Author Topic: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt  (Read 8954 times)

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zander1976

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Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« on: August 09, 2010, 10:19:00 AM »
Hello,

Not a practical question but what kind of motors do people use in kilo watt or mega watt towers? Is it just a giant PM motor? When people say kilo watt tower do they mean 1 kilowatt per hour.

Thanks, Ben

electrondady1

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2010, 07:54:56 AM »
the big windfarm types use induction motors and transmissions
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 07:56:33 AM by electrondady1 »

zander1976

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2010, 02:55:59 PM »
Why don't people use Induction Motors for DIY projects.

Thanks, Ben

ghurd

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2010, 02:59:55 PM »
Probably the transmission part.

Breezy turbines use induction motors, but the system is a bit complicated.
I hear they don't mention it is complicated until after you buy the plans, then they sell you another set of plans about the complicated stuff.
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zander1976

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2010, 03:47:22 PM »
LOL, nice. Got to love scams like that one. In the mean time I was reading this:

Dangerous link to illegal activity removed. TW

It looks very interesting. I can see me burning my house down though.. :)

Thanks, Ben
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 04:24:52 PM by TomW »

Rover

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2010, 04:06:51 PM »
Extremely bad site....Extremely NOT a wealth of knowledge

"Wire the motor so you can hook it up to 220V, that way you can push more power through smaller wire.  Of course, use recommended breakers, motor starting relays, whatever is recommended by the national electric code, your utility, friends and neighbors.  I'm not responsible for anything.  I did hear that one utility near me, PGE, is starting to prosecute people for Grid Tying illegally.  Might be a lot of red tape to cut through for an individual system, but eventually somebody will get a cookie cutter system approved that they will like."

You must be kidding...
Rover
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TomW

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2010, 04:27:50 PM »
Extremely bad site....Extremely NOT a wealth of knowledge

You must be kidding...

I killed the link because I am NOT kidding. Its a dangerous, illegal process. As simple as that.

Tom

ghurd

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2010, 04:35:55 PM »
What neither mention (at least I did not see it),
is the fact it is illegal with out a giant pile of expensive UL listed stuff.

From your link-
"Is Grid Tie Affordable?
In a word, yes  ....  and do it for only a couple hundred dollars. More specifics later."

A couple hundred? LOL

'More specifics later' could mention some of this?
I don't think the required switch boxes could be had for a couple hundred, let alone the rest of it.
Dang...  The required grounding measures cost a couple hundred many places.  Multiple rods, conductors, arrestors, etc.
An approved legal sign may cost $100? (legally pre-approved signage is not cheap)
Some places charge a couple hundred for the paperwork and fees to begin to consider the legality of the system being connected.
Some places charge to come inspect it.  (it is their wire and controls that are in danger of being damaged, it could be construed it is their fault your neighbors TVs and computers exploded in flames when your system went south, their linesmen, and their lineman's life insurance policies 'on the line')
Some places come inspect it multiple times, with a charge for each inspection.

<rant starts now warning>
These sellers with plug-in $69 grid-tie inverters on ebay should be prosecuted.
I suppose they can't prosecute because the seller's videos never actually show one being connected to the Grid.
It should be something people notice when they go through all the connection crap, but never manage to actually 'plug it into the live outlet' which must be within 3' of the work bench?
<end rant>

Those hucksters do not mention the dangers.
People die doing it wrong, and people die because it was done wrong, and people die because they believed some crap they read or heard somewhere.
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jeraklidis

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2010, 06:37:16 PM »
Totally agree with you ghurd...

Between your transfer switch, surge arrester, sub panels, grounding rods, circuit breakers, 3-wire (uf) runs ,etc the $100 will cover the tax but not the gas to drive it home. Also you might notice I haven't even spoke about the inverter or controller yet..... SO PLEASE understand its and open fire pit and all you have to do is shovel money in it....

Rover

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2010, 11:51:47 PM »


I killed the link because I am NOT kidding. Its a dangerous, illegal process. As simple as that.

Tom

I was hoping you would...
Rover
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SparWeb

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2010, 02:26:23 PM »
Aw shucks.  I'm too late to see the junk parade.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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tdmack

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2011, 06:48:43 PM »
ghurd

 â€œI hear they don't mention it is complicated until after you buy the plans, then they sell you another set of plans about the complicated stuff.”

The above statement is slanderous.


Tim

wdyasq

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2011, 07:12:50 PM »
ghurd

 â€œI hear they don't mention it is complicated until after you buy the plans, then they sell you another set of plans about the complicated stuff.”

The above statement is slanderous.


Tim

Is it slander if it is the truth?

Ron
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

TomW

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2011, 07:25:48 PM »
ghurd

 â€œI hear they don't mention it is complicated until after you buy the plans, then they sell you another set of plans about the complicated stuff.”

The above statement is slanderous.


Tim

Is it slander if it is the truth?

Ron
Wrong.

Actually, it would be "libel" if it was a lie that defames them.

Slander is spoken, libel is written. Both are fairly hard to prove.

Been there, done that.

Amateurs.

Tom

gizmo

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2011, 09:11:04 PM »
Many of the new big turbines use a permanent magnet alternator. Looks like a big F&P Smartdrive. I visited a wind farm in north Queensland and all the turbines where permanent magnet type, feeding wild 3phase AC into a grid tie inverter. I wrote about it here http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/articles/Ravenshoe.asp

The permanent magnet types are a lot lighter, and eliminate gear boxes, so tend to need less maintenance.

Glenn

ChrisOlson

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2011, 09:39:27 PM »
<rant starts now warning>
These sellers with plug-in $69 grid-tie inverters on ebay should be prosecuted.
I suppose they can't prosecute because the seller's videos never actually show one being connected to the Grid.

Glen, only on ebay?  You can buy those illegal "grid tie inverters" from people who sell them to unsuspecting people who hook them up without even realizing that what they're doing is illegal, and running the risk of killing a lineman
http://www.mwands.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=387

You can even get 'em for wind with a 30 day warranty on the inverter
http://www.mwands.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=378

--
Chris

Norm

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2011, 10:18:31 PM »
Actually I see no sense to grid tie....I wonder how many of us really have an excess of elictricity
that we can sell it to the grid....and even if they did it would be more feasible to charge batteries
for a couple of electric cars .....a gallon of gas cost about $3.50 (?) nowadays.....that's about
10 kilowatts....how many miles to a kilowatt do they get with a hybrid ?
buying a hybrid electric car would be cheaper in the long run than the expense of grid tie equipment ?

back to pedaling the pedgen (about 1.5 kilowatts a month)
 

Norm.

gizmo

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2011, 11:16:11 PM »
Nah I'm talking about the big windfarm type of machines, not the little ones we play around with.




Glenn

fabricator

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2011, 05:38:14 PM »
Basically if you don't have a UL approved inverter from one of the big names managing your system, your chances of an approved grid tie are ZERO.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

fabricator

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2011, 05:47:18 PM »
ghurd

 â€œI hear they don't mention it is complicated until after you buy the plans, then they sell you another set of plans about the complicated stuff.”

The above statement is slanderous.


Tim

TD, why don't you mention the dog you have in this fight? I believe you have a stake in or are one of the principals in Breezy. As they are with the blades they come with they have a VERY narrow useful power band, is that controller UL approved for grid tie?
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

tdmack

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2011, 06:43:16 PM »
Gee Fabricator
If I mention my name Tim McCall the company (very small company, I've still got my day job) Prairie Turbines or the product Breezy 5.5 a homebuilt induction grid tied turbine, I get called out for “pimping my company and/or products” (Tom W).  If I don't mention any of this it is insinuated that somehow I'm trying to be dishonest, a little hard to win this one. 
Actually I'm just trying to respond to some of the misinformation.  I'm not trying to deceive anyone.

I'm not sure what you mean by “narrow band of wind”.  The 5.5k version comes online at 10 mph or so and maxes out with 5.5 kw at  23 mph and stays at 5.5kw (actually creeps up very  slightly) is as much as 70mph.  Beyond 70mph I can't say with certainty.  Incidentally, I don't recommend operation in wind this high.
Below 10mph the turbine cycles online and off.

Tim McCall

wdyasq

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2011, 07:03:38 PM »
fabricator,

Some states, Texas is included, allow one to grid-tie an induction motor and over-drive it. So, if one had a PLC (could be UL listed) and a UL listed motor, I can't see why it would not meet the letter of the law, at least where I am.

As far as someone 'pimping' themselves, if you don't advance your own business, who will?

Ron
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

tdmack

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2011, 07:07:00 PM »
Frabricator

I missed answering your second question about being UL approved.  If I build someone a controller it is understood that it is built with UL approved components and that it hasn't been certified as a whole by UL.  The pre-wired enclosures that I build ( this is a homebuilt turbine and the information to wire the components together and build a control circuit is included in the book or downloadable) have components and wiring practice which was planned and mutually agreed on by an engineer with Duke Energy (a large power company) and myself.  Although there are a few areas (some parts of Missouri mostly) that will not let you connect one of them in most locations they  have been allowed to connect. 

Note:  The control has a pic microcontroller involved in which I do not provide source code or schematics.  Actually there is no information in the plans to build the slip-ring, torque limiter, motor, capacitors, or hall devices.  These are all components and considered beyond the scope of the plans.

Tim McCall


ghurd

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2011, 10:22:12 PM »
ghurd

 â€œI hear they don't mention it is complicated until after you buy the plans, then they sell you another set of plans about the complicated stuff.”

The above statement is slanderous.


Tim

I said I heard it.  It is true.  That's what I heard.
I did not buy or see the plans.

I "believe" your interpretation of scope of a UL Listing is greatly underestimated.
If I use UL listed electrical tape to tape a UL listed clothes iron to a UL listed water heater and plug the UL listed 115VAC iron into 220VAC (or 115VAC) via UL listed plus and outlets through a UL listed #18 extension cord, does that make it a UL listed water heater?



Note:  The control has a pic microcontroller involved in which I do not provide source code or schematics.  Actually there is no information in the plans to build the slip-ring, torque limiter, motor, capacitors, or hall devices.  These are all components and considered beyond the scope of the plans.

Tim McCall



I do not know what your plans include now, or did not include at an earlier date,
But this sounds a bit "complicated" to me, especially if you (the seller) doesn't know how to do it,


Note:  The control has a pic microcontroller involved in which I do not provide source code or schematics.  Actually there is no information in the plans to build the slip-ring, torque limiter, motor, capacitors, or hall devices.  These are all components and considered beyond the scope of the plans.

Tim McCall


Isn't the motor choice, and required caps, extremely important to the project's potential sucess?


Now is later than now was earlier than it was before now is now.  ???
Perhaps you should specify the details regarding:
"Is Grid Tie Affordable?
In a word, yes  ....  and do it for only a couple hundred dollars. More specifics later."
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ghurd

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2011, 12:07:14 AM »
1 July 2007
"There is nothing complicated or complex about grid connecting an induction motor/generator whether powered by wind, hydro, or steam. A key item is of course the "speed sensor. For an excellent example one could use a PIC chip to control the relays with a hall device situated at the motor shaft to feed pulses into the PIC which are in turn used to detect rpm.
In the case of a wind turbine you'll also need a "powered released" brake, gear reduction, and a stall regulated turbine rotor. A properly chosen motor will include the first two and the latter is a very simple rotor which is designed to have an increase in torque output up to a given wind speed and then plateau.
The real beauty of this set-up is that you can grab some real horse power right off the shelf. We do sell most all these components but you can get them locally as well."

You sell parts and plans for the thing, but don't tell how to assemble them?

What IS "in the scope of the plans"?
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

tdmack

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2011, 11:03:42 PM »
1 July 2007
"There is nothing complicated or complex about grid connecting an induction motor/generator whether powered by wind, hydro, or steam. A key item is of course the "speed sensor. For an excellent example one could use a PIC chip to control the relays with a hall device situated at the motor shaft to feed pulses into the PIC which are in turn used to detect rpm.
In the case of a wind turbine you'll also need a "powered released" brake, gear reduction, and a stall regulated turbine rotor. A properly chosen motor will include the first two and the latter is a very simple rotor which is designed to have an increase in torque output up to a given wind speed and then plateau.
The real beauty of this set-up is that you can grab some real horse power right off the shelf. We do sell most all these components but you can get them locally as well."

You sell parts and plans for the thing, but don't tell how to assemble them?

What IS "in the scope of the plans"?

Ghurd
Since you ask……..

The plans/book is a 100 page book that details exactly how to build the Breezy 5.5 induction grid tied turbine generator.  Did you know that being grid tied is the only way that this turbine can be used and that all of them in use are connected to the grid?
The plans/book now comes with a 16 page supplement that adds details for building the 10K version of the turbine at absolutely no additional charge.  In fact everyone who has previously purchased the plans/book Breezy 5.5 can get on our web site at PraireiTurbines dot com and download the supplement for FREE.  There is also a lot of additional information on the site for those who have purchased the book and it is also FREE.  In fact if you decide to build the turbine my cell phone number is listed in the back so that if you have difficulties with the build you may call me.  If fact one of the very first Breezy turbines built was built by a French Canadian and I helped him troubleshoot his turbine through an interpreter.
You can see from the table of  contents that the book explains how to build the blades, rotor hub, drive shaft, frame, nacelle, support structure (tower).  It tells you how to wire it up, gives example of connecting to the grid. Explains final assembly, testing and maintenance.  And it tells you where to get the components you'll need.

Below is the table of contents for the book:

Intro:
  Disclaimer                           3
  Introduction   5
  Economics & Breezy 5.5   6
  Theory of Operation   8
  Blade Failures   10
Fabrication
  Shaping the Rotor Blades   12
  Rotor Hub and Drive Shaft   19
  Frame and Yaw Assembly   28
  Nacelle   42
  Tail-Vane Assembly   45
  Blade Contouring   53
  Balancing the Rotor, Phase 1   56
  Blade Finish   59
  Balancing the Rotor, Phase 2   59
  Support Structure   61
Electric
  Electrical Enclosure   76
  Electrical Wiring   80
  The Power Company Standards and Metering   91
Final Assembly   95
Maintenance   98
Components and Sources   99
10K Supplement   101               





rossw

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2011, 11:32:56 PM »
It tells you how to wire it up, gives example of connecting to the grid. Explains final assembly, testing and maintenance.  And it tells you where to get the components you'll need.

Not withstanding any amount of help and assistance, or a 3 thousand page pictorial, with free instructional DVD and bonus steak-knives, absolutely NOTHING I've seen in this thread indicates that any of what you're "offering" enables the hapless buyer to make a LEGAL installation.

Please note, do not confuse "Safe" or "To code" with "legal" in this context.

I come from another country, with an entirely different set of legal constraints, but from what I understand - MOST of the USA has requirements for a LEGAL installation that you can't comply with in a "DIY" situation. That has very real implications for someone who is injured or killed, or injures or kills someone else through their action or inaction, or who causes property loss or damage, or whos house catches fire, or who causes damage to other equipment...  the lawyers would have an absolute field day. And at some point along the way, someone is likely going to go looking for you because you "failed to exercise due care", or sold a product "not fit for purpose", or were "negligent in your responsibilities" or some other legal weasle term.

Thats my opinion anyhow.... not that it's worth anything... but some clever lawyer in time to come will probably find it, produce it at your hearing, and use it to show that you "were, or should reasonably be aware of your legal responsibilities in this regard"

tdmack

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2011, 11:42:20 PM »
It tells you how to wire it up, gives example of connecting to the grid. Explains final assembly, testing and maintenance.  And it tells you where to get the components you’ll need.

Not withstanding any amount of help and assistance, or a 3 thousand page pictorial, with free instructional DVD and bonus steak-knives, absolutely NOTHING I've seen in this thread indicates that any of what you're "offering" enables the hapless buyer to make a LEGAL installation.

Please note, do not confuse "Safe" or "To code" with "legal" in this context.

I come from another country, with an entirely different set of legal constraints, but from what I understand - MOST of the USA has requirements for a LEGAL installation that you can't comply with in a "DIY" situation. That has very real implications for someone who is injured or killed, or injures or kills someone else through their action or inaction, or who causes property loss or damage, or whos house catches fire, or who causes damage to other equipment...  the lawyers would have an absolute field day. And at some point along the way, someone is likely going to go looking for you because you "failed to exercise due care", or sold a product "not fit for purpose", or were "negligent in your responsibilities" or some other legal weasle term.

Thats my opinion anyhow.... not that it's worth anything... but some clever lawyer in time to come will probably find it, produce it at your hearing, and use it to show that you "were, or should reasonably be aware of your legal responsibilities in this regard"



RossW

If you do a search for Breezy 5.5 on youtube you'll find several links to videos of the turbine.  Keep in mind that most all of them are in the USA and to work they must be connected to the grid.  And you'll have to wire your turbine to the NEC and of course you'll have to get an application for customer generation from the power company.  In most cases it's not difficult, however there are exceptions. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xAKbcl-EqQ

rossw

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2011, 12:09:32 AM »
Keep in mind that most all of them are in the USA and to work they must be connected to the grid.

Just because something works, doesn't make it legal or safe.


Quote
And you'll have to wire your turbine to the NEC and of course you'll have to get an application for customer generation from the power company.

And in most cases, as I understand it anyway, you need it to be signed off by an inspector. Sounds easy. But in most cases, I bet they require the certificate of the installer before they'll sign it off.

At the risk of sounding like a cracked record, JUST BECAUSE YOU DO IT TO CODE DOESN'T MEAN IT'S LEGAL.

I'm not going to be drawn further on this - clearly you either CANNOT see that you're encouraging illegal activity, or you KNOW it's illegal and you're choosing to ignore the fact.

Having 1, or 10, or 1000 installed doesn't make them ANY LESS ILLEGAL.
When faced with volume of numbers as proof of anything, a friend of mine at school used to say "Eat sh!t.... 50 billion flies can't be wrong!"

tdmack

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2011, 01:04:13 AM »
Keep in mind that most all of them are in the USA and to work they must be connected to the grid.

Just because something works, doesn't make it legal or safe.


Quote
And you’ll have to wire your turbine to the NEC and of course you’ll have to get an application for customer generation from the power company.

And in most cases, as I understand it anyway, you need it to be signed off by an inspector. Sounds easy. But in most cases, I bet they require the certificate of the installer before they'll sign it off.

At the risk of sounding like a cracked record, JUST BECAUSE YOU DO IT TO CODE DOESN'T MEAN IT'S LEGAL.

I'm not going to be drawn further on this - clearly you either CANNOT see that you're encouraging illegal activity, or you KNOW it's illegal and you're choosing to ignore the fact.

Having 1, or 10, or 1000 installed doesn't make them ANY LESS ILLEGAL.
When faced with volume of numbers as proof of anything, a friend of mine at school used to say "Eat sh!t.... 50 billion flies can't be wrong!"
RossW

What makes you think these are illegal?
Do you think these guys sneak a 100 foot tower with a ½ ton Breezy 5.5 wind turbine on it up at night and hook to the grid then put the videos on you tube?  Then what? Hide this from the law, the electric company and neighbors?  Just asking. 

Tim McCall
Prairie Turbines
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 01:22:26 AM by tdmack »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2011, 12:32:33 PM »
I believe there is a point tdmack is making and others are missing.  Tdmak mentioned it once but has not been pushing it:

(If I understand this correctly) An overdriven induction motor is a legal way to backfeed the grid in many jurisdictions.  Motors just DO this under some load conditions.

For example:  An electric elevator with counterweights, a controlled DC motor, and an induction motor/DC genset.  (These are the ones that make the sound used by the original Star Trek show for the photon torpedo launch sound effect:  When they've been unused for long enough that the genset has shut down and then you call them, the first thing they do is start the genset, which makes that sound as it starts up.)  When the elevator is decelerating the energy from its momentum is recovered and fed back to the grid through the DC motor-as-generator, DC generator-as-motor, AC induction motor-as-generator.  You can hear the gen set speed up as this happens.  Nothing special was needed to make this happen:  It's a side-effect of the speed control in the DC system ramping down the elevator's speed.  (I wonder if smartmeters are smart enough to accept short intervals of backfeed like this without triggering the "somebody's trying to cheat" alarms, or charging, rather than crediting, for the power given back if it exceeded the rest of the loads?  B-)  )

Doing this is legal (in some places) because it has little risk of islanding.  In the case of elevators and other speed-controlled moving masses, there's a limit to the amount of energy stored, and thus the time it could potentially backfeed an island is limited.  Even if there is a continuous prime-mover attached, unless the power-factor/excitation capacitors are big enough and they and the load are within a rather narrow range and STAY there, the motor will quickly lose excitation and spin up or down to a speed where it won't regain it.  (Also:  On the Breezy:  Once the power is lost even momentarily the brake comes on and stops the mill.)

Because of this, where backfeed of overdriven induction motors is legal, it's something close to "just another motor" for regulatory purposes.  Because it's a backfeed you have to get it approved, of course.  But because it's just an induction motor you can get that if the motor, its controls (the main contactor stuff), and the wiring are all UL approved and to code.  If you don't have UL approval for the REST of the system it may be an issue for your insurance (or some separate code about what kind of mills you can install in mill-hostile jurisdictions).  But it isn't for getting the utility and inspectors to sign off on the backfeed.

For inverters doing backfeed safely and legally is a major engineering job, with extra components and algorithms and a full inverter system check required.  So getting the inverter UL approved was an issue that cost the vendors a bunch of labor, bux, and testing time (including at least one device burned up to prove it won't set its surrounding on fire, explode, or poison the personnel.)  And that cost gets passed on to you, in the form of several extra grand for the grid tie option.  But for overdriven induction motors it's something that's been happening, and well understood, since about the time Tesla and Westinghouse deployed them.  So it's already implied in the UL unit testing and you can often get approval for the application.

(Or at least that's how I understand it, having not actually DONE this or heavily researched the legality issue.)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 12:42:55 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

tdmack

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Re: Kilo Watt or Mega Watt
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2011, 11:13:17 PM »
I believe there is a point tdmack is making and others are missing.  Tdmak mentioned it once but has not been pushing it:

(If I understand this correctly) An overdriven induction motor is a legal way to backfeed the grid in many jurisdictions.  Motors just DO this under some load conditions.

For example:  An electric elevator with counterweights, a controlled DC motor, and an induction motor/DC genset.  (These are the ones that make the sound used by the original Star Trek show for the photon torpedo launch sound effect:  When they've been unused for long enough that the genset has shut down and then you call them, the first thing they do is start the genset, which makes that sound as it starts up.)  When the elevator is decelerating the energy from its momentum is recovered and fed back to the grid through the DC motor-as-generator, DC generator-as-motor, AC induction motor-as-generator.  You can hear the gen set speed up as this happens.  Nothing special was needed to make this happen:  It's a side-effect of the speed control in the DC system ramping down the elevator's speed.  (I wonder if smartmeters are smart enough to accept short intervals of backfeed like this without triggering the "somebody's trying to cheat" alarms, or charging, rather than crediting, for the power given back if it exceeded the rest of the loads?  B-)  )

Doing this is legal (in some places) because it has little risk of islanding.  In the case of elevators and other speed-controlled moving masses, there's a limit to the amount of energy stored, and thus the time it could potentially backfeed an island is limited.  Even if there is a continuous prime-mover attached, unless the power-factor/excitation capacitors are big enough and they and the load are within a rather narrow range and STAY there, the motor will quickly lose excitation and spin up or down to a speed where it won't regain it.  (Also:  On the Breezy:  Once the power is lost even momentarily the brake comes on and stops the mill.)

Because of this, where backfeed of overdriven induction motors is legal, it's something close to "just another motor" for regulatory purposes.  Because it's a backfeed you have to get it approved, of course.  But because it's just an induction motor you can get that if the motor, its controls (the main contactor stuff), and the wiring are all UL approved and to code.  If you don't have UL approval for the REST of the system it may be an issue for your insurance (or some separate code about what kind of mills you can install in mill-hostile jurisdictions).  But it isn't for getting the utility and inspectors to sign off on the backfeed.

For inverters doing backfeed safely and legally is a major engineering job, with extra components and algorithms and a full inverter system check required.  So getting the inverter UL approved was an issue that cost the vendors a bunch of labor, bux, and testing time (including at least one device burned up to prove it won't set its surrounding on fire, explode, or poison the personnel.)  And that cost gets passed on to you, in the form of several extra grand for the grid tie option.  But for overdriven induction motors it's something that's been happening, and well understood, since about the time Tesla and Westinghouse deployed them.  So it's already implied in the UL unit testing and you can often get approval for the application.

(Or at least that's how I understand it, having not actually DONE this or heavily researched the legality issue.)

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

Thanks


It's true induction motors have been used in wind turbines since as far back as the 40s and 50s.  They were usually much larger.  The turbine was never really promoted as anything someone could build themselves.
Until 2005 when we completed testing the Breezy 5.5  prototype there were no plans for a homebuilt induction turbine.
Until 2005 a micro-controller to manage the homebuilt induction wind turbine did not exist.  Sure, you could purchase salvaged units from larger 25 and 50Kw turbines but they fetched a very  healthy price even as surplus.
I designed, built, and wrote the software for the first grid tied induction wind turbine micro-controller specifically targeted for use by the homebuilder. 
At this time I believe the Breezy 10K with it's  23' rotor is the largest induction grid tied wind turbine with plans for the homebuilder that is out there.  I could be mistaken  on this but I have searched. 
There are many of these turbines in operation, mostly US, Canada, and Australia.
The turbines can be built entirely from plans.  The turbine is designed around components that builder can buy locally, order on the internet, or scrounge from salvage.  The turbine can be purchased as a package from us.  These days the micro-controller can be purchased from us or a PLC may be used.

Alan an I have a combined 40 years experience with induction turbines.  At one time we had (3) 25Kw Jay Carter induction generators standing.  I say standing because it was a real task keeping  them all working at the same time. 

.
Tim McCall
Prairie Turbines