.5" long motor with 25.5" dia HAWT blades in less than 30MPH.
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2010, 10:11:06 PM »
Have you constructed a PMA with and with out metal rotors to see if there is really a difference? A few years ago I did and I found no difference.  Yes I could be wrong and I am not looking for a argument and have you  considered the that a company in Syracuse NY, I believe is called Impact Technologies offers a VAWT with a PMA with vertically stacked rotors that does not using metal rotors and that VAWT is currently being tested at Oswego State College?  Metal rotors will not work with vertically stacked stators. This really is just a experiment. Yes I could be wrong. Thanks for the input.  Do you have any ideas on what would be the optimum coil configuration  for a 1 inch cylinder magnet and 22 AWG wire?
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ghurd

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2010, 10:31:45 PM »
Directed at Thurmond or me?
I used to live in Syracuse, and fish in Oswego, though that is not relevant.

The outer layers of neos should be on a ferrous material.  That's what he means (he will correct me if I am mistaken).

The people at Oswego State College are probably testing stacked design with a ferrous material behind the outer layers, and not the inner layers.

I never compared my truck's MPG at 70MPH with tires at 40PSI and 0PSI, but some things are obvious.
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Tritium

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2010, 10:40:06 PM »
No argument is intended, just trying to share what I have learned here.

I have not constructed a PMA with non-ferrous rotors.  I trust the poor results of the "Wood AX" a wooden rotor machine (I believe that was the name) that the owners of this board built in the distant past. I also trust such experts such as Hugh Piggott, Flux and the owners of this board who have built countless PMA's and provided extensive results from their testing. All indications are that your magnets are probably shorting the flux between adjacent magnets on the same rotor instead of the flux crossing the gap that has copper in it. You don't need bigger magnets or more efficient coil geometries. You need to "channel" the flux you have across the gap between rotors. If there is a way to do this without a ferrous metal backing I do not know how it could be done.  The mentioned experts also will tell you that you can build multiple stator machines but they do not use materials as efficiently as a single stator dual steel rotor machine i.e. using the same materials your machine will have a greater output in the single stator, dual rotor design.

I absolutely applaud your efforts. You are a builder not a armchair engineer as shown by your real life builds, however, it is not necessarily a wise thing to ignore other peoples mistakes and repeat them.

Yes what Ghurd said Outer rotors in a multiple stator machine should be a ferrous material.

Thurmond
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 10:47:35 PM by Tritium »

GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2010, 10:42:45 PM »
It will be fun to see what it does with a battery.   

I should be able to use this data to generate some values for RPM at different MPH. 

Basically it is showing that vertically stacking the stators will work, I just need a better coil design and stronger magnets.

If you intend to charge a battery, then the only numbers that count are when it is connected to a battery.

I do not see how the listed numbers are useful for any calculations.

Stacked stators will work.  No one said they would not work.  They said the concept was not the most effective utilization of resources.
I can get 25W into a battery from a 3.3" dia x 2.5" long motor with 25.5" dia HAWT blades in less than 30MPH.
G-


Greetings, I really have no experience with PMA's. It is all new to me. I will understand more after I test with a battery. The data is just what I received when I used this procedure and test loads. It is just something that I can use as base line of information to judge if future changes to the design are beneficial, the data can not be used to relate performance of this project to other wind generator unless they use the same test procedures.  I think it would a good idea if this forum had a standard test procedure that everyone could follow, than everyone could judge the performance of there projects under equal conditions  
    It is important that anyone reading the data that I post understand it can only be related to this project and not other wind generators.  Also note that the values are very approximate because of the methods used to obtain them.
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2010, 03:19:30 PM »
Greetings, today I tried to acquire RPM data using data from the road test. I attempted using a variable speed lathe to reproduce the  voltage achieved during the road test and then measure the RPM's using a hand held tachometer. The lowest speed the lathe has is about 200 RPM's, So at this point all I know is the current blade configuration will produce 200 RPM's at approximately 30 MPH. 
   I plan on replacing the stators and magnets for optimal performance and that may create a design that will produce a charging voltage at approximately 10 MPH using direct drive. If not then I can add a belt and pulley configuration with at least a 3 to 1 ratio to achieve my goal.  I still need to perform the road test using a battery for a load. After that I should have a better understanding of how a PMA operates under different loads.  If anyone has a low cost solution to my measuring RPM problem please let me know.
Best regards   
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willib

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2010, 09:39:42 PM »
Hi Goverticle,
i'm not an expert on VAWTs.

But i do know axial flux alternators , and i can tell from the pictures , your magnet spacing is too far apart.

Your question of 1 inch dia. magnets can be answered if you tell me how many you plan on using?

example:
with 1 inch diameter magnets using a 5 inch diameter rotor. this will make a 8 pole machine with 6 coils of course , and your coils will be round and 2 inches in diameter each.
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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2010, 12:15:04 AM »
You can't use a Light Bulb in the tests that you are doing. The Filament of a light is very low resistance when cold and the brighter it gets the higher the resistance is. So in the end, your measurements are meaningless. You need to use a fixed resister to get any meaningful data. I really like Ghurds idea about plugging it into your cigarette lighter and using the car battery.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 01:04:33 PM by wooferhound »