Author Topic: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design  (Read 8770 times)

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dwragon

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Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« on: January 19, 2011, 11:52:22 AM »
Ok, Im new to this site, but I wanted to share a windmill design I came up with. I recently bought a farm in Oklahoma. It had three centerfuge water wells on it. Two electric w/ inground pump, one with the motor above ground, both 3 phase, one with a Ford 6 engine/ Randolf right angle drive, which is inoperable. If one had been a regular windmill, I would have been alot happier. The windmills push sucker rods up and down, and the centerfuges turn right/clockwise. While looking at antique windmills online, I saw one that looked like a very crude anemometer. This would solve my problem very simply, and this is the basic design I came up with. (Sorry, I dont have a camera, and I haven't built it yet, but here goes.) The windmill would have to be very large to push the water (My wells are 90 and 200 feet.) for the center spinner, I would use the one half of an axle off of a junk one ton Dually rear end. On these the axle unbolts from the hub. The brake shoe backing plate mount on the axle would let me mount to a peice of plate steel if I need to, and the park brake would give me a brake to stop it when I need to. I could weld the axle tube to a fitting that would mount to the well casing. The axle would be attached to the sucker rod that drives the centerfuge. Attatched to the axle by the bolt that hold the axle to the hub would be the anemometerwhich would have three blades (Four blades would cause excessive resistance as two blades being pushed against at the same time by the wind, please correct me if I am wrong.). The blades would be made out of, of all things, recycled satillite dishes about ten feet across. There are two types of these dishes, one solid, one made of expanded aluminum metal. Simply cover the expanded metal one with fiberglass resin and a cotten sheet. (Further thought on the subject made me realize that with a cable drive or using the third member right angle gears for a drive, this could also be made to turn a generator.) In addition to all of this, there is only one moving part, so there is little to wear out, and no losses due to gearing.          
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 12:49:04 PM by dwragon »

dwragon

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Re: Newbie, new windmill design
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2011, 12:10:03 PM »
Come on, talk to me, are there any improvements anyone can see, or is this a pretty good design?

tanner0441

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Re: Newbie, new windmill design
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2011, 12:22:23 PM »
Hi

If your going to get water from that depth with a centrifugal pump it is going to take a lot of power and speed, even with a positive displacement pump.  Your not going to suck water from more than 30 feet, if your going to push it up a pipe then you have 10 pounds of water for every gallon in the pipe.

I know nothing of the old farm windmills, but all the drawings of them and the old steam driven mine pumps all use a piston type pump with vertical movement.  The piston has a flap valve in it as it is pushed down the valve opens as the piston is lifted the valve closes and the water is pushed up the pipe.  There is at least one possibly more check valves in the pipe so as the piston is pushed back down the water doesn't just ride up and down.

Pumps in bore holes which I have played with are high pressure low volume pumps, and it is not unusual to cascade several pumps in the line.

Brian.

WindriderNM

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Re: Newbie, new windmill design
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2011, 12:23:06 PM »
that sounds like a heavy mill with several moving parts in the rear end. it would take a massive tower to deal with the forces involved and the weight also it would be very inefficient  
When the dishes fly off people will think the Roswell aliens have returned
If you want to try this i would start with the small dishes first to see if it works.
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TomW

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Re: Newbie, new windmill design
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2011, 12:25:57 PM »
Might get a better response if you add some white space to your posting.

One big long string of unbroken text is hard to decipher for some folks.

Just a general thing that might help get a response.

Tom

dwragon

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Re: Newbie, new windmill design
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2011, 12:33:40 PM »
Might get a better response if you add some white space to your posting.

One big long string of unbroken text is hard to decipher for some folks.

Just a general thing that might help get a response.

Tom
I had not thought of that, will keep in mind next time.

WindriderNM

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Re: Newbie, new windmill design
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2011, 12:34:22 PM »
If you use different types of dishes they would need to be ballenced
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WindriderNM

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Re: Newbie, new windmill design
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2011, 12:39:25 PM »
If this works i will be able use all the dishes i have piled up. probably over 100 of various sizes
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dwragon

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Re: Newbie, new windmill design
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2011, 12:44:51 PM »
that sounds like a heavy mill with several moving parts in the rear end. it would take a massive tower to deal with the forces involved and the weight also it would be very inefficient  
When the dishes fly off people will think the Roswell aliens have returned
If you want to try this i would start with the small dishes first to see if it works.

I would not need the rear end for my designed purpose, I threw that in as an afterthought. Additionally, there would be no need for a tower, the well is at the top of a hill (I may mount it on a ten ft tall water tank I have). I do not think that the entire assembly would weigh more than 150 pounds, most of which would be the pipe attatched to the axle tube, and the drum /hub assembly. The dishes weigh about 25 lbs each I think, and an aluminum irrigation pipe would be what they would initially be edge mounted to.

dwragon

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Re: Newbie, new windmill design
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2011, 12:47:05 PM »
If this works i will be able use all the dishes i have piled up. probably over 100 of various sizes
I have found that the smaller ones make excellent "Generation fat @$$" tractor seats.

ghurd

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2011, 01:02:08 PM »
"I saw one that looked like a very crude anemometer"
Called a VAWT, if I understand what you mean.

17 and a half minutes seems like a pretty short time to expect a reply.
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TomW

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2011, 01:42:48 PM »
17 and a half minutes seems like a pretty short time to expect a reply.
G-

Yeah, I guess it is time for those Job performance Reviews!

Any drive up fast food place would be firing the help with that kind of performance!  :D ;D ???

Anyway, sounds like a behemoth to construct but may be an interesting application of dishes.

G- see me in my office later today for that review!

Tom

fabricator

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2011, 06:55:25 PM »
To me it seems a like a lot of work that will end in dissapointment, there basically aint anything new under the sun, and there is a reason they used and still use the good old fashioned multi bladed water pumping mills, they work, and work and work, IMHO you would be better off just finding one or more of these, or build an axial flux hawt to power submersible pumps, but, what ever way you go, good luck and have fun.
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redtick

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2011, 11:46:12 AM »
I am a member of another Alt Energy board which I will not name.

Others ask about pumping water all the time, but anytime you talk about the "Aeromotor" for pumping water they run backwards.

A raised tank for pressure and storage are out of step with most people today.

It's "glamour green" solar panels, wind generators, battries, inverters and pumps or nothing.


dwragon

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2011, 12:41:06 PM »
Feel free about posting this information on the other site, I could have applied for a patent, but why, I have been a scrounge, all of my life, its the thrill of the hunt. Besides, the parts to build this thing are close to free.
 
In the last 48 hours, I have removed three matching satellite dishs simply by stopping at peoples houses and asking if they wanted them gone. Because it has been raining here for a week (I am currently in Shreveport La) all I had to do was push two of them over (gently when it starts to move, you dont want to let it free fall and smash the dish), (the third took a chain, but I needed it to move the concrete base/pipe anyway.).

The tools I used were a cressent, wire dykes, a sledge hammer, three five gallon buckets of dirt to fill in the hole, and carry off the old concrete so I could use it to fill in holes in my driveway.
    
I looked at alot of the vawt's. They look like someone trying to generate power from spigetti. As for people running backwards from aeromotors, solar does capture more energy, however, that is passive energy. Wind is made from that same energy, it is simply in a differant form, so why not use it. Also many forums promote their specific position on things, which is narrowminded to me.  You have to decide if you are going to follow function befor form, or form follows function. Function isn't always pretty, in fact its usually a ugly factopry in the "INDUSTRIAL" section of town.  I had to make a choice long ago to be myself or run with the rest of the sheep, I dont care what I look like , most of use will be grey and wrinklely in the end (and I dont want to think of the alternitive, dying young to look pretty.).
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 12:51:53 PM by dwragon »

dwragon

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2011, 12:58:10 PM »
I thought of this last nite, an easier way to close the holes in the expanded metal or holely dishes woould be to cover (paint) them with a  paint or epoxy cover, a brush or roller should work fine for this, and add very little more weight to the dish while adding to the strength, however, using the fibergass and cloth would certainly tie the pie peices together better. 

electrondady1

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 02:20:39 PM »
if they're made of expanded metal ,
 they must be those old style,
 8" or 10"  across.

if it was my project,
 i believe i would try to drill a hole maybe 1.5" dia through the exact centre of two of those satellite dishes.
then put them on  a steel shaft maybe 15'-20'long .
hold them in position with locking collars.
flip it up on end secure your purpose built low mass wind vane wings between the outer rims of the those dishes.
two sheets of thin plywood 4'x16' would work for each vane.
your gonna need some shaft coming out past the ends of these things that can fit into bearings.
you may be able to use two bearings on one end but you  may need to run a bearings on both ends.
the higher you put the thing off the ground the better.

if the thing was shaped like a giant gelatin capsule it would look good and probably produce some excellent torque.

start looking around for another dish and build a whole other other windmill.
vawts look good when there are duplicates in a row.
and you can run one alt. off multiple mills
paint them white.

 in order to take advantage of the traditional pumping mechanism you need to change a horizontal rotation into a vertical reciprocation.

it may be an advantage to create electricity and power an electric pump.
 you could switch it in or out as your water requirement  changes.
as you acquire and construct more and more the wind energy captured will allow you to create more and more electricity.


try and keep your revs up !
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 02:37:47 PM by electrondady1 »

dwragon

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 10:16:14 AM »
What I am building will look nothing like a vawts, it will look like a wind speed indicator such as is used by the weather stations (an anemometer, three dishes on arms connected to a pole.). I talked to a friend of mine last night, he works in hydrolics. He said that a diverter valve can be used to hook it up to a generator without overspeeding the generator.

TomW

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 10:56:07 AM »
What I am building will look nothing like a vawts,

By definition if the axle is vertical it is a Vertical Axis Wind Turbine.

Your idea is simply different looking "buckets" to catch the wind. It still is and looks like a VAWT

Just the facts of the matter.

Tom


dwragon

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 11:51:08 AM »
Well it does have an axle, and it is vertical spin, so I must acknowledge that you are right. I presume that a 90 degree change would then make one a hart. (head scratching).   

ghurd

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 12:01:42 PM »
Here is a video of one screaming right along...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tzQ6Bg8ZDM

You will not find many like that because they are about the least workable style.
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dwragon

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 12:31:52 PM »
Well, from my veiwpoint, I'm building it because it best fits my application. In the video, which was silent due to my local library's policies, I could not see where it was made or how fast the wind was moving.

I cant be too far off in using it at my current location, because there are wind generators located on the horizon within sight of my farm. I do know that at the location, in holding onto a 4X4 peice of plywood, I was lifted off my feet and forced to let go of it or result in personal injury.

A seven foot round dish (the smallest I have gathered so far) has a much larger area that this, and the dish shape increases the physics.

Considering that it is the shape that has been used for years to accurately measure wind speed, the same wind speed measurements that everyone here relies on when calculating for their designs, the design cant be to far off. 

ghurd

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2011, 02:03:16 PM »
Might I suggest starting with one in a smaller scale, possibly a prototype made made to scale from the new size dishes?

Or try to find one like it that works when power is being extracted from it (not just free spinning).
Or read up on it more ('drag VAWT').

The forces pushing on the 10' dishes in a 25MPH wind are going to be huge.  And a 50MPH gust?
It is going to be massive, expensive and time consuming, or dangerous.

Just trying to save you some money and frustration.
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electrondady1

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2011, 07:35:02 PM »
the power available will be the power captured by the  concave side.
minus the power required to push the  convex side into the wind.
the only reason drag mills rotate is the curvature of the profile and the ability   to shed the pent up air pressure.
remember there is no real load on an anemometer.
 
if you find yourself short of the power you want you could put a large wind funnel in front of one half of the devise. that's how the Persians did it about 1,000 bc.
if there is a prevailing wind it's easy to rig up but it  interferes with  the ability of a vertical mill to take wind from any direction.
if there is no prevailing wind that funnel would need to rotate
you could experiment with hanging the dishes off the cross bar in such a way as to allow the entire dish to rotate up and present a smaller profile when facing into to the wind.
you seem determined to give it a try.
so hey, if you have a hundred of them, mess around a bit and have some fun.

fabricator

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2011, 07:45:01 PM »
Trying to couple a turbine to an alternator using hydraulics just adds another level of losses in power transmission, and an observation on semantics here, this machine IS a vawt, it spins on a vertical axis.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
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dwragon

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2011, 11:10:08 AM »
Might I suggest starting with one in a smaller scale, possibly a prototype made made to scale from the new size dishes?

Or try to find one like it that works when power is being extracted from it (not just free spinning).
Or read up on it more ('drag VAWT').

The forces pushing on the 10' dishes in a 25MPH wind are going to be huge.  And a 50MPH gust?
It is going to be massive, expensive and time consuming, or dangerous.

Thanks, I'll read up on the drag vawt,

As for the rest, I know that this is going to be massive, maybe expensive, and time consuming, but if the design works in the end, then its worth it. I know that the amount of force on the large dishes will be very large, but thats what it takes to turn generators and well pumps. As for the extremes produced by gusts, these should be taken care of by the hydrolic diverter valves. If it works it works.














tanner0441

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2011, 02:59:02 PM »
Hi

Satellite dishes normally have a large flange or return on the perimeter, which will create tremendous drag. Also you seem concerned about the generator over speeding. The generator will tolerate much more over speed than a twenty foot diameter VAWT.

From my own experience of trying to reinvent the wheel you are more likely to produce bruises than electricity..  Whichever face of the dish the wind pushes on the loading will be very high.

I will be happy to concede if you are successful though....

Brian.

gsw999

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2011, 03:55:00 PM »
no offence but from the video it looks like a complete waste of time, you should put your energy in learning how to build a real windmill or something that will actually produce electric.

Bruce S

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2011, 09:32:53 AM »
no offense but from the video it looks like a complete waste of time, you should put your energy in learning how to build a real windmill or something that will actually produce electric.
gsw999; that one from just viewing would look like a waste of time, but with that nice slow turning you can see, and with the large about of surface area it would be good for higher torque, which would be useful for say a water pumping where torque is needed for lift.

Here's another link that shows different units
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCfEq851cxs&NR=1

I'm pretty sure at least one of the posters is a member here as well.
I know one Lenz2 is a creation of Windstuffnow Ed and he's posted a lot here in the past.
What I think G- was trying to say, start small to get an idea and the mechanics set before going that big.

Should be enough of the much smaller "dish" sized near parabolics around to give them a try first. Plus their size isn't anything to sneeze at  ;) and could with a properly size alternator make some useful power, if nothing more than getting the thought and building process set in mind and hands.
Nothing beats knowledge, and building get you there.
 
Cheers
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gsw999

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2011, 10:23:01 AM »
the idea itself could and probably does work , but it clearly needs scrapping and starting from scratch , im all for VAWT type designs and will make one myself one day hopefully a maglev one :)

Like I say I didnt mean to cause offence was just looking to save the guy some time.

Peace !!!

Bruce S

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2011, 10:38:29 AM »
the idea itself could and probably does work , but it clearly needs scrapping and starting from scratch , I'm all for VAWT type designs and will make one myself one day hopefully a maglev one :)

Like I say I didn't mean to cause offense was just looking to save the guy some time.

Peace !!!
No worries and I agree on the saving time/ energy  ;D
Hopefully my post wasn't too offensive sounding/looking wasn't meant to be that way either  ;)

Cheers!! We survived yet another week to enjoy the weekend!!
Bruce S

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ghurd

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Re: Newbie, new windmill (Satillite Dish) design
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2011, 11:52:51 AM »
the power available will be the power captured by the  concave side.
minus the power required to push the  convex side into the wind.
the only reason drag mills rotate is the curvature of the profile and the ability   to shed the pent up air pressure.
remember there is no real load on an anemometer.
 
if you find yourself short of the power you want you could put a large wind funnel in front of one half of the devise. that's how the Persians did it about 1,000 bc.
if there is a prevailing wind it's easy to rig up but it  interferes with  the ability of a vertical mill to take wind from any direction.
if there is no prevailing wind that funnel would need to rotate
you could experiment with hanging the dishes off the cross bar in such a way as to allow the entire dish to rotate up and present a smaller profile when facing into to the wind.
you seem determined to give it a try.
so hey, if you have a hundred of them, mess around a bit and have some fun.

E-Dady sums it up Great except for another thing or 2.

The downwind moving dish must go slower than the wind.  0.7TSR is a common number?
In a 10MPH wind, the downwind moving dish is going 7MPH.
The upwind dish is moving into the wind at 7MPH too.  Combined total is 10 + 7 = 17MPH.
Thats a huge issue.

1000 years ago the Persians knew it had issues.
If it worked worth a hoot... people would not be doing all the crazy VAWT things they do today.

I said start small for the mechanical issues, and the performance issues.

The dishes may work OK in a Savonis configuration?

The only thing that really matters is that you are having fun.
G-
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zap

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Add some upwind valves
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2011, 12:30:25 PM »
This would be fun to try.
Mount some material, I'm thinking roofing membrane, and make some valves out of the membrane.




The dashed lines are the cut lines.
The wind would see the membrane as a solid surface and the dish's grid work would back the membrane up on the downwind side.  On the upwind side, the membrane would flap open.  Kinda like a heart valve.