Author Topic: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?  (Read 4787 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ghurd

  • Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 8059
Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« on: August 06, 2010, 03:44:15 PM »
I am working on another small motor conversion.
2-Pole single phase motor with start and run windings.
Pretty sure it will be high volts and low amps.

How low frequency will a typical, consumer grade, generic transformer based wall-wart operate with decent results?

For some reason 25Hz sticks in my mind.

Guessing this one would be suited to cut in somewhere around 7 or 8Hz, though it will be far above 12V by then.
I can start looking at my options now if a generic transformer is a workable plan.

G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

Rover

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 788
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2010, 05:03:01 PM »
With the variations, even among walwart ps's I'm gonna have to say... going to have to test it  Good news is they ain't terribly expensive. I figure you also have some other varaible alternators lying around to test with .

Ou of curiosity, what are you going to load up the supply with?
Rover
<Where did I bury that microcontroller?>

Bruce S

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5375
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2010, 05:50:54 PM »
G-
I have a 30hz 110Vac output for old PBX phone system, my Palm based super-duper do everything mobile phone uses. 110/240Vac 50/60hz output 5.2VD 1A is working on it and charging a 3.7V 1200mAh Battery.

Hope this helps. No telling what the waveform looks like, but the little red LED for charging is on  ;D.
Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

BrianSmith

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2010, 06:51:10 PM »
I'm guess not well below 40Hz.

ghurd

  • Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2010, 06:58:08 PM »
I mean PMA to transformer to battery.

Hi V and Lo A is what I expect the PMA will be good for.
Not very good for direct to a 12V battery.
Figured maybe PMA to transformer would be worth a shot.  Never had much luck with that before.

Load will be a 12V battery.
WAG/Gut feeling 5:1 would be good.

You bet I have some PMAs for testing... but a shortage of transformers.
I smoked a dozen in this range doing tests on a custom controller circuit for charity, leaving about 2 in my inventory.

I wouldn't mind buying some more wall-warts for testing if it has a reasonable chance of success.

Next problem is I figure this conversion is good for maybe 50~75W, total for both phases.
A pair of wall-warts are only good for tests.  Will need something bigger and better if the wall-warts work.

That smoke test for the custom controllers proved wall-warts may be self limited for current, but that means the limiting factor is they smoke.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

Rover

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 788
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2010, 08:38:27 PM »
I.

That smoke test for the custom controllers proved wall-warts may be self limited for current, but that means the limiting factor is they smoke.
G-

I know ..still no answer on the frequency question... no idea... I'd hate to test by magic smoke.. no argiumemt on the current factor if the unit was designrged fo it ... thinking 1000 to 15000 mA   / unit

yeah I know you knew all that .. I'm still tryning to figure out why I posted




Rover
<Where did I bury that microcontroller?>

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2865
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2010, 10:20:18 PM »
It all depends on the input stage of the wall-wart.

 - If it has a transformer ahead of the rectifier and regulator (as is typical of cheap battery-charging devices or supplies for small electronics boxes like modems or ethernet hubs) the maximum rated input voltage must drop in proportion to the drop in frequency from the rated frequency to avoid saturation.  The frequency limit will occur when the raw rectified output is too low for the regulator (in the wart or the device) to function.

If the wall-wart has a raw rectifier and filter followed by a switching regulator/voltage converter (i.e. something like a cord-wart for a laptop), the voltage may be maintained as the frequency drops.
 - In general the frequency can be dropped until the ripple filtering is inadequate to keep the switcher running at a given load.  (By lowering the current draw you can go down further than when drawing full current.  Figure on derating the maximum output current for in-regulation operation in proportion to the frequency.)
 - If the input stage is not a voltage multiplier you can run it on DC, too, and not have worries about derating the output current.  (If it's half-wave you have to connect it a particular way to get it to run on DC.)

Note that a transformer-input wall wart will smoke on a DC supply and a voltage-multiplier input switcher will survive but not run on DC.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 10:23:10 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

dnix71

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2513
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2010, 11:46:29 PM »
Why not go to an appliance house and get a multitap 277/240/208 to 24v transformer. They are used to drive the low voltage relays on high voltage/current contactors, or power alarm systems. There is a certain overdesign builtin because they operate in warm enclosures and are powered on 24/7/365 sometimes depending on the application.

http://www.nextag.com/24vac-transformer/stores-html

Bruce S

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5375
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2010, 09:33:08 AM »

You bet I have some PMAs for testing... but a shortage of transformers.
I smoked a dozen in this range doing tests on a custom controller circuit for charity, leaving about 2 in my inventory.

I wouldn't mind buying some more wall-warts for testing if it has a reasonable chance of success.


That smoke test for the custom controllers proved wall-warts may be self limited for current, but that means the limiting factor is they smoke.
G-
G-;
 Don't go buying any just yet.
 I have a bunch of old Nokia cell phone walwarts.
Let me dump I mean  ;D box a bunch up and send them to you for "Test"

Bruce S
 
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

TomW

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 5130
  • Country: us
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2010, 09:51:58 AM »

You bet I have some PMAs for testing... but a shortage of transformers.
I smoked a dozen in this range doing tests on a custom controller circuit for charity, leaving about 2 in my inventory.

I wouldn't mind buying some more wall-warts for testing if it has a reasonable chance of success.


That smoke test for the custom controllers proved wall-warts may be self limited for current, but that means the limiting factor is they smoke.
G-
G-;
 Don't go buying any just yet.
 I have a bunch of old Nokia cell phone walwarts.
Let me dump I mean  ;D box a bunch up and send them to you for "Test"

Bruce S
 

G;

Yeah, let me look in my "inventory" I got transformers from wallwart size up to 8" concrete block size only heavier. A whole box of various wallwarts AC DC like 5 to 24 volt various power levels.

Yours for the asking. I will send the shipping bill to Bruce.. :D

Nah they are yours and I will ship em at no cost.

Tom

ghurd

  • Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2010, 10:23:35 AM »
Keep getting delayed, sorry.
Save your postage money guys, but thanks just the same.

ULR pretty much answered it.  Not the answer I wanted to hear.
Mixed with Brian's 40Hz reply, pretty sure it is not going to work.

I tried it years ago with poor results too.  Pretty much acted like a short.

I will hang something on-hand for a quick test to see if it has any potential.

Magnet squeezing is down to the one a day rate, with 3 days left to go.
I think it will turn out pretty decent.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

TomW

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 5130
  • Country: us
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2010, 10:33:43 AM »
Keep getting delayed, sorry.
Save your postage money guys, but thanks just the same.

ULR pretty much answered it.  Not the answer I wanted to hear.
Mixed with Brian's 40Hz reply, pretty sure it is not going to work.

I tried it years ago with poor results too.  Pretty much acted like a short.

I will hang something on-hand for a quick test to see if it has any potential.

Magnet squeezing is down to the one a day rate, with 3 days left to go.
I think it will turn out pretty decent.
G-

G;

Have you considered Zubbly's (RIP) "decoupling" trick?

Use some caps to block the initial startup "DC" ?

He did that with his heaters to let the mill get some speed up  before the caps passed the AC.

Get it?

Try it?

Just an idea.

Tom

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2865
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2010, 05:10:35 PM »

Have you considered Zubbly's (RIP) "decoupling" trick?

Use some caps to block the initial startup "DC" ?

He did that with his heaters to let the mill get some speed up  before the caps passed the AC.

I don't think it will do anything useful, Tom.  If the wall-wart doesn't saturate at operating speed it won't saturate from the near-DC of startup, either.  The voltage and frequency are in proportion.  (The genny is just a half-transformer anyhow and the magnetic field in the wall wart transformer is essentially a model of the field from the whirling magnets in the genny - but falling off a bit at very low frequencies due to current decay from wiring resistance).

Zubbly's capacitor hack was to ease startup and get out of stall by unloading the genny at low speeds.  It wasn't needed to protect the output transformers.  (If anything it would make things harder on them at HIGH speeds.)

TomW

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 5130
  • Country: us
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2010, 06:59:11 AM »

Have you considered Zubbly's (RIP) "decoupling" trick?

Use some caps to block the initial startup "DC" ?

He did that with his heaters to let the mill get some speed up  before the caps passed the AC.

I don't think it will do anything useful, Tom.  If the wall-wart doesn't saturate at operating speed it won't saturate from the near-DC of startup, either.  The voltage and frequency are in proportion.  (The genny is just a half-transformer anyhow and the magnetic field in the wall wart transformer is essentially a model of the field from the whirling magnets in the genny - but falling off a bit at very low frequencies due to current decay from wiring resistance).

Zubbly's capacitor hack was to ease startup and get out of stall by unloading the genny at low speeds.  It wasn't needed to protect the output transformers.  (If anything it would make things harder on them at HIGH speeds.)

Maybe I was confused on "why" a transformer stalls a mill at start up.

I always assumed it was the apparent DC short as the voltage just starts to be generated since it is slowly rising DC at first...

That was my reason for the caps. I was not looking at  the resonance at higher speeds but it would exist at some level.

I just toss ideas and seldom work out every detail because explaining in text to folks that may or may not understand is rather clumsy

Feeding an inductor thru a cap is definitely a different animal than feeding a resistance with a cap.

Too many decades working with RF so anything below RF is in the "DC" category as a byproduct or power source ;D

Tom

boB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 389
  • Country: us
    • boB
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2010, 02:07:47 PM »

The theory sounds good.  I think it might depend on the size of the transformer (resistance) etc.
Maybe if the turbine cannot overcome the inital DC resistance, it might have a problem starting up
in low winds.  I would think that in higher winds that it would overcome almost anything and start up ??

Sounds like something to try...  Short out the turbine to brake it, then let it run into a transformer.

I would think that a wall wart's resistance would be too high to stop a medium sized turbine though.

Just my thoughts.
boB

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
  • Country: 00
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2010, 02:32:15 PM »
"I don't think it will do anything useful, Tom.  If the wall-wart doesn't saturate at operating speed it won't saturate from the near-DC of startup, either.  The voltage and frequency are in proportion.  (The genny is just a half-transformer anyhow and the magnetic field in the wall wart transformer is essentially a model of the field from the whirling magnets in the genny - but falling off a bit at very low frequencies due to current decay from wiring resistance)."


One problem is the transformer has to be oversized due to the low efficiency of the alternator, at startup you have the lowest torque available and the highest flux in the transformer. Once you start dropping half the voltage in the coil and transmission line you end up with a transformer that is twice as big as needed.
This is not a big deal however, because doubling the physical dimensions of a transformer quadruple the power rating, but only triples the core losses.
This isn't to say that you can't have some saturation at startup, but probably not very much.

EDIT:
strictly speaking the statement that the core will face the same Bmax at start up and operating speed means zero resistance,
forgot to mention that the amount of power you can send through a transformer follows the square of the flux, so over sizing it severely increases cost.
I would be hesitant to stick a star delta switch on the primary due to additional circulating losses in delta.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 02:37:36 PM by joestue »
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2865
Re: Min HZ for Wall-Wart Transformer?
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2010, 05:12:09 PM »

Have you considered Zubbly's (RIP) "decoupling" trick?

Use some caps to block the initial startup "DC" ?

He did that with his heaters to let the mill get some speed up  before the caps passed the AC.

I don't think it will do anything useful, Tom.  If the wall-wart doesn't saturate at operating speed it won't saturate from the near-DC of startup, either.  The voltage and frequency are in proportion.  (The genny is just a half-transformer anyhow and the magnetic field in the wall wart transformer is essentially a model of the field from the whirling magnets in the genny - but falling off a bit at very low frequencies due to current decay from wiring resistance).

Zubbly's capacitor hack was to ease startup and get out of stall by unloading the genny at low speeds.  It wasn't needed to protect the output transformers.  (If anything it would make things harder on them at HIGH speeds.)

Maybe I was confused on "why" a transformer stalls a mill at start up.

I always assumed it was the apparent DC short as the voltage just starts to be generated since it is slowly rising DC at first...

That was my reason for the caps. I was not looking at  the resonance at higher speeds but it would exist at some level.

Yes, that is the reason for the caps.  The magnetization current of (a big) transformer looks enough like a short at very low speeds that it loads the genny enough on startup to apparently be an issue if you have a cogging problem.  And yes, as the frequency approached the resonance of the caps and the coils the voltages and currents would go WAY up.  But that wasn't my point.

My point was that the usual issue with saturating a transformer by feeding it low frequency power doesn't apply when the feed is the output of a genny (either a permanent magnet alternator or a cored-type whether permanent magnet, excited, or self-excited induction type) driven by a "wild RPM" prime-mover (like wind).

The transformer saturation on low frequency issue relates to lowering the frequency while maintaining the voltage.  At lower frequencies the current has longer to build, increasing the magnetization of the core.  Of course transformers aren't designed with a lot of extra core material.  So if you lower the frequency sufficiently you saturate what you have, after which bad overcurrents happen.

But for a PMA the voltage drops in proportion to the frequency.  So, to a first approximation, the current and magnetization remain the same.  (In fact, as you lower the frequency, resistance has more time to make the current decay, so the transformer current and magnetization actually drop a tad with lower frequencies.)  So if your transformer doesn't saturate at your maximum open-circuit voltage at your maximum RPM, it won't saturate at any lower RPM.

For generators with cores and excitation the situation is similar:  The output of the genny is limited by the saturation of its own core.  So if your transformer doesn't saturate at the open circuit voltage of the highest RPM (below RPMs where reactance limiting becomes significant) with the genny core saturated, it won't saturate at any lower RPM.

Putting a cap in series with the transformer doesn't help this.  Further, even if you're NOT near the resonance (and the loaded transformer is acting more like a resistance with a parallel inductance than a pure inductor resonating with the cap), the series capacitor causes current to increase with increasing frequency.  This, combined with the rising voltage, produces a double-whammy that might encourage the transformer to saturate at high RPM and will certainly exacerbate the problems for the regulator.