Author Topic: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux  (Read 6352 times)

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LazyYogi

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3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« on: October 14, 2010, 04:32:43 AM »
Hi, I am a pupil and I am building a 3 kW aircored axial flux wind turbine as my final year report in order to take my degree.
I have produced a programm in FEMM-Octave that given some inputs (power, wind etc) gives back all the dimensions of the generator, plus it simulates how the generator works. My intention was to build an friendly user programm that everybody can use.
Now, it is time two construct the machine and I am trying to find some magnet suppliers. Any ideas?
I am also working an some kind of cost optimization. In order to do this I am asking the suppliers I have already found how the cost varies with the shape and mass of the magnets. Any ideas on this?
I really have to harry up with the magnet choice so I would be greatful if somebody could help.

PS: Any ideas about the manet thickness? I have chosen 10mm as I have seen it in other generators, but cannot find a formula to calculate this without knowing something else (for example the axial height of the coils).

SparWeb

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Re: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2010, 10:57:20 AM »
You can be more specific about what you want.  On the other hand, if you have a program that you can adapt to available materials, you can change your 10mm for 12.5mm, and then a wide range of 1/2 inch thick magnets become a suitable choice.
What are the other dimensions?

Have you discovered that the site that hosts this forum sells magnets too?  http://www.forcefieldmagnets.com/catalog/

I have also bought from http://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=11  and there seems to be an inexhaustible supply on e-bay.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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LazyYogi

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Re: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2010, 11:20:59 AM »
Thank you very much for your reply. I am new in this forum so I don't know what it can offer yet.

My goal is to find the optimum ai (pole arc to pole pitch ratio) in order to minimize the total cost of the generator.

The magnet shape I have chosen is trapezoidal or wedge and in order to do the optimization I need to know how the cost of the magnet changes in respect to it's shape and weight. So I need to contact some magnet suppliers that can produce magnets on demand. For example, I am interested for trapezoidal magnets with large base a=42,11mm, small base b=24,42mm and the two other (equal) sides c=94mm. Magnet thickness h=10mm. It is really vital that I choose the exact dimensions of the magnets I use. I don't want to choose the magnets first and then decide about the rest of the generator. I really have a problem with the suppliers because they will not give me a general idea of the cost...

As far as the thickness is concerned, I would just like to know if there are any constrictions. For example, why use 12.5mm thick magnets and not 10mm?

Also, I would be grateful if you shared some experience about the ai which I am trying to optimize.

Thank you very much for helping and have a good day!!!

Flux

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Re: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2010, 11:48:00 AM »
If your aim is a commercial design and you need large quantities then magnet manufacturers will be interested.

For the small quantities of home production they are not interested so most people have to make do with common shapes that are produced in quantity. that is the reason why most designs use the rectangular blocks.

I suspect you will not get much help from magnet suppliers until they are convinced you are going to buy lots. They may not be able to give a true idea of price until they know the tooling requirements to produce your shape, but generally once the shape is fixed in terms of area then the cost will be roughly proportional to the thickness.

If you are optimising materials you will soon find that it is best to work at the magnet BH max point so the optimum air gap will bring you to a gap flux of something like 600mT. On this basis you can select your stator thickness to suit the magnet thickness or vice versa.

I am  not aware of anyone having optimised the ratio of magnet width to gap between them, this could be your chance to shine. It wouldn't affect your magnet shape but would alter the disc diameter on which you fit the magnets..

In the end the optimisation will depend a great deal on the type of stator winding you choose. I feel fairly certain that with a 2 layer winding with overlapped coils the optimum will be with gaps half magnet width but I am again fairly certain that with single layer windings you will do better with more spacing between magnets.

Again for final costs you have to consider the relative cost of magnet and copper, the cheapest magnet may not give the lowest cost alternator.

Flux

joestue

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Re: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 03:38:25 PM »
check this guys thesis out. https://oa.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/31185/TMP.objres.74.pdf

...there is no formula to determine magnet thickness.... _everything_ is a compromise.

magnet cost is roughly proportional to volume in quantity, provided there are no complex curves that require the die to be made in two or more parts.

one difficulty in identifying the optimal electrical width of the magnets is the rectifier load presented to the machine, as all large motors are sine wave machine... there's a reason bldc motors are rare over a few kw, they just aren't efficient enough. as is explained in that thesis paper, the width of the magnets is primary there to reduce harmonic content, not maximize machine output.  because these axial wind turbine machines typically operate at 55-70% efficiency you can throw all this optimisation out the window, and just figure out how to get the most copper in the disk, for example, should a nylon wire form be used and a standard three phase full pitch coil be used. i'd say yes, because you would be able to double the amount of copper in the machine.
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willib

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Re: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 05:53:38 PM »
Why not use round disk magnets.
it makes winding the coils much easier.   ;)
get the ones with the holes.
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LazyYogi

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Re: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2010, 03:27:22 AM »
I am hoping the efficiency will be about 90%. It is not a bldc motor. It is a synchronous ac generator...
As the pole arc to pole pitch ratio becomes bigger, the magnets you use become bigger but the generator becomes smaller. Thus, less iron could lead to a lighter machine and also there propably is a point where the total cost reaches a minimum price (Magnet cost goes up, copper, iron and resin cost go down). This is what I am looking for. Light and cheap...

As far as the shape is concerned, using trapezoidal magnets reduces the harmonics but also allows you to have more magnetic material in less volume. Also I will use trapezoidal coils. This allows me to use more copper.

Thank you very much for your applies... Flux was right... Suppliers are not really helpfull. Some of them already told me that the minimum order for custom made magnets is 2000E...

SparWeb

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Re: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2010, 02:30:39 PM »
I am hoping the efficiency will be about 90%. It is not a bldc motor. It is a synchronous ac generator...
Thank you very much for your applies... Flux was right... Suppliers are not really helpfull. Some of them already told me that the minimum order for custom made magnets is 2000E...

I warmly encourage all efforts to understand and design machines, and improvements can be made, so I'm sure you will have success. 

You may find that 90% efficiency is available to you in a wide variety of axial-flux generators, even mediocre ones.  In the cases I've seen, however, this only happens at very light loads.  You can load them significantly more than that and still safely shed the heat coming from I-squared-R loss and eddy currents.  To illustrate what I mean, I can work backwards from your target efficiency:

Assume the input (driving) power is 1000 watts.  You are getting 900 watts output AC electricity, and all of the losses sum to 100 watts.

Assume that 10 watts are the eddy current loss (in the ballpark for air-gap core, more if the stator has laminations)

This leaves you with losses of 90 watts that account for wire resistance.  I will ignore any reactance because (I am told) this is small in the axial design.  Looking at that 90 watts for a moment, some practical experience will tell you that it only takes a small surface area to dissipate that with manageable temperature rise.  Electro-mechanical machines made of copper and steel can handle a lot more heat than that.

Next we can make an assumption about the electric load on the generator.  The generator could be feeding the utility grid at 120VAC.  If this is the case, then the output power of 900W gives:

900W / 1.73 / 120V = 4.3 Amperes per line (3-phase Star)

That same current is also causing heat in the wires due to resistance.  If we only allow 90 watts of such heat, then:

90W / 4.3A / 4.3A = 4.8 Ohms per phase (star)

At this point you can branch out the design, selecting a range of cut-in speeds, diameters, magnet sizes, wire types, and so on.  Eventually you find a set that satisfy your 90% efficiency requirement.  What all of that is done, you will have an axial flux generator optimized for this point.  Build it and put it on the table.

Then someone like me can come along, and drive it with 1200 watts of shaft power.  Now that more power is going in, it will either run faster, or the load will keep the speed constant and more current will flow.  Either way, more output power will be realized.  At the same time, the increased output current will cause higher heat losses as I described above.  It will run less efficiently.  If it's 80%, then your output power is 960 watts (increased) and the heat loss is 240 watts (also increased).

Provided that the materials you used to build this alternator are not so flimsy and fragile that they cannot dissipate the extra heat, you will probably find that more and more power can be poured into the alternator.  More and more power output can be realized despite the lower efficiency.  This doesn't compromise the goal - not at all!  It increases the utility of your generator, in fact.  Testing the unit will tell you what operating speeds and temperatures are safe, and you will rate the power accordingly.

The limiting factor in many electro-mechanical devices is their ability to shed heat.  Not an arbitrary efficiency goal.

I've personally bench tested several different types of generators, and each time I measured high efficiency ~80%+ at low-power ranges and low efficiency at high-power ranges.  Running them very lightly - just above the cut-in speed, and the efficiency stays very high, but the generator realizes only a fraction of its potential.


Good luck, and I hope this was helpful.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

willib

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Re: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2010, 07:17:35 PM »
As far as the shape is concerned, using trapezoidal magnets reduces the harmonics
Really? how so?

Also I will use trapezoidal coils. This allows me to use more copper.
Dosen't a circle have the most area in the smallest space?

Some of them already told me that the minimum order for custom made magnets is 2000E...
sure you could spend gobs of money on freakish magnet shapes, or just order them online for $4.5 to $8.00 each American. Depending on if you want 1.5" Dia. or 2" Dia.
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prasadbodas2000

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Re: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 11:16:10 PM »
Great explanations by Flux, Sparweb and Willib.
While you say you are building a 3KW windmill, I would like to also point out a significant cost component that the tower takes....  :)

joestue

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Re: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2010, 01:53:49 AM »
As far as the shape is concerned, using trapezoidal magnets reduces the harmonics
Really? how so?

Also I will use trapezoidal coils. This allows me to use more copper.
Dosen't a circle have the most area in the smallest space?

Some of them already told me that the minimum order for custom made magnets is 2000E...

sure you could spend gobs of money on freakish magnet shapes, or just order them online for $4.5 to $8.00 each American. Depending on if you want 1.5" Dia. or 2" Dia.


read the thesis paper i linked to, it explains your first two questions. i also have numerous other papers that explain this in great detail.
in addition to that small matter, the bigger the machine (read bigger the volume, area etc) the more power you can extract out of it due to the 4/3rds rule.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

kevbo

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Re: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2010, 10:44:49 AM »
It's good to try to optimize, and certainly won't hurt, but always keep in mind that the fuel is free.  If you can optimize for no additional cost and get a bit more power....GREAT!  If your optimal design costs twice as much and puts out 20% more power....worthless.

The most meaningful measure of wind turbine "efficiency" is in the economics:  energy produced/total cost.     Total cost needs to include time value of initial investment, and cost of ownership over the lifetime of the machine.  It also needs to include the support structure.  If the machine costs twice as much it must last much more than twice as long  or make more than twice the energy to account for the interest on the initial purchase price.  Also, we are in a period of innovation in this field, so spending big $ to purchase an very durable machine may preclude upgrades to the next generation.

Notice the numerator is energy, not power.  Too many "optimal" designs put out a lot of power in high winds, and very little in typical winds...OR they make the opposite error and put out a little power in light winds, and not much more as the wind picks up.  Ideally, a turbine would make power using all the available wind at a site.  Realistically, low winds aren't worth the bother, and high winds are rare and take so much structural strength to utilize that undesirable compromises are forced in other areas. 

electrondady1

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Re: 3kW Aircored Axial Flux
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2010, 09:19:57 AM »
http://www.rishengmagnets.com/

this is a link to a manufacturer i got from "the back shed " forum apparently interested in small custom orders.

my understanding is that efficiency will stay high if the alternator voltage is not held down by the load.
so in regards to sparwebs formula,

Next we can make an assumption about the electric load on the generator.  The generator could be feeding the utility grid at 120VAC.  If this is the case, then the output power of 900W gives:

900W / 1.73 / 120V = 4.3 Amperes per line (3-phase Star)

 does a grid tie inverter always hold the alternator down to 120 volts?