Author Topic: walp DIY 3.49m wind power generator project (Read 19883 times)

zvizdic · « **Reply #33 on:** January 30, 2011, 02:03:26 PM »

Quote from: Hilltopgrange on January 30, 2011, 12:28:23 PM

Since belt transmission is the best way to go as far as I know

If you really must use a belt then fit double pulleys and 2 belts.

Russell

Minimum 3 belts 3/4 wide enclosed for 8 HP.

Quote from: Hilltopgrange on January 30, 2011, 12:28:23 PM

Since belt transmission is the best way to go as far as I know

Better still use a chain preferably a duplex double chain and keep it well lubed, although I have broke a fair few of those too in the past. The last time was on a Yamaha fj1200 motorcycle at well over 100 mph thankfully I was able to stop and walk away, never rode a big bike since! that chain was top quality and only about 1 month old it even had a scott oiler fitted.

Russell

Double chain Yes .

Yamaha fj1200 is a 120 HP

Hilltopgrange · « **Reply #34 on:** January 30, 2011, 02:22:50 PM »

No the fj12 has a single chain but you can switch it off or brake, a runaway wind turbine is a different beast altogether. I have had a couple of runaways over the years and it is not to be recommended. The point is if the drive belt breaks all you can do is watch!

zvizdic · « **Reply #35 on:** January 30, 2011, 02:53:00 PM »

Quote from: zvizdic on January 28, 2011, 07:17:18 PM

I am a millwright so take my word for, no skimping on a pulleys and no belts it is a 10 HP your talking abut.

This is a way to go on a big machine.

Big and strong bearings maybe a chain from a car engine or two.

It is ChrisOlsons Wind Turbine Transmission

This is my first replay regarding belts and pulleys .

But if he is determined to go that route then I feel he mast bi warned .

I also see no neighbors on that propriety so it can goth destroyed without killing anybody (I hope).

gsw999 · « **Reply #36 on:** January 30, 2011, 08:17:43 PM »

Its a hard one to call , and I DONT HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH CHAINS/PULLEYS , motorbikes seem to always use chains and they have to be able to take some seious $#|+!! but then cars and trucks usually use drivebelts, I would feel alot more comfortable with a chain just my opinion.

zvizdic · « **Reply #37 on:** January 30, 2011, 09:18:56 PM »

Cars use belts to drive water pumps, alternators and AC pumps all together 2-3 Hp max bike chain 120 HP.

Common sense and observing is all you need

Fused · « **Reply #38 on:** January 30, 2011, 09:59:36 PM »

And you just read of chains breaking.

Common sense and observing is all you need

How many auto timing chains or motorcycle chains are left to run 24/7 up on a pole that cannot be monitored or even checked for breakage until the run away has already happened? What will be your warning sign, after its already thrown itself apart?

Just my ideas.

Fused

wolfie · « **Reply #39 on:** January 30, 2011, 11:49:15 PM »

the timing chains and motorcycle chains are on 80-400hp motors not 10hp if i timing chain can do 200,000 miles on a 400hp motor i am sure it would do fine on mill for a bit,,,but instead of a timing chain i would go with a rc60 like used on the conveyors that i built in my factory that run for yrs 24/7 with no maintenance other than every other month checking the oil lvl in the bath they are driven at the speeds an hp that are being talked about here, not 2-7k rpm at massive hp...and they dont break

ghurd · « **Reply #40 on:** January 31, 2011, 08:19:57 AM »

Timing chains only move the cam shaft(s). They do not connect the 400hp to the wheels.
G-

Fused · « **Reply #41 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:39:39 AM »

Years ago, some smart fella gave out the math on comparing miles of wear on a car alt vs using the car alt for a wind generator.
Seems it only took months of running it in a wind mill configuration to compare it to running in a auto to the breaking or wear out point.

I would think the same would apply even more to a slow moving conveyor type chain.

Wish I could find that link.

With the right equipment, a transmission can be built. Its not a project for a newbie build who states "I DONT HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH CHAINS/PULLEYS"
Huge mills may use chains, but they are much slower moving and are maintained by professionals trained on doing just that. Maintaining and watching, and replacing things as they get to their wear point.

Build your first mill according to plans proven to work would be my suggestion.

Fused

Janne · « **Reply #42 on:** January 31, 2011, 01:12:29 PM »

Walp,

About the excitation, the only way to help the induction motor start at lower speeds as far as I know is to add more capacitors to the mix.. That's why the controller I built had the extra bank of switchable caps in there.
Can't say much about the chain drive, but one guy in southern coast of Finland built a 7.5kW / 6m diameter turbine with 2 stage toothed belt drive. It was not very long, until the primary belt was stripped of it's teeth, and though I can't remember the exact size of the belts he used I think they were near 100mm in width.

Quite a few bigger machines around here have been built around the traditional speed up gearbox, and I haven't ever heard any of those that would have suffered a transmission failure. One 6m machine is currently 25years and counting. The drawback with them is that they tend to be noisy, and they need periodic maintenance with their oil bath.

MattM · « **Reply #43 on:** February 01, 2011, 01:01:43 AM »

Quote from: ghurd on January 31, 2011, 08:19:57 AM

Timing chains only move the cam shaft(s). They do not connect the 400hp to the wheels.
G-

Well, except that it does connect to the crankshaft operating at whatever output that does drive the wheels after a few hops.

birdhouse · « **Reply #44 on:** February 01, 2011, 03:24:58 AM »

walp-
i do have a decent amount of experience with moto bike chains. smaller bikes less than 40 horses typically use a 520 chain. slightly bigger bikes us a 525 chain and big bikes typically use a 530 chain. there are also different types of chain. el-cheapo non ringed chains, quality o-ringed chains, and super nice x-ringed chains.

without an oil bath, but with semi regular lubing, a quality o-ring or x-ring chain will go for 10,000 miles. x-ring will go even longer.

my kawi ninja 636 puts out something like 80-90 horse, and has had a 525 x-ring chain on it for over 10,000 miles, with decently frequent lubing. though it is about due for new chain/sprockets. and the rear sprocket is aluminum!

i also have a honda xr-600 dirtbike which puts out way more torque than HP, and it has also been running a 525 x-ring for over 5,000 miles. that bike will do throttle on wheelies in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd gear... and it has a ton of chain slack in these conditions due to the 12 inches of suspension travel in the rear end. the chain gets tighter as the suspension bottoms out. now that's some chain abuse! (can you tell what i do in my free time)?

i doubt a ten HP mill would put much strain on these type of chains. they are designed to take serious abuse, massive torque, rain, dirt, road grime, and a lazy rider that never lubes em, or cleans 'em, yet they still seem to work flawlessly for long durations.

in my mind, a moto chain would be the ideal candidate for a geared unit. i'd be willing to bet you'd get decent lifespan out of an x-ring chain with no oil bath and periodic lubing, though i wouldn't recommend it. oil bath is far superior!

when i read of moto chains, i just had to add what i have witnessed. i'm continually amazed at what moto bike chains can withstand, yet they keep on ticking!

on a seperate note, shaft drive rear ends on moto bikes require less maintinence, yet they also deliver less power. IE: when's the last time you saw a shaft drive moto GP bike??? or any race bike for dirt?

adam

jlt · « **Reply #45 on:** February 01, 2011, 07:13:22 AM »

I watched Your videos .and you starting the machine spinning with a rope. That is why i never use a gear up system anymore .

Hilltopgrange · « **Reply #46 on:** February 01, 2011, 07:15:23 AM »

Chain drive if done correctly will always be better than a belt but it will need to be maintained, that's not so simple when its x number of feet up in the air and exposed to the weather. The way Chris did it should last for many years as it is sealed and to my mind is the way to go with a chain drive.
However to say chains â€œdon`t breakâ€ is not correct, I have replaced many broken chains on all sorts of equipment they can and do break.
My concern was not with a chain drive but rather the suggestion of using a belt and bicycle rim for a pulley, it is not a good idea for a wind turbine!
Russell

walp · « **Reply #47 on:** February 01, 2011, 07:18:03 AM »

Thank you all for your input.

-Janne, how much earlier does the excitation take place with increased capacitance in the beginning of the start up sequence?
Do you have any clue\estimation? I might need to go and ask Totte, who is my expert electrical advisor @ the swedish electronics forum

Zvizdic: Yes, I do also believe that the ordinary belt drive used in cars to power the AC\fan\generator etc are capable of a a few HP's each. The windmill will not reach 8hp output that often, so 3 belts wil probably be enough. Guessing from a estimated Weibull-distribution it will only be a couple of hours a year. (Even though rather mean hours..)

Fused: We have a mill with belt transmission working all right, so I do know that technique works, even though it might be some other easier alternatives out there.
Constructing a strong 70 cm diameter pulley is not a walk in the park.

Birdhouse: Okey, is it hard to synchronize double chains? That would be the strongest and most safe alternative I think, (maybe except for an over dimensionated Gear Assembly.)
However, I think that the probabillity with three belts breaking simultanously is rediculously low, but they might though slip more and more during a very windy day.

jlt: Yes, but if you watch further the other bigger and more effective blade starts all by itself...

The specific clip is outlined below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFMULCVNbqE#t=1m5s

Hilltopgrange: I have abandoned the idea with the bicycle rims... not so cool....weak!!!

However, once again thank you everyone for your input. I will probably need to look for more cheap and neccessary parts like chains, gears, cog-wheels, different pulleys or even a big assembly gear and examine them before deciding!

Slingshot · « **Reply #48 on:** February 01, 2011, 01:29:23 PM »

I'd consider a flat cogged-belt arrangement as seen on the final drive of modern motorcycles, with a simple cover to keep ice and debris off. A chain would require a more-complex sealed oil bath to prevent corrosion and premature wear.

Modern belts are far superior to chains in many power-transmission applications - we're not talking about the V-belts that ran the water pump on your dad's '55 Ford.

Harley-Davidson hasn't used a chain drive on any of their motorcycles for years, having switched to cogged belts for lower maintenance, no lubrication, less pulley wear (compared to sprocket wear), and longer life. My 2006 Ulysses had 100 horsepower coupled by a final-drive belt a little over an inch wide. The belt carried a lifetime warranty on that bike. It would be so understressed in a sometimes-10-hp application (and with no clutch-popping or downshifting) that you'd be more worried about a UFO strike than a broken belt.

walp · « **Reply #49 on:** February 01, 2011, 02:41:57 PM »

Well, you know what slingshot, that was what the chief of mechanics said at my hospital also =)

But as an example, he showed me some very small flat cogged belts though so I think he underestimated the powaah of the turbine!

How large\long were the tooths or coggs? Can you show me a picture?

\walp

Janne · « **Reply #50 on:** February 01, 2011, 03:02:31 PM »

We ran some tests on the induction motor on a test bench before commissioning. The motor tested was;
SEW 5,5kW 284/1700rpm, 220/380V, 20/12A 60Hz.. A geared motor unit.
With 3 x 50ÂµF connected on delta, the motor excitated at 850 rpm, and with the 22ÂµF extra caps (= 3x 72ÂµF total) the excitation speed was 720Rpm, so it gained a bit over 100rpm on the excitation speed.

Slingshot · « **Reply #51 on:** February 01, 2011, 05:18:51 PM »

Quote from: walp on February 01, 2011, 02:41:57 PM

Well, you know what slingshot, that was what the chief of mechanics said at my hospital also =)

But as an example, he showed me some very small flat cogged belts though so I think he underestimated the powaah of the turbine!

How large\long were the tooths or coggs? Can you show me a picture?

\walp

I sold the Ulysses in 2008, but as I recall the teeth on the belt were probably 1/2" or so apart. Here's a picture of a Harley front (transmission) pulley from an accessories catalog: http://www.demonscycle.com/Transmissions/30-Tooth-Front-Drive-p7219549.html

And here's a similar setup on a bike with a 650-horsepower V-10 running nitrous

walp · « **Reply #52 on:** February 02, 2011, 05:24:27 AM »

Holy Bajeebus!

Thats one nice piece of MC... must be a fortune!

I would like to go ballistic on that MC and take that off belt assembly right away!

See, thats the kind of setup im looking for!

Janne: Oh my, by 284/1700RPM you mean ONLY 1700RPM and that 284 is the model/brand/mark or something like that?
Can you please make a simplistic electric diagram\scheme of how the capacitors and motor connections are done?

Please please please!!
The reason why you disconnect them is so that you dont burn the motor when speeding up, right?

But still, how the hell did you excite at about half the rpm!? And by the way, by exciting, you mean high voltage, not just 1-5 Volts dancing up and down? $:-\$

\walp

Janne · « **Reply #53 on:** February 02, 2011, 10:38:03 AM »

Hi,

The 284 means the low speed shaft RPM with rated motor RPM (1700) So the gearbox is with 6 to 1 ratio. By excitation I mean the speed in which the voltage starts rising and eventually stabilizes at about 180V. The reason for disconnecting the extra caps is to reduce the magnetization to more suitable after it has gained some speed.

The motor itself is connected in star, with the star point hooked up to N, and the phases are then hooked up to L1, L2 and L3.. I'll attach a page from the electric diagrams which shows how the capacitors are hooked up.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19385266/kuormasaato.pdf

zvizdic · « **Reply #54 on:** February 02, 2011, 10:03:59 PM »

Quote from: walp on January 28, 2011, 09:23:27 PM

Haha Zvizdic! The only thing you are doing is getting me more and more determined to go the cheap and simple belt pulley-way

Flat cogged-belt would bee good but expensive I see them on CNC machines driving spindle 10HP.

Motorcycle and CNC Machines are not in use on -30 C I would rather use chain.

walp · « **Reply #55 on:** February 03, 2011, 06:41:20 AM »

Janne:
I guess that the 24V-relay is controlled by the frequency somehow (pulse width integrator?). Or do you use the relay in combination with Zener Diodes just as my old analog controller did?

Its really interesting, your solution must be investigated further!

So you get like 180V when reaching 1000 RPM on the motor with the "booster caps" ?
(At what point does it reach 1-5V?, ~700 rpm?)

\walp

Janne · « **Reply #56 on:** February 03, 2011, 03:59:44 PM »

Hi,

Mayby I'll try to explain the whole concept in more detail.
The motor really does excitate at 720rpm. Precisely, when we slowly speeded up the motor with the variable frequency drive we had in this test (we had another 6-pole motor turning this geared unit), it took 720RPM for the voltage to start rising, and it eventually stabilized at about 180V, while we maintained the speed of 720RPM's. The bouncing 1-5V really seemed to be there from the slowest speed that the VFD was able to go.

The controller itself is based on a microcontroller. It senses the main shaft RPM, from a tachometer hooked up to the main shaft, and the voltage from the main generator to see if it has excitated. In normal conditions, it refrains from applying any load, until the generator has been excitated. At about 900RPM on the generator it switches on the first load step, the aux battery charger and a single resistor from a 3-phase resitor element. As speed increases, it switches on more load, and drops the extra capacitors.

The relays you mentioned (contacts hooked up to a capacitor and 24V / 0V) are used to charge one of the capacitors from the 24V battery bank, if the generator fails to excitate at speeds exceeding 1100RPM. It has sometimes happened (not for this particular generator yet, though), that after long times of running just below excitation speeds, the generator refuses to wake up without a little help from a battery, so this condition should also be automatically corrected by the controller.
The controller also incorporates alarms, that can be detected from these figures. Overspeed, generator failing to excitate, tachometer failure, low battery.

Hope this makes sense. All the mentioned RPM figures are main generator speeds, to clear up any confusion.

walp · « **Reply #57 on:** February 04, 2011, 02:01:03 AM »

Holy crap! So it is true about Suomalainens and induction motor+caps skills, you seem to got it in your blood somehow =)

AWESOME explanation!

A 12V battery bank will work as well, right? Or was the PLC\microcontroller on a 24V supply? (Much better efficiency of battery loading + inverter I guess..?)

You had 4 pole 1700 RPM motor, I have a small 8-pole 3-phase 230\380V 830rpm (1/3)hp motor laying around that I eventually gonna test drive with the lathe and laser rpm-counter to see the specifications with different caps... but when? Im swamped right now

The theory should be fairly linear, and the motor would then excite at about half the rpm, which is above 400.

walp · « **Reply #58 on:** February 05, 2011, 07:48:12 AM »

I think I have found the solution now!

We will replace the belt transmission on our current wind mill with (double) duplex cog-gears and two chains, (for reduncancy and added strength).
It was really cheep from a scrap dealer that I happend found.

Will place an order next week!
Approximately 40$ which must be considered fair enough for a double 2:1 transmission system?

This will be an awesome way to try out if its a good solution! The only thing now that Im worried about is the noise...cause two well greased chains shouldnt be able to break on a 2hp_max wind mill simultanously , and shouldnt add that much friction either. =)

\walp

gsw999 · « **Reply #59 on:** February 05, 2011, 10:26:10 AM »

awesome mate , hopefully you will provide plenty of pictures of the project , really interested to see how it works out

zvizdic · « **Reply #60 on:** February 05, 2011, 10:49:13 AM »

Chip and relayable .

That is what I was talking about

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Author Topic: walp DIY 3.49m wind power generator project (Read 19883 times)

Fused

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