Author Topic: Treadmill Dyno  (Read 165103 times)

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taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #297 on: September 06, 2012, 09:37:19 PM »
I figured it is time for an update for the start of the 2012-2013 school year.

Design work for the new car is moving along at a feverish pace.  According to our most recent CFD models, our new design is 18% better than last year's car  ;D  We also have a few companies lined up for sponsoring the car, which is never a bad thing  :)   We really want to break the North American record of 3169 mpg, which actually is well within reach if we use the best tires, have a slightly lighter and more aerodynamic car and an engine that is maybe 12-14% efficient.

And if other teams are looking at this.... this is not the final version of the design, nor would this be feasible to make into a car since it is too small in many areas.

Large version of photo

http://i49.tinypic.com/2qk1dzs.jpg





More computing power would be nice to have access to for doing these simulations.  4gb of ram really limits things. 8 or even 16 Gb would be much better, with a 3+ ghz quad core.  We have tried running the program on two 8 core computers, but it only uses 4 cores.  Usually its a minimum of 2 hours for a simulation to run, with some going on for 24+ hours.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 10:45:42 PM by taylorp035 »

SparWeb

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #298 on: September 07, 2012, 10:57:46 PM »
Can you speed it up with a coarser mesh?
It's set to "auto" as I see on your full-size screen shot.
Sometimes you can sacrifice accuracy for speed when making early comparisons, then refine the winning choices later.

Inches and BTU's per second?  Even the british don't use BTU's any more.  ;)
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taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #299 on: September 08, 2012, 04:31:02 PM »
Can you speed it up with a coarser mesh?
It's set to "auto" as I see on your full-size screen shot.
Sometimes you can sacrifice accuracy for speed when making early comparisons, then refine the winning choices later.

Inches and BTU's per second?  Even the british don't use BTU's any more.  ;)

The simulations would run faster with a coarser mesh, but that really isn't a big concern... it usually takes me ~3 hours to make a significant drawing change anyways, so I'm not really in a big hurry.

The mesh is set to auto, but then I put a second condition in saying that the mesh size directly around the car should be smaller (1.5").  Far away from the car where it doesn't matter, the mesh size is approximately 6-7".

I don't really care about the units since I can change the units on the results to metric... plus, my air speeds are in mph to make things easy.

After last night's meeting, we found out that the old model wasn't very representative of the actual old car.  So today I plan on making some more changes to the new model to make sure everything fits.  We in particular found that the new model was about 4" narrower at the crank shaft.... and as you guys could guess, we don't have 4" to give up.

We also drove the car around some last night.  It did a really good burnout + launch, which was all recorded on a video camera strapped to a homemade RC helicopter (well actually a tricopter).  The impressive part was that this was all at ~ half throttle.  Eventually the starter pinion decided that it was going to break, so we had to go back in.

taylorp035

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Aerial Burnout Footage
« Reply #300 on: September 09, 2012, 09:40:20 PM »
As promised, some aerial footage of the SAE car doing it's burnout from a very stable rc tri-copter using a go-pro camera.


http://youtu.be/tw87eysHiJU


I hope the youtube function works with this 



Yep... we have too much fun!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 09:44:23 PM by taylorp035 »

Frank S

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #301 on: September 10, 2012, 05:06:29 AM »
the quality of the video from the tri-copter is amazing. you said very stable , that is almost an understatement
You  have way more torque than traction for sure. nice long straight line burn
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taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #302 on: September 10, 2012, 07:25:39 PM »
The Go-Pro shoots in full 1080p at 30 fps and has that bubble look that I really like for outdoor videos.  The tricopter is good for 8 minutes of flying on a single battery.  I wasn't the person who processed the video, so it might of been post-processed to take out any shaking, but I doubt it.

As for torque... the car only has about 45 lbs on the rear wheel.... work the math backwards and that works out to about 4-5 ft*lbs at the crank to make the wheel spin.  With the larger diameter intake pipe and the high compression head, 5 ft*lbs can easily be achieved at 1/2 throttle.  The video didn't catch the rest of the burnout (it lasted another 20-30 feet).

This Friday we hope to drive the car some more and take better video.  We also hope to get some footage of the entire campus from high above  :)

This was from last winter with the same gear ratio and engine, only with a lot more weight on the rear tire.

Up against my 250 cc 4-wheeler, I would say the supermileage car would beat it to 35 mph (approx top speed of both).  I find this very interesting since the 4-wheel should have a 2:1 advantage on hp/lb and it has a 5 speed transmission.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 08:46:11 PM by taylorp035 »

taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #303 on: September 11, 2012, 09:51:32 PM »
Here are two screen shots from today from the tri-copter way up in the air looking over the PSB campus  ;D

http://i49.tinypic.com/2hyhq9f.jpg




You can see Presque Isle State Park in this one!
http://i49.tinypic.com/5bpydt.jpg[/url]




The RC truck drove today for 90 minutes on 3300 mah @6s.... that works out to a 2.25 hour battery life for a 10 hp, 10 lb and 4WD truck.  Not bad.....  it reinforces the stuff I learned in Sytem Dynamics class on electric motors and how the current is increased in a squared fashon vs the gear ratio.... last week the truck only had a ~15 min run time.  The main gear ratio was 24:52.  Now it is 15:65, and it still is too fast for the big soft mud tires :)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 10:41:13 PM by taylorp035 »

taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #304 on: September 22, 2012, 03:02:36 PM »
Now entering the world of miniature spark plugs!  Comparison of the stock plug and the new ones (I know, bad glare..).... we are hoping to go dual spark this year.




SparWeb

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #305 on: September 23, 2012, 12:38:46 AM »
"Honey, I shrunk the car".
Not into models so I had to google that one.
How long do they last?  Or does it even matter since you don't run the engine 9 miles out of 10?
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taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #306 on: September 23, 2012, 01:19:03 PM »
I'm not sure how long they will last... I'm hoping 50-100 hours, since they were about $20 a piece.  Running at competition will only total about 10 minutes of firing over ~75 miles.




Bruce S

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #307 on: September 24, 2012, 09:14:26 AM »
Are you going for simultaneous firing over overlap firing?
If course there is also the fun of building a new head for the engine too. ;D
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taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #308 on: September 24, 2012, 07:45:53 PM »
I think simultaneous, since the dual plugs will probably be positioned symmetrically inside the head.  The capacitive discharge unit we have is meant for a dual piston, 2-stroke engine for model airplanes.  We also received the rpm readout for it today.

The fun of building a new head is going to be my senior design project  :)   There is also a 2nd smaller displacement engine head in the works too.  I also have a ~900 page book on engine design to read in the near future.

Last Friday we got our EFI engine to run for the first time in ~1.5 years.... unfortunately it has no power, but on the plus side all the sensors seems to be working.  We previously were having a hard time getting the position sensor to work properly.

With the new capacitive discharge unit installed on the EFI engine, total power consumption is only ~1.5 amps at idle and 2.5 amps at ~3k rpm.  Much better than last year's which took about 9 amps with the 1 ohm ballast resistor and about 15 amps with out it.  We hope to run some smaller capacity LiFePO4 cells this year so we don't have to work with the battery management modules.... they caused us to have two fail runs last year.  It would be nice to be able to use a super small LiPo pack for the starter + ignition, but the weight savings just isn't there after you add in the extra electronics.  The LiFePO4 cells will limit us to about 30-40 amps on the starter.... something I hope to modify by buying a ~300 watt outrunner and making a 2nd flywheel that is lighter and safer.  Plus, we need more than 1 flywheel for ~10 engines.


taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #309 on: October 04, 2012, 08:51:44 PM »
We finally got the clearance to run the CNC router to cut out our new body.  It's going to be a major undertaking.... I'm guessing at least 3 weeks, if not more.  ~60 cross sections, 2" thick and probably cut from both sides for many of the pieces.

In engine land, we properly set up the timing on the ignition system.  We found that we were firing at about 20 degrees after top dead center.... not very good for power  :)  Also explains the extreme surges of power when we were approaching 4k rpm the last time we ran the engine.  Now it runs much better and doesn't guzzle so much gas.  We also modified a stock head to accept two of our mini sparkplugs, so that will need to be tested.

We also received our carbon fiber for our steering, axles and frame.  I think our entire frame will weigh less than 1.5 lbs.  Some teams go with light weight tube frames that weigh 5-10 lbs made of aluminum or steel.  I bet if you used some 3/8" hollow protruded C.F., you could make one for less than 1/2 lb.  We are not going that route due to our extreme lack of space.  Ours will use square tubes that are reinforced by a flat plate and the body, which greatly increases the moment of inertia.

One of the tricky things that we have to think about is how the deflection from the driver sitting in the car will affect the shape of the body.... the frame will probably bend a good 1/2"  :)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 09:02:13 PM by taylorp035 »

Frank S

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #310 on: October 04, 2012, 10:25:22 PM »
Taylor is there a way you can camber the frame so that the body is stressed then when the driver's weight is added the straightens out and relieving the stress on the body.
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taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #311 on: October 06, 2012, 04:59:30 PM »
Taylor is there a way you can camber the frame so that the body is stressed then when the driver's weight is added the straightens out and relieving the stress on the body.

Well.... yes.  The tubing we bought is straight and the bottom of the car is curved, so there would naturally by a gap between the body and the frame at the center of the car.  So when we actually go to glue everything together, we could manually push the bottom of the car up to meet the frame rails and when the driver sits in it, the shape would be much closer to the original CAD model.  That's a good idea Frank.


Here is a really cool article on Laval University's new car with their research on aerodynamics.  I question a few of their choices and noted the wrong units on the top right graph, but else I'm impressed at the work that went into their design.  I'm definitely jealous of their access to an 8000 processor supercomputer and their large gantry mill for making molds....   

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sae/12MOMD0928/index.php#/6


The part that I really wonder about is that they increased their frontal area by 25% yet decreased their drag coefficient by only 20%.... which should yield higher drag numbers... either I am missing something or they really thought their old car was too small for the driver.   Our new design has a 30% lower drag coefficient and 10 % less frontal area with more room for the driver.

DamonHD

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #312 on: October 07, 2012, 11:54:18 AM »
You'll have to feed the driver to exactly the optimal weight before starting!  B^>

Rgds

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #313 on: October 07, 2012, 06:46:56 PM »
Well, aren't some of the drag forces higher in some of the cases?  That's what I see in the table on the 3rd page of the article.  It seems more like they have "bought" space in the cabin at the "cost" of needing to find design changes to improve efficiency.  The article goes on to show that they have incurred some penalties in cross-winds and turns, depending on the steepness of the turn or the cross-wind, it seems.
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taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #314 on: October 08, 2012, 11:22:09 PM »
Its a very complex problem... obviously it being possible to sway the calculations in your favor... not that I am accusing them of doing so.

Quote
Well, aren't some of the drag forces higher in some of the cases?
Yes.  I'm not sure why the turning drag forces are so high, unless they mean side loading instead.    If they meant the drag forces going around a corner, my calculation figure about a 1.9 degree change between the air hitting the nose and the air at the tail (inverse tangent of 10 ft long car over 300 ft radius).  I highly doubt they modeled that situation.

Based on my simulations so far, the turning force seems like the force perpendicular to the direction of travel for the car.

Quote
It seems more like they have "bought" space in the cabin at the "cost" of needing to find design changes to improve efficiency.

I think you are being kind to me  8)  There are other teams who have done this sideways CFD testing, particualrly the world record holding team.  But I am putting my bets that the wind conditions in southern michigan on a summer day will be fairly tame.  Also, there are trees along most of the track and a concrete barrier on the outsides of the track that should block even more air.  This last year was exceptionally windy...


To make the problem more complicated, the turns are banked.

I think our lower cross sectional area will win the day in the end.  If they are 25% larger, then they must be about .34 m^2.... ours is <.27 m^2 and has in general lower profile airfoils, which have lower drag coefficients.  My current CFD analysis at a 25 deg angle and 15 mph shows a negative drag force  ;D

Also, 25% bigger more means more weight... Laval claimed 94 lbs last year.  We have hopes to hit 70 lbs this year from our 91.4 lbs last year.... which will be quite the achievement considering our limit resources.




http://i46.tinypic.com/2me7arb.png  -  The big version.

SparWeb

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #315 on: October 09, 2012, 01:04:14 AM »
Banked turns...  Your car is narrower...  Should we be worried?


On another subject, why all this talk about airfoils?  You don't have airfoils...  you have a 3-dimensional body.  There's a quote in the article about the Laval team that said a similar thing.  This sounds like an over-simplification.  I'm all in favour of useful simplifications for the sake or making clear decisions, but this one sounds misleading.  Let me just make my point carefully so that I can reassure myself that I'm not going off half-cocked on the subject:
Looking down on the car body you have illustrated, I can easily tell that the rounded nose, curved sides and tapered tail make it look like the cross-section of a typical airfoil.  At a guess it could be a NACA 0015 or something similar with the greatest thickness at about 30% chord.  This sounds like a rational starting point for selecting the overall shape of the body, following which will come the refinements to fit driver, chassis, wheels, fairings, vents and so on. 
Where there seems to be a problem is when I read statements like "...lower airfoil profiles with lower drag coefficients..."  That raised a flag when I read it in the Laval team article, but I assumed the journalist just won't understand these finer details.  But I'm going to pin you down on this for discussion.
A body like your car's, which is a long slender object, will incur considerable amounts of profile drag, but more than that, it will have parasitic drag due to surface texture and irregularities, fairing interfaces, and varying amounts of induced drag from the vortex shed in cross-wind, such as the one I can see in the graphic above.  Each wheel fairing also sheds a vortex.  Has a sum of all these factors been done that gives you confidence that the profile drag rules them all?
Taking the point further, all the charts you find in books and XFOIL and UIUC are done on 2-dimensional models, which implies zero span-wise flow.  I don't think you can make that assumption.  Not even as a rough starting point.  And the reference area (wing cross-section) is different from frontal area of the car you use.  If you have, in fact, selected an airfoil shape for the planform shape of the car, and have reproduced that shape faithfully around the entire perimeter of the car, then can you model a zero-degree angle of attack case and arrive at the same pressure and velocity distribution published in the book?  It would surprise me if you could.

So maybe I'm not interpreting the direction you take correctly, when making comparisons:  When you model the entire car, and run CFD simulations, do you only refer to the frontal area for Cd or do you also use the cross-sectional area in the horizontal plane, too?

If I had a 3 meter wide wind tunnel I'd love to put your car from last year inside it and try validating all the CFD you did on it!

No kidding you can get lift on the car body in a crosswind.  Short "stubby" wings are excellent for generating lift at very high angles of attack, especially when they are adjacent to walls, which is the ground in your car's case.  On the upper side of a 2D airfoil, the flow would separate at 25 degrees, but on your car the cross-flow can just circulate from windward side to leeward side, thereby reattaching some of the flow to the leeward side of the car.  Stall delayed.  (This just repeats what I was going on about above, I just realized).

The Laval team may speak and work in french (though not necessarily), so the term "Turning force" may be a lost translation of "Lateral force" or it may mean "Drag during turns".  Hard to know for sure which way to take it.  Sounds most reasonable to assume they have tabulated the forces in each of the 3 axes:  One longitudinal drag, one laterally, one vertically.  The effect of the lateral force may cause it to turn, but that may depend on where the centroid of the distributed load is applied...

(sorry... gone on and on haven't I?)  :-[
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taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #316 on: October 09, 2012, 04:22:20 PM »
Quote
(sorry... gone on and on haven't I?)  :-[
  Don't worry, I really enjoy what you guys have to say. 


Quote
When you model the entire car, and run CFD simulations, do you only refer to the frontal area for Cd or do you also use the cross-sectional area in the horizontal plane, too?

I only use frontal area from straight on and then use Drag Force = 1/2 * air density * frontal area* Cd * v^2 to calculate the drag coefficient.

For most of my tests, I modeled the car at 15 mph, with the car in a 250" x 100" tall x 150" wide box.  The incoming air is set at 15 mph and the exiting air is at 0 pressure.  I also set the ground to 15 mph with no vertical or sideways air movement.  The 3 remaining sides are marked as unknown.  Strangely, I am getting a drag coefficient of about 0.17 for my newest designs and about 0.22 for my old car.  I wonder why this is so high???  Maybe the 1/2 is absorbed by the Cd, which then the numbers would make more sense.

The one way that we can check it is by comparing the data from our runs on the track.  Since we know the precise elevation of the track, a starting and ending velocity, and the positions, we can work backwards using an excel iteration to figure out the drag coefficient and rolling resistance coefficient.  The problem is that you end up with an equation like  :  constant = Cd + Crr, where Cd is dependent on Crr.  Since we have an approximate value for both, we can figure out the other, but not exactly.  Michelin claims 0.0024 for Crr for the tires we based this on, so when you put that number in, you get a Cr of 0.14, which sounds about right.  But we have no proof that 0.0024 is correct....   I wish the people who spent all their time testing the radial tires would of published some data on our blue tires.  The radials are claimed to be 0.0008 with no tubes and 5-6 bar.  A Michelin representative once said that the radials have the same Crr with tubes as a blue tire tubeless, which would be 0.0024.  Then he claimed that with tubes in the blue tires, that doubles the Crr...... but there is no information out there to support any of this.
Cd   Crr
0.1   0.0028
0.11   0.0027
0.12   0.0026
0.13   0.0025
0.14   0.0024
0.17   0.0021
0.21   0.0017

Quote
Sounds most reasonable to assume they have tabulated the forces in each of the 3 axes:  One longitudinal drag, one laterally, one vertically.
I think I'm going to have to go with you on this one.  The 3 axis make the most sense.  The weird part is that the 0 degree turning force is not zero.  Unless they designed a car that is not symmetrical....   The track is only 28 % turns by distance.



Quote
If I had a 3 meter wide wind tunnel I'd love to put your car from last year inside it and try validating all the CFD you did on it!

Just this past weekend, I made a 1 / 16th scale model on my mini cnc mill.  It wasn't very good, so I may try again today.  We could make a 1/8 scale model, but it would be 15" long and about 3 " square, which would be a little too big for our wind tunnel at school.  And I don't think we can get the wind speed on the tunnel to 8 times the car velocity (80-160 mph)...... after reading some info about the wind tunnel, it's 24" square and 102 mph max.  Our car would be 1.1% of the area of the wind tunnel, so it would ok in that respect.  The problem is that you have to get the car on the ground too, which might be hard to do in the tunnel.  My CFD tests show that the ground has a major influence on the drag (no ground causes ~ 15% more drag).  I have an A-axis rotary head for my mill, so hopefully my 30 day free trial of my g-code program will make it work.

Quote
Has a sum of all these factors been done that gives you confidence that the profile drag rules them all?

My book on supermileage cars says that skin friction drag represents approximately10% and  profile drag is 90%.   We did try and add a giant shark fin down the back of the car and it upped the drag by ~40%   ;D


« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 04:27:28 PM by taylorp035 »

Frank S

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #317 on: October 10, 2012, 04:25:10 AM »
Taylor you might try to play around a bit with the profile surface texture and the textures where there are abutments in the curvature like the cowling extensions in front of the wheels.
 Think of the dimples on a golf ball. these create super micro turbulence eddy's. These eddy's in turn reduce the cf allowing the golf ball to travel further than a smooth ball of the same size & weight. when it comes to micro eddy's size matters too small and the turbulence will not be sufficient to reduce the resistance of flow, too large and they will increase the drag. 
 I learned a little about this from a guy who used to race sail boats both in fresh & saltwater. the 2 having different densities he would vary the way he applied his bottom fouling paint depending on if he was going to compete in fresh or saltwater. he found that an absolute ultra smooth polished and or waxed surface could actually slow his craft over that of having a brushed on slightly roughened texture to his paint. water being 800 times as dense as air it got me to thinking about why golf balls have dimples. I had always thought it was to help cause spin and directional control. this started me to thinking about the football as well a leather football has texture to its surface and will travel further than a slick plastic one of the exact same weight
 Something to think about as long as you are in the modeling stage 
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #318 on: October 10, 2012, 08:48:53 PM »
That's another good point.  My teacher who teaches aerodynamics and fluids at my school is big into sailboat racing and I bet he has something to say about this.  I'm not sure how this would apply to air instead of water though..... I wonder if any of the F1 race cars have anything like this....

Since there is the factor of 800, I wonder if the threshold for the perfect surface finish would actually be 800 times less rough or something like that.  Maybe 10 times.  I have yet to see any team mention this idea.  It would probably only apply up to the widest point on the car, where the velocity gradient stays very high. 

SparWeb

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #319 on: October 11, 2012, 12:43:47 AM »
When you're just guessing, you look at golf balls,
When you're learning, look it up in Anderson,
But if you want Understanding, you need Hoerner.

Try this first:  http://www.amazon.ca/Introduction-Flight-John-Anderson/dp/0073380245/ref=dp_ob_title_bk

(Kind of like "aerodynamics for dummies" except these dummies already know algebra and calculus.  Maybe you already have something like it such as Skip Smith or Blevins.)


Then get this:  http://www.darcorp.com/books/Drag/

You will find the test data on land vehicles to be very interesting.  But you will also get a lot from the early chapters.

On the subject that Frank brought up, you want to look for all parts on "boundary layers".  You can get some guesswork started on vortex generators, if you want to try, however it's still not a science that can predict results, it just helps you weigh choices.

One last note, if I can convince you to buy a copy of Fluid Dynamic Drag, I'd like to recommend that you contact Mr. Hoerner's widow to buy it from her directly.  It sounds funny now, but 20 years ago, before the internet, she maintained the stock of self-published books very diligently, and by word of mouth many aeronautical engineers bought the book(s), which made a tidy retirement income for her.  I think she continues to do so to this day.  Sure you can get it through DARcorp, but I doubt Liselotte gets the same value.  I have all the contact info still pasted into the back page of my copy.
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Frank S

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #320 on: October 11, 2012, 06:53:09 AM »
Spar web I can't remember how many years it has been since I've heard those names.
 wasn't there a chapter or a paper that Hoerner published on wing tips design? I know that canard is the popular name associated with them.
Memory is the one tool that sadly wanes over the years It comes and goes in spurts Like  something I red OH! SO! many years ago pertaining to the reason a Peregrine Falcon could dive at a higher velocity than what was considered terminal for a mass of its weight and why  the oils in the feathers of a goose allowed it to soar effortlessly for miles or that of the albatross whose long flights consumed less energy than what was thought to be reasonably possible.
 Or why a polished bowling ball could be made to curve at the exact moment the bowler desired but one that was not polished would not. while the unpolished ball would deliver a higher strike force that the polished one. This may have been due to its rolling instead of spinning The cobwebs of time are taking over in that area
 In one of the chapters in MR Hoerner's book I think remember he contradicted himself but not entirely there are times when things should be smooth as a polished mirror then there are times when a patterned texture shows a lower resistance 
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SparWeb

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #321 on: October 11, 2012, 02:56:28 PM »
Yea fluid dynamics doesn't go out of date, so dog-eared copies of these books are still found on engineers' shelves.  Then again the land vehicle section of Hoerner covers tests from the 50's and 60's so you can just guess what those cars look like.
FYI a "canard" is only used to mean the stabilizer surface placed ahead of the main wing (opposite to a horizontal tail stabilizer, behind the wing)
And a "winglet" is a small aerofoil that projects at roughly right-angles from a main wing surface.
Winglets are not magic, and they can serve many purposes.  They do not magically improve fuel efficiency or glide ratio just because you bolt some on.
Neither winglets nor canards are relevant to a supermileage vehicle, certainly not to Taylor's current design.

Air is viscous, and drag is related to both the displacement of the flow (profile drag) and the gradient of flow speed at the surface of the vehicle.
I realize now that I've thought about it, a 15 MPH supermileage car will not build up a significant boundary layer so playing around with the laminar/turbulent transition point will not gain much at all.
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taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #322 on: October 11, 2012, 04:07:29 PM »
Some more pcitures:  This is the wheel skirts, about halfway up.


Larger version:
http://i49.tinypic.com/30wo3n4.png


Rear wheel skirt, down the center, with a high mesh density on the bottom ~3".  We plan on making the leading edge a bit more rounded.

Larger Version
http://i50.tinypic.com/14e4ef8.png

Frank S

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #323 on: October 11, 2012, 06:50:14 PM »
 I still have my  old Smoleys book of combined tables I doubt if I have opened it since the days of slide rules though. I used to keep many of my old books at my office at work but after several started to come up missing I no longer keep them there I only hope that the young engineer wannabes who took them will someday understand their value and what the scribbled notes on the onion skin papers I had inserted in so many places stood for.
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SparWeb

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #324 on: October 11, 2012, 10:12:46 PM »
Your wheel fairings are symmetrical airfoils.
If the front pair of wheels had cambered airfoils, with "top" curvature facing outward, there would be less velocity gradient underneath the car.  Think of the space under the car as if it were a duct, and you'll see.
Unless you want the downward suction...  Maybe it's not large enough to matter (your CFD from last month's screen-shot shows virtually no net force, vertically).
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #325 on: October 13, 2012, 09:24:24 AM »
I agree Sparweb that we could design the wheel skirts as to lower the air speed under the car, but the down side is that currently the pressure below the car and above the car is just about perfect....   In our earlier iterations, there was too little pressure on top and too much on the bottom, which was causing air to ride up the sides of the car in the last ~ 3 feet near the tail.

I question if an air foil like you suggest  would have increased drag over the design I have now.  If the aerodynamics were my senior design project and  I could spend 500 hours on it, then maybe I could look into this fun stuff.  But for now, I think we have achieved a fairly good result.  Of course, all of this is much harder to do since it's a 3-D problem.


Last night, we cut the first 3 sections of our foam mold.  The initial coding of the g-code was not very good, so it took a long time to cut out each piece.  It also didn't help that our cnc router was only doing ~30 IPM average and maxed out at 60 IPM..... the router cuts the circles with small line segments, which it not very fast, so we are going to lessen the tolerance on the g-code so the lines are longer and therefore the machine will run faster.  We also figured out how to program it so it cuts like an apple peeler.... it spirals from the top of the piece to the bottom in one continuous cut.

We also stiffened our starter motor mount since we vaporized another starter pinion last night during our on campus car show.  It was too bad, because we had the chance to drag race a v-8 powered lawnmower  (~85 hp). 


SparWeb

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #326 on: October 13, 2012, 07:39:46 PM »
Quote
...we had the chance to drag race a v-8 powered lawnmower
LOL!

Quote
...But for now, I think we have achieved a fairly good result.  ..

I was just being nit-picky on details before.  I think you've achieved an EXCELLENT result!
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #327 on: October 14, 2012, 02:22:34 PM »
Quote
I was just being nit-picky on details before.  I think you've achieved an EXCELLENT result!

It's going to take an excellent result to break the north american mpg record (3169).  Personally, I think 5000-6000 mpg is doable if everything were to go right.  The europeans have proven this to be true with 6000-8000 mpg cars with slightly different rules (mainly a lighter driver, less visibility, easier brake test,....).

taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno Pink Foam Edition
« Reply #328 on: October 21, 2012, 04:56:40 PM »
Progress!!!







We should be able to get another sizable chunk cut for this week, since we are getting better at running the cnc machine and each layer has less to cut (.050" x-y step size with variable z height).

Also, we received our new starter motor, super light weight ESC and new batteries.  I think the motor is ~ 2-3 times lighter than what the euro teams use on their tiny engines (I guess my experience in 15 lb combat robots will finally pay off  ;D  ).

taylorp035

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Re: Treadmill Dyno
« Reply #329 on: October 28, 2012, 08:20:01 PM »
A moderate amount of foam was cut this week.  We are now up to the 30" mark.  We did rough cut all the foam so it is ready to be thrown into the machine.

Else, the mini starter motor was mounted, tested and broken   :-\.   The custom shaft we made for the motor bent.  It lasted for about 30 seconds worth of cranking the engine.  So now we are making a new shaft out of a 1/2" socket head cap screw.  The original piece of steel probably didn't have a very high yield strength.  The small diameter is 5 mm and the largest is 1/2" and about 3" long.  The flat spots are for the Briggs bendix.




While it was cranking over, we were able to get the 4s 65C 1300 mah Lipos toasty, which is a first.  Tomorrow, I hope to put a doc wattson meter inline to see how much power the 400 W motor is really pulling.  We will also probably program the ESC for maximum starting power and specify a 14 pole out-runner.

Here is the motor assembled


« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 09:18:20 PM by taylorp035 »