Author Topic: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????  (Read 57919 times)

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GoVertical

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2011, 07:08:35 PM »
Greeting, thanks for the concerns. I showed the videos to the local code officer and found I did not need a permit.  I understand what you are saying regarding safety and I am taking every precaution to ensure safe operation. The pellet burner is inside a metal box and the hottest temp on the outside of the box was 120 degrees F.  It was measured with a K thermocouple.  I was able to fabricate the heat reclaimer. I used some re-cycled aluminum baking sheets to add some fins. It is not much to look at, but I am hoping the increased surfaced area will improve performance. The local temp dropped to around zero degrees, so it may take few days before I can get it installed.



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12AX7

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2011, 11:23:13 PM »
Hi..

another quick comment regarding safety.   Those stove pipes are galvanized.  At high temps they may give off some nasty chemicals.  I don't know how/why they are sold for indoor stove use.  The two lowest sections on my wood stove got hot enough to burn off the zinc coating after a few hours.  You may want to add a vent cap to prevent rain/snow from entering.   

TomW

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2011, 07:31:45 AM »
The two lowest sections on my wood stove got hot enough to burn off the zinc coating after a few hours.  You may want to add a vent cap to prevent rain/snow from entering.   

Why I switched to Stainless Stove Pipe. Very expensive but outlast either galvanized [never should be used on wood burner, ever] or painted steel. One piece has been in use for like 12 years now and looks like new.

Was told to never use galvanized on a wood burner when I was a kid and it stuck.

Once I made the switch I figured the cost was a non issue because I know I would have replaced the painted steel at least 3 or 4 times in the time the stainless pipe has been in use and it will go many more years. No matter how hot I get it with wood fires the stainless will never soften and sag from heat like common steel can.

Just from here.

Tom

12AX7

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2011, 11:47:30 AM »
Hi Tom..

I agree,  the only way to go is Stainless.   

They should have eliminated galvanized stove pipe years ago,  I'm surprised that we haven't seen tv commercials,   tort lawyers looking for the "innocent victims" of galvanized poisonings.

I wonder what the symptoms of galvanized/zinc poisoning are?

zap

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2011, 11:57:40 AM »
I wonder what the symptoms of galvanized/zinc poisoning are?

I'm sure the symptoms vary from person to person along with the severity/amount of exposure.
I was sick to my stomach for hours and had the dry heaves for another 2 hours or so... ended up falling asleep curled up in front of the toilet :-[

DamonHD

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2011, 01:13:09 PM »
12AX7: found just such a lawyer offering on the first page of G results for zinc poisoning!  %-P

Rgds

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JW

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2011, 01:55:32 PM »
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=cab80b22aba0b87a80c1a80db7e406e3&topic=144570.msg977187#msg977187

This comment from me is on the first page of this topic. It something worth mentioning more than once.

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GoVertical

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2011, 02:03:08 AM »
Greeting, I purchased a infrared thermometer. At what temp. does galvanized vent pipe start to give harmful vapors?
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zap

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2011, 10:56:03 AM »
Wikipedia says the boiling point of zinc is 1665 °F, 907 °C.  That's for pure zinc... I couldn't find any concrete temperatures for galvanized.

JW

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2011, 11:32:03 AM »
Quote
Greeting, I purchased a infrared thermometer. At what temp. does galvanized vent pipe start to give harmful vapors?

In the hottest sections use steel or stainless, steel will rust and can be coated with an aluminized coating from cotronics.com I think its called duralco 200. http://www.m-r-c.co.il/Media/Uploads/254SPEC.pdf  Stainless will rust also, but not as bad as uncoated steel will.

If your operating the burner and you smell "onions" your being exposed to harmful vapors...

JW

GoVertical

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2011, 02:49:20 AM »
Project update.  I have added the Heat Reclaimer  to the pellet burner exhaust. It is installed inside a insulated plenum on top of the fire box.  The plenum is vented to the shop with insulated cool air feed and hot air return. I performed a 8 hour test of the system when the outside air temp was 9 degrees F. The shop is insulated and after 8 hours of running the system the measured temp inside the shop was 24 degrees Fahrenheit,  and the hot air feed from the plenum measured 52 degrees F.  The system is working, just not very well.  I am considering adding a small boiler system to help transfer more heat into the shop, but I have no experience with boilers. If anyone can provide links to a simple boiler system please let me know. Comments welcome. 
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Madscientist267

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2011, 11:17:32 AM »
Not that I've built anything like this, but one thing that comes to mind is heat transfer between your fins and the duct.

Unless you have good contact between them, your transfer will be minimal, and your efforts mostly undone when the heat can't bridge the gap.

I'm thinking you'd be better off using a water tank with coils of copper tube in your exhaust to reclaim what's rightfully yours.  ;)

Sure, it would add complexity, but the efficiency would go up significantly since you would be capturing so much more heat.

Also, if going this route, send the cold water return in at the highest point (closest to exit) in the exhaust so that you are extracting as much heat from it as possible.

Even if you don't store the heat in the water and just use it as a medium to transfer the heat away from the stack and into the building directly, I'd be willing to bet that the overall efficiency of your system will improve radically.

EDIT -

You wouldn't really be building this end of it as a boiler, just reclaiming the surplus heat that would have otherwise escaped up the chimney. Something along the lines of some old refrigeration plumbing from a condenser unit (the type with the random 'garland' finning on it) in a spiral inside the exhaust would probably work wonders.

Combine this with a small circulation pump that only turns on when the stove is at temperature, and some "boiler style" baseboard heater units (maybe even with some forced air augmentation?) and you've probably got yourself something worthwhile that won't have a tendency to poison you so readily from things like zinc and the like.

FWIW

Steve

« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 11:29:13 AM by Madscientist267 »
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GoVertical

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2011, 07:26:02 PM »
Greetings, Today I purchased all the parts for a closed loop hot water system.  I have no experience with this type of system. I am keeping it as basic as possible. Parts include a expansion tank, pressure relief valve, temp and pressure gauge, air release valve, register inside the shop, and I am using 3/8 soft copper tubing wound in a coil around  the top of the pellet burner to heat the water.  Because the loop is very small I am not adding a pump to start, but if the system needs one I will add it at a later time.  It will be interesting to see how the system performs. I should know more in a few days. Thank you for the advice. 
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Madscientist267

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2011, 09:27:53 PM »
Don't expect much without a circulation pump.

The heat is going to have a tendency to find the highest part of the system and then stay there.

Not very many convection-only based approaches for this kind of thing because it takes some careful planning and attention to serious detail for it to come out as expected. Not saying it can't be done...  ;)

The pump doesn't have to be much of anything, but if you expect to manipulate the heat's location with any precision at all, you'll need it.

More than likely you'll have little to no problem getting it to 'store' itself in the tank. It's extracting it that becomes the difficult part, unless the area you intend to heat is above the tank.

Steve



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12AX7

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2011, 12:46:52 AM »
I'd suggest that you start your experimenting with an "open pressure" system.   A pressure release value a a GREAT thing,  as long as you  know for certain what pressure your tank/system can handle and the set value of the release valve.

If your relief valve "vents" at 30psi but your tank blows up at 25psi...  not a good combination.

Most commercially built outdoor wood boilers run with an "open tank"   no chance for it to do something ugly.

I understand that almost everyone uses a "glyco" mix,  not just for freezing issues but also improve heat transfer?

Remember that both the hot and cold return need to be insulated well!

You'll not be happy until you use a pump!

GoVertical

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2011, 06:57:07 AM »
Greetings, the shop is located about 3 feet above the pellet burner. Is there any way to know how many radiators I should use to dissipate the heat generated into the system? I am searching for a 12 volt circulation pump. Thanks again. 
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Madscientist267

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2011, 11:45:30 AM »
As long as they can collectively dump the BTU load into the space to be heated, you're on the right track.

Ideally, You'd want your return water to be at the temperature of the space being heated right before it re-enters the tank for another round.

Systems usually aren't designed this way, however, because that last radiator will appear to be doing nothing, since it's payload has already been dumped upstream.

For maximum efficiency, you want to move as much energy as possible, and worry less about the actual temperature of the radiators. So in that case, more radiator surface = better.

Unfortunately, a lot of people equate a higher temperature with a system 'doing more', which simply isn't the case. Heat is heat, and if you're moving all of it, then you're maximizing your potential.

There is of course a such thing as overkill, so there is little point in adding more radiator if your stove isn't putting it out. Somebody else on here is likely to give you a more concrete method of determining where the line is for a given input (ie the math), but of course this can be tricky to tell even with the proper formulas; your heat source is DIY and so you must calculate it's output yourself. There's no spec plate to tell you.  ;)

Once you know what your production abilities are, you can get a much closer guess as to what your radiator requirements are. Try to match them as closely as possible (ie BTU input from stove = BTU output from radiators) and your system will be close to ideal.

Then all you will need is a thermostat to control the pump! ;)

Make sense?

Steve
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 11:53:03 AM by Madscientist267 »
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GoVertical

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2011, 01:28:33 PM »
I am currently fabricating the heating coil for the closed looped hot water heat. What is the best orientation for heating coil related to the flame?
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DanG

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2011, 02:22:41 PM »
Your copper coil as shown may do well in the bulk storage tank but should not ever see burner stack gases, the copper will not take the abuse.

Traditional solder joints max working temperature are below 250° F and at working temperatures should not see much above 75PSI so even in the tank and return lines everything should be brazed connections. Where this comes in is if you have liquids flashing to steam etc.  Stainless Steel is the material you need to use - there are many purpose-made SS tubing coil kits out there... google is your friend.

http://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf

JW

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2011, 02:22:57 PM »
Quote
What is the best orientation for heating coil related to the flame?
[ Attachment ]

Theres more to this than just what you are asking.

If the coil has the same orientation as the picture your going to need fins on the outside of the tubing. Even with this, it wont work using natural circulation, it will just make a poping noise and there wont be circulation between the sump and coil.

If you had forced circulation, you would still need the fins for that same orientation, but you could have the flame come thru the side of the coil without fins.

Also if you silver soder on fins you will need schedule 160 (wall thickness)(easy to work with) so you dont penetrate the tubing upon soldering. Bear in mind most tubing from the hardware store is schedule 40 very thin(hard to work with). Even if you choose not to use fins the wall thickness should be atleast schedule 80.

http://www.solar-catalog.com/pumps_circulating.html

Quote
March DC Circulators
Magnetic drive DC hot water circulator pumps can be used for a wide range of applications. Suitable for PV direct power or battery based systems. Motor brush life is a minimum of 20,000 hours. Has a 1/2 inch inlet and outlet and can withstand 500 degrees F and up to 1,000 PSI internal pressure. Extremely reliable.
 
Model 809-BR-12DC
12VDC
1950 rpm
18 watts
Max flow 5.5 GPM
Max head 7.1 Ft   
$253.00
   
 
 


JW

 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 02:36:50 PM by JW »

Madscientist267

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2011, 02:42:41 PM »
Thats not to say that it cant be used in the coolest part of the exhaust...

Copper can tolerate moderate amounts of heat... I wouldn't use it directly in contact with flames/coals/etc, but it can be used as 'final reclamation' for the heat that is getting ready to leave the stack.

Once the primary heat transfer has taken place, the exhaust should be cool enough that it wouldn't have degrading effect. As mentioned, it is still prudent to braze (silver solder) rather than lead based just to be on the safe side.

Also, using multi-lap coils, forcing the exhaust to zig-zag through them will help with transfer.

All of the above is why I mentioned 'garland' style refrigeration tubing for final heat exchange. Use stainless in your flame-to-exchanger to absorb the bulk. The 'garland' is to extract as much of what is left as possible before it leaves the stack.

Hope this made sense.

Steve
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ghurd

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2011, 03:42:25 PM »
Going against the grain.

My friend uses thick wall copper pipe, soldered with regular solder, in the fire box of a coal stove for the home heating season.
It needs replaced every 2 years....
And he did not change it quick enough last time and it failed due to the copper burning through.
It uses no pump.
In the summer he uses the little coal thing ('Overview').
In the winter he uses the copper loop in the coal furnace ('In the stove').
Need that 'magic part', whatever it is, to 'burp' air bubbles, or it will not work without a pump.

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GoVertical

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Re: vertical gravity feed pellet burner????
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2011, 12:14:26 AM »
The forced hot air system was a complete failure. I was only able to achieve a 10 degree difference from the out side temp. I am hoping the closed hot water  loop system will perform better. 
I am currently fabricating the heating coil for the closed looped hot water heat. The really cold weather has gone and now we are having a mini heat wave 30 degrees F.  I was able to install the radiators, pressure tank, and air relief valve.  With any luck I should be able to test the system in a few days.  Thanks for heads up about the copper tubing.








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