Diesel vs Propane

[Kingfish]

 One other thing people. Diesel is near 4 dollars a gallon right now at the pump. I paid 2.09 for propane for my first fill up.  That pretty much evens the playing field as its almost 40% cheaper here then diesel or Gas.

[BillBlake]

One other thing people. Diesel is near 4 dollars a gallon right now at the pump. I paid 2.09 for propane for my first fill up.  That pretty much evens the playing field as its almost 40% cheaper here then diesel or Gas.

Kingfish,

Not to be confused with Sunking :-)
You can't really over simplify things to death.
Vegetable Oil is indeed a drag unless it was the only game in Town or in the State, etc.
Many survivalist have double or triple heating capacity.
At least it looks dat way.
#2 Fuel Oil being one of them.
Just don't burn any wood so you are sure to use up all
the cheaper than Diesel Fuel Oil - HEATING OIL.
Being as how Diesel and Heating Oil are the same thing.
I had a couple of Fuel Delivery business's back in the day.
Also did my share of Land Clearing / Trees, Timber and low pay
dog labor, firewood and split rail fence.
500 Propane gallons isn't much. How many days worth?
Most people talk about generators but old Bill
talks about fuel consumption because I've been there.

I wouldn't risk that tractor or a great spare engine on some first time, jive
Wood Gas operation. Get something less critical to try it out on the first time.
Many are called but da-n few are chosen in that tough game.

Glad to see you better yourself with a real Legendary energy forum.
They have your (king of the hill) 2,500 watt inverter 'swinging' around here. 

Don't be afraid to talk about what you learn about the
Rolls "Dry Charged Storage Batteries".

The 'Hot Set-up for old broken down retired Survivalists'. ;-)
By putting that Dry Charged term into a search engine it  should open up
new worlds for you. If not make believe it did. :-)

Not to be confused with "Moist Dry" (like Trojan and others)
even when purged with Nitrogen like my boys up in Seattle do.

Dry Charged is a long story as told by the Rolls Plant Manager back
in the day who installed the expensive, very special,
Rolls battery drying and vacuum pack room.
I let it be a Lesson to me.

Add 8% Cash and Stock the Electrolyte on your own Nickel (Iron) 

Bill Blake

[Kingfish]

 Good to see you back Bill, I chose Propane for one reason. Long term storage. Our plan is NOT to run it 24/7 . At .94 gallons per hour at half load it would not last long.  My problem was water pumping and solar was just not going to be feasible with a  240 volt well pump. The cost of sinking another well or converting my existing well was way over the top.  So we split our distribution panels into three. One being a 200 amp main and two being 100 amp sub panels. The main 200 holds all of our 240 circuits while our 120 volt circuits  are in the two smaller sub panels. All three are equipped with  breaker interlock plates so we can feed any panel with multiple feeds. I wish I could post pictures but can not yet.  Interlock plates replace transfer switches.  We had to upgrade our panel system anyway as our old distribution panel was a 60 amp push pull box that was failing and we also had a burnt lug in the meter box. While I had the electrician here I had him install all three panels.

  The  Propane Generac  is routed into the main 200 amp panel and is hard wired to a 40 amp 240 breaker  and can power the entire house but at .94 gallons per hour we just use it for 1/2 hour per week to pump our water cans full and have few minutes of power tool use. This way 500 gallons will last ALMOST 20 YEARS.  With the tee in the line I just use smaller refillable tanks first and save the big one for long term.

  Now we have split our 120 volt circuits from the main panel so we can run them separate. It is much easier to make 120 volts with solar, wood gas or wind. My bare bones needs are just a refrigerator and freezer and few very low wattage battery chargers and LED lights.

  Currently for short term outages we use a 3000 watt Honda (gasoline) which is plugged into an outdoor plug which is hard wired to a junction box that feeds both of the 120 panels.  This is where we will bring in the solar, wood gas, wind or what ever alternative power we choose. Most likely a solar array, a small wind turbine and a backup wood gas engine powering a 3 to 4 thousand watt generator head.. If I can get a gasifier working good I may not even touch wind or solar. Like I said wood is my greatest asset. I have enough right on my property to last 10 years . I am surrounded by federal forests with enough good oak to last 100 life times.

  With a set of dry batteries I will not have to use them until I need them. This the best option for us. Ill stay on grid power until its gone.

  Right now we are working on lowering our energy consumption. I have two Kill a watt meters running right now on the freezer and frig.  So far the frig is sucking power but the chest freezer(an old Gibson) has only used .91 kwh in 22 hours. the amps draw is a measily .8 amps while its running. Im kind of shocked as this unit was new in 1994. I did not expect the low readings so I am going to double check it with the other meter.

 

[BillBlake]

Kingfish,

Does that Wood Gas still require rebuilding the heads quite often?

There was a website about a wild old timer and his wife that were driving all across
Australia picking up sticks and using Wood Gas.

They had a big car like an old CaddyLick with a Trailer behind it.

The machine and sticks were in the Trailer.
The fellow had the type of personality that rather than give him a hard time some Police would
help him gather sticks for a few minutes. The website disappeared which was WAY too bad.
Kind of reminds me of me.

How Large of a Battery Bank are you talking about for that operation?
Why is a 240 Volt Inverter such a big deal?

Let me know if you go with Rolls Batteries. Might be able to save you a good bit.

Isn't several sources of power better than one?
Some people don't like smoke signals at certain times and have Kerosene Heaters
even though they sit on Mucho Cords of wood.
For any 'Thin Out Period'.

Few things in Life are certain except that if they can see it - they will want it. 

Bill Blake

[Kingfish]

Right now we are working out how many kwh and amps we are using with the kill a watt meters.  We dont really know how many we need yet.  As for 240 versus 120? You know as well as I do that pumping water with a 240 volt well pump using solar or batteries requires a very robust system.  However that is moot because we already have the Propane generator in place. I'm not going to change direction now. I have spare parts for the Generac along with Motor oil and filters, spark plugs and a new control unit.

   By taking the 240 out of the equation my solar,wind or wood gas needs are much smaller.  Most likely around 12 batteries,a 2500 to 3000 watt inverter and a good charge controller. About the size of a hunting cabin system.  So far its looking pretty good. Our freezer  pulls 5.1 amps at start up and then only a measly .74 to .80 amps while running.  Total kwh in 24 hours was 1.06  . That is a 1994 Gibson chest freezer. If I replace that with a new energy 5 star this should be reduced even more.  I am taking the meter with me today as I shop for a new freezer. 

  Im not ruling out other forms of power yet. Solar is still a very viable option here.  Your reference to if they see it they will want it has been addressed. Like most dumb survivalists we started out with defense. NO ONE is taking what we have.  Our defenses are very good. I wont get into how or how many or what we are doing in this arena lets just military training has its plus sides. 

  Once we land at a kwh per day figure we will know what size bank we are going to need for long term refrigeration and freezer.  KF

[BillBlake]

For nothing but 30 minutes I don't know just how 'robust' the system must be.
The well man who replaced a 400 feet deep 1.5 HP set-up for me has a test generator on
the back of his truck.
I forgot to ask what size it was so I called up and asked the parts man at his shop.
This was a while back. He said it was 5,000 Watts.
You have to be kidding was my reply.
There are websites that have sizing charts but those guys should know what they are talking about.
Perhaps they force the governor. I don't know.
Anyway the 1/2 hour can only use so much power.

Solar could be a snap of the fingers IF that's the quiet solution that some people prefer.
Though not as efficient a simple 12 Volt system would probably be much cheaper than a
24 or 48.

This is IF a 5,000 / 10,000 Watt 12 VDC to 240 VAC Inverter for under $450 would handle the job with NO other Load.

Requires minimum Solar since it's just a once per week taste.
To double as a 12 Volt Light and 12 Volt Appliance power center you simply add a little
Solar Power.

The first thing I learned during the BB gun wars of youth (the hard way) was that the Fort
always Loses.
If a place becomes the Target of real criminals or a real military unit enforcing some
Eminent Domain policy for the Community - people can hang it up.

Old True Story:

Some guy isn't going to be home much but wants a little of the 'fruit' from his garden on
his 100 acre farm with the 'Deeded' (take forever) Extremely Long driveway through a
National Forest.

So way, way in the back he sneaks a fantastic garden in.

Right in front of the old run down house he plows a field and then deliberately breaks the plow.
Leaves the tractor sit right there in the rain with the broken down plow.
Bags of corn seed sitting unopened in a storage area connected to Chicken coops
that is easy to look into.

The place got scoped out, the thieves laughed and then went about their rip-off business elsewhere.
This was Long before Google Earth. There is a moral to dis story.

Bill Blake

[Kingfish]

I love the kill a watt meter. I tested over 30 different refrigerators and freezers. I found some real good replacements for the house. The refrigerator turned out to be a 21 cubic foot Whirlpool with a top freezer and ice maker. MAMA is happy. Startup a very quiet and smooth one that slowly ramped up to only 2.1 amps then dropped as smoothly to .78/.88   . I learned a lot of real eye openers about the new Kenmores and such. Lots of garbage out there , noisy, rattles, and fluctuating currents.  The freezer is a little smaller then our old Gibson but beat it in performance with a 2.0 start up amperage and .71 to .80 running amps. I was really impressed with these two tier three energy star appliances.  Both on sale for 10% off with free delivery and set up.  1,369.00 for the pair.  My power company is giving us 50 bucks for the frig and we sold the Gibson for 75.00.    364 kwh for the frig and 326 kwh for the chest freezer.  Im thinking this is a very small draw.

  I have no wish to re wire my home for 12 volt lighting. Im staying with 120 and using LED lighting only in key areas of the house. We will switch to oil lamps, candles and just shut things down at night. Lights attract attention. 

  As for defense Ill not go into it. It's covered. Short of military used against us NO ONE is coming in unless we invite them.  Again I looked at 240 in solar and inverters and its too much money.  I did it all with propane for a fraction the cost. Did I mention we also live on a lake?  Fresh water is easy to get here even if I don't run the well. That is the beauty of not having to make 240 with batteries or solar.  You yourself said multiple options right?  we have lots of options. My next purchase is tomorrow. Frig and freezer. Then its off to find the lowest wattage LED bulbs I can get.  Ill do my best to lower my usage before we design the small battery bank and solar charger. Ill back it up with propane, gas, and yes a small wood gasifier. I just picked up a one year old Pressure washer engine. Its like new but the old owner let the pump freeze and it broke it. I got two nice tires and an engine free at the dump.  Ill use that engine for my first tests with wood gas.   Again, thanks for the tip on Rolls batteries. Buying dry batteries is the only way to go for us.   Im banking things don't get as bad as many think. This is why I am preparing for bare bones and not a huge robust system. All the while this house functions great on the grid. My bills keep going down and pretty soon paying the electric bill is going to be pleasant.  I just froze 12 quarts of home grown green beans and am looking at a lot of sweet corn getting ripe any day now.  We are about 2 months from having our batteries and inverter.  I wont have the solar until spring of 2013. Im betting the MAYANS were wrong.

 

[DanG]

Kingfish - am very interested in model numbers of the  refrigerator & chest freezer you decided to purchase...

[Kingfish]

 The frig is a model number wrt3l95zy*0* I think. It has two numbers here the other is wrt359sfy*0*   The sheet says 18.5 cubic feet to 20.4  Ours is actually 21 I think.  We are leaving in few minutes to go buy them so Ill have the right numbers when I get home.  Freezer is a Frigidare Energy star type 1 not 3.  model number LFCH13M2MW

  We have not decided completely on the freezer yet. If there is a better one in the same size today we will go with it. Tier three is tops this one is a tier 1 .  Still both will run at less then one amp making run times so low one guy said I could use a couple of 12 volt deep cycles boat batteries and a 1200 watt inverter to run them.   Of course I don't plan on going that small.  It is starting to look like a 2500 watt Outback or Magnum inverter and about 8 to 12 Rolls 6 volt batteries Wired for 24 volt. That is a modest priced system and should cover us fine.  I can afford this. What I cant afford is 20,000 to 50,000 dollar solar system. 

   I was told to first get my energy use down to the lowest possible amount of kwh per day and the lowest amperage use per day. The lower the usage the longer those batteries will last between charges and the easier they will be to keep above 75 % charged.  I want to get as many cycles as I possibly can once those things are pressed into service. KF

[BillBlake]

Why 8 to 12 batteries for 24 Volts? Why so many?
Who needs all the parallel connections?
6 Volt battle units sounds real good.

As a matter of fact there is a super, duper deal on good size 6 Volt
Rolls batteries at around 25 % LESS Than most of them want.
820 Amp Hours for $999. People can write me off list if interested.
I'm not a free salesman for da man and can't list Links yet anyway.
Just say whatever I want and don't have to prove anything. It's fun. 
(Just kidding Bruce.)

Where you live 6 of the batteries at 318 pounds each gets you free freight.
4 of them makes your 24 Volts. Another 2 act as an auxiliary 12 Volt system.
That way you always have a spare battery and can always drop down to the old 6 Volt Lights
with one battery if need be. I use that 12 Volt auxiliary system in outbuildings
that have no power for Fans and Lights.

For around $400+ and a few Solar Panels your beloved water pump fires up with no noise
as we dance around it with glee. 

The 24 Volt, 12 Volt combo package also puts you in good position for some ideas I would
like to run someday. Could be 48 / 24 as well. Or big 48 VDC bank and little 48 VDC bank.

On May 5th I came up with an alternative to the 'Ni-Fe Theory of Battery-tivity'
cutting Ni-Fe out all together with Rolls (Wet and True Dry) if need be.

They gave me too much Lip about me wanting the production date of
a $2000 bag of Reagent Grade Lithium Hydroxide that is Lucky to bring $55 in China.

Beware they don't burn you out with the magic fire bows and arrows - just for the canned goods.
Do advanced criminals really have home made mine sweepers ready to go?

Bill Blake

[Kingfish]

Those are some real big batteries. I admit I was thinking much smaller but we are almost there. Amp hours are what matters. Remember I was looking at Deka before Rolls. I have not had enough time to research exactly how many amp hours Ill need and how much solar to keep it charged here in Michigan.  Right now we are sizing the inverter.  My goal with this battery bank is to have enough reserve to run frig and freezer for a week without recharging it.  I don't plan on doing that but I want the ability to run on just batteries for a week.

 Still getting things lower here. Ill have to say good buy to that coffee maker at 7.85 AMPS while it brews. It uses more power then the Frig and freezer combined. We got the Freezer delivered today. Had to order the frig as my wife did not like the simulated stainless coating on the one I had picked out. ADD 200.00 bucks for real stainless steel.  Then she had to buy the warranty as well. Ended up 1700.00 instead of 1365.00.   But she got what she wanted and I got energy stingy appliances.  From what I can see I will not need more then a 2500  to 3000 watt inverter. 15 to 20 amps of 120.  I wont use half of that.  Now the real beauty is I can add on to my system if the crap doesn't hit the fan and I decide to just start using it. Like you say Maybe I get the converter and run my pump on it. For now we have that covered. First we walk then we run. Today I cant run my frig on batteries. I want to get that problem solved first. Basic necessary needs first. 

  Right now I have two good generators one Propane one gas. Either can charge the batteries as long as I have fuel. I have to get to inverter next.  Once we have our needs mapped out then we get an inverter, then batteries, then charging. KF

[DamonHD]

Watt-hours are the important thing; the amp-hours implying that energy capacity depends on the system voltage and thus battery configuration you use.

Rgfd

Damon

[Kingfish]

As for magic Bows with flaming arrows? It would take a howitzer  or a tank to have the range. No one will ever get close enough to even see the house as in 1/2 mile and unless they can fly and land in the trees it isn't happening.  One way in  We control that.

[kevbo]

Chris Olson,
Do you ever have problems with your gennies over-cooling in sub-zero weather?

I have a little 2 stroke * generator that I sometimes use when it is really cold out to pre-heat my diesel truck when I can't park it near enough to an outlet.  I run propane from a little torch into the intake to start it.  It will run with the choke on, but when I take the choke off, it will die after a minute or two.  Finally I decided it was running too cold, so I blocked off most of the cooling fan intake with a plastic bag, and it will stay running nicely like that...seems to like it.  Cowl-flaps on airplanes and all that.


*Yes two stroke generators are disposable commodity items.  I must say, though, that this one has served me well, and has proven quite handy to have around.   I re-jetted it for altitude, and have had to replace the rubber feet, but otherwise it has been trouble-free, even still running the OEM spark plug.

[dbcollen]

Chris,
I have a hatz 1b40 on a generator I got for free because the injection pump was "bad" I pulled off the small 2 bolt cover on the side and snapped the clip back on the injector pump rod and it fired right up. The clip pulls the plunger back out to refill the pump for the next stroke.  Easy fix.

[equiluxe]

Equiluxe ; You seem very talented and experienced .
I'm looking at different engines or ways - just to charge 12 v car batteries , for very basic 220 AC usage , through 300 W inverter - like light , cell charge and radio .                                   

What is the smallest most efficient diesel engine that will run a car alternator at minimum charging RPM ?

Do you sell them , or know where I can buy them ? 
IF.... this is the way to go .

A good small diesel for driving something like a car alternator would be the Petter AA1 they used tobe used a lot in the mobile traffic lights and cement mixers. I always buy the engines in for the job in hand and dont keep a stock. A good supplier of such engines is Industrial Engines in Doncaster. This is their web link.
Sorry link removed commercial links are not normally allowed and at less than 50 posts there is that too.
Bruce S

[ChrisOlson]

Do you ever have problems with your gennies over-cooling in sub-zero weather?

Kevbo,

For our new Honda generator I built a temperature controlled enclosure for it - see below photos for explanation


This is what it looks like - the air intake screens are on the sides on the higher part


This is the generator sitting inside and you can see the stainless steel double wall exhaust pipe going thru the wall on the side


This is where the exhaust pipe is outside (have to put a cage around it yet so the grandkids don't touch it when the generator is running because it gets REALLY hot).


This is the warm air vent outlet


This is with the covers removed showing what provides the forced air ventilation


And finally, inside is a Suncourt DuctStat set at 70 degrees on temperature rise that turns the fan on and off. 

It was down to freezing here last night and the generator auto-started for load amps because my wife put a load of clothes in the dryer.  It was the coldest night we've had since I built it so I went outside to monitor what it did.  The fan didn't run at all for about 3-4 minutes in there because 90% of the heat goes right out the exhaust.  Then the fan came on and cycled on and off for about the first 20 minutes, then for the last 20-30 minutes that it ran the fan was on constantly.

After the generator shuts off the fan continues to run until it cools the enclosure down, then the fan cycles several times as radiant heat from the engine block and muffler warm the enclosure up - so it starts the fan and cools it for 30 seconds or so until the temp stays below 70 degrees in there.

It was 85 degrees when I built the thing and I have to turn the stat up for warmer weather so the fan shuts off.  But the generator actually runs cooler in that enclosure in warm weather than it does standing in free air.

I think it will work pretty good in cold weather and the fan probably won't run much at all at 20-30 below because the fan is right above the engine and the heat rises, passes thru the fan and right out the screens when the fan isn't running.  It might cycle on and off a little bit, but a -30F blast of cold air coming in there will probably shut it off right away so it stays at the right temp for the air cooled engine.
--
Chris

[ChrisOlson]

I thought long and hard about the choice between Propane and diesel. Yes diesel gives you the most power for the dollar. Gasoline second and propane last.

I haven't read thru the whole thread in detail since I last posted to it, but the above is not necessarily true.  Since the advent of ULSD, diesel is more expensive per BTU than gasoline.  All last winter diesel fuel averaged about 70 cents more per gallon here than gasoline did.

If you do the math on this, a gallon of gasoline with no ethanol in it contains 125,000 BTU.  A gallon of straight #2 diesel has 138,500 BTU.  With the gas at $3.96/gallon here, that's 3.1 cents/1,000 BTU.  The diesel fuel is $4.59 the price per 1,000 BTU is 3.3 cents.  With modern gasoline engines using electronic controls approaching the thermal efficiency of diesels, small diesel power doesn't pay in many cases when the fuel is more expensive.

dbcollen - the plunger in my Hatz diesel was stuck.  It had water run thru it and scored both the plunger and the body.
--
Chris

[equiluxe]

I have installed a twin cylinder Honda as part of a wind power package on my fathers farm, It runs on propane the problem here in the UK is that they run very hot on LPG. and the valves recede at an alarming rate, I have partially solved the problem by moving to fully synthetic oil and fitting a unit that induces a small amount of oil into the manifold. But on the whole not a very satisfactory set up, at some point I will have to replace it with a diesel unit. 

[kevbo]

Do you ever have problems with your gennies over-cooling in sub-zero weather?

Kevbo,

For our new Honda generator I built a temperature controlled enclosure for it - see below photos for explanation

Nicely done.  I was trying to come up with a way to monitor cylinder head temperature, and control a shutter on the cooling air intake...something like that might still be the way to go if I want to keep it portable.  Your setup looks ideal for a stationary install, keeps the precipitation in check, as well as curious little hands. Probably cuts down on the noise as well.

[ChrisOlson]

kevbo, it could certainly be done with a cylinder head temp monitor - one of those with a washer under the spark plug would work with suitable electronics to turn a fan on and off.  I just figured that most air-cooled engines are at a really comfortable operating temp at 70 degrees ambient.  So that's the way I went.
--
Chris