Author Topic: Miniature PMA for hydro  (Read 4552 times)

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HAZE

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Miniature PMA for hydro
« on: February 04, 2011, 01:44:26 PM »
Hi everyone.  Great forum you've got here with some very knowledgeable people.  I've got some questions about building a miniature PMA for use with a small hydro turbine.

I've got a turbine prototype built, and have tested it under normal operating conditions.  I attached weighted discs to simulate the load that a PMA rotor would put on it.  First question: how much extra load/drag will be induced with a real PMA vs. just spinning weights on a disc?  Is there additional drag from the magnets' field cutting through the coils?  With a ~50g disc the shaft speed is about 200rpm, and a ~80g disc slows it down to about 160rpm.  (I know the rotational inertia is what's important, but I'm simplifying and using mass.  The radius of both discs is similar, and will be close to the PMA dimensions).

My main questions are about the PMA.  There is a lot of info out there for wind turbines and other large applications, but not much on building very small axial flux PMAs (I've seen  a couple small radial flux).

This hydro system uses very little water, and very little head.  Therefore very little power will be produced, but that's ok because its job is to power a small car (probably will use a pager motor…).  The system needs to be as efficient as possible because the water is limited.  Since the car will be using a DC motor, the 3 phase AC needs to be rectified.  Assume I'm using very efficient Shottkey diodes, I'm still going to have about .9V drop, right?  Therefore I want as much AC voltage out of the PMA as possible so the % power loss is less.

In order to make such a small PMA produce a high voltage, this means a LOT of turns in each coil.  My plan is to use 1/2x1/8” N52 neo magnets, and either an 8 magnet/6 coil config, or a 12 magnet/9coil.  I created a spreadsheet with different configurations.  I think the optimal setup will be 12 magnet rotors (~80g total) and 9 coils.  My calculations show ~450 turns/coil to produce 9V, and ~600 turns/coil to produce 12V.  Since the power draw of the pager motor will be very minimal (<500mA at 9V), I can use pretty fine wire in the stator.  I found the ideal wire gauge (for compact coils with low resistance) to be 30AWG which gives a coil resistance of ~7ohm for 450 turns, and ~10ohm for 600 turns.  Am I on the right track here?

Basically, am I right in trying to maximize the voltage to minimize losses across the rectifier?  Power is not the main concern here, efficiency is.  Will that many turns be too much resistance in the stator?  Am I going to see a major decrease in shaft speed with a real PMA vs a dummy weight?  Thanks in advance!

joestue

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Re: Miniature PMA for hydro
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2011, 05:53:08 PM »
Hi everyone.  Great forum you've got here with some very knowledgeable people.  I've got some questions about building a miniature PMA for use with a small hydro turbine.

I've got a turbine prototype built, and have tested it under normal operating conditions.  I attached weighted discs to simulate the load that a PMA rotor would put on it.  First question: how much extra load/drag will be induced with a real PMA vs. just spinning weights on a disc?  Is there additional drag from the magnets' field cutting through the coils?  With a ~50g disc the shaft speed is about 200rpm, and a ~80g disc slows it down to about 160rpm.  (I know the rotational inertia is what's important, but I'm simplifying and using mass.  The radius of both discs is similar, and will be close to the PMA dimensions).
grams here is useless, i'm assuming that you're measuring torque with a string and a weight right? what's the diameter?
the mass of the rotor don't matter but for windage losses and bearing losses.
Quote
My main questions are about the PMA.  There is a lot of info out there for wind turbines and other large applications, but not much on building very small axial flux PMAs (I've seen  a couple small radial flux).

This hydro system uses very little water, and very little head.  Therefore very little power will be produced, but that's ok because its job is to power a small car (probably will use a pager motor…).  The system needs to be as efficient as possible because the water is limited.  Since the car will be using a DC motor, the 3 phase AC needs to be rectified.  Assume I'm using very efficient Shottkey diodes, I'm still going to have about .9V drop, right?  Therefore I want as much AC voltage out of the PMA as possible so the % power loss is less.
low voltage shottkey diodes are good for 0.3, 0.4 volts.

Quote

In order to make such a small PMA produce a high voltage, this means a LOT of turns in each coil.  My plan is to use 1/2x1/8” N52 neo magnets, and either an 8 magnet/6 coil config, or a 12 magnet/9coil.  I created a spreadsheet with different configurations.  I think the optimal setup will be 12 magnet rotors (~80g total) and 9 coils.  My calculations show ~450 turns/coil to produce 9V, and ~600 turns/coil to produce 12V.  Since the power draw of the pager motor will be very minimal (<500mA at 9V), I can use pretty fine wire in the stator.  I found the ideal wire gauge (for compact coils with low resistance) to be 30AWG which gives a coil resistance of ~7ohm for 450 turns, and ~10ohm for 600 turns.  Am I on the right track here?
no, you're using the mass of the disk to estimate drag, in reality all you did was measure bearing losses.
ignore the number of turns for the moment

Quote
Basically, am I right in trying to maximize the voltage to minimize losses across the rectifier?  Power is not the main concern here, efficiency is.  Will that many turns be too much resistance in the stator?  Am I going to see a major decrease in shaft speed with a real PMA vs a dummy weight?  Thanks in advance!

for right now, assuming you're spinning this at about 300 rpm, estimate that 70% of the load on your turbine is the electrical load on the alternator, the other 30% is lost in the diodes/copper wire.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

HAZE

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Re: Miniature PMA for hydro
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2011, 06:35:18 PM »
Hmm... you're right about my "load" it's not really doing much once the turbine reaches steady state.  I need to put a constant load on the shaft similar to what is expected with the PMA...

But just considering the system, what do I want to shoot for in terms of output voltage?  Something high to minimize loss through rectifier?  Something low to have low resistance coils?  Or just optimize it for the load (DC motor)?

Soon I'm going to start testing different coil/rotor configurations and see how it performs.  Would a 9 coil stator with less winds be the same drag as a 6 coil stator with more winds (to achieve similar voltage?)

How important is the flux return on the back of the rotor plate?  Am I better off adding weight to the design (lower speed) to minimize flux loss, or keep the rotor lightweight (higher speed) and have a weaker field?  This is probably stuff I'll end up needing to test...

Sorry for asking all these questions, I'm a bit overwhelmed by the PMA and all its variables.  Anyone with experience building really small PMAs for low speed applications?

frepdx

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Re: Miniature PMA for hydro
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2011, 09:13:01 PM »
I've got a turbine prototype built, and have tested it under normal operating conditions.  I attached weighted discs to simulate the load that a PMA rotor would put on it.  First question: how much extra load/drag will be induced with a real PMA vs. just spinning weights on a disc?  Is there additional drag from the magnets' field cutting through the coils?  

yes, there will be additional drag. It will be proportional to the power your PMA makes.

For example; If the PMA extracts 1 watt from the turbine, additional drag is going to be 44 foot-pounds/minute. If the PMA turns at 440 rpm, then that equates to .1 foot-pound of torque. That's over and above any friction losses.

"Convert" is a handy tool for this.
http://joshmadison.com/convert-for-windows/

If you only need to make a small amount of power, here's some simple PMA's you can built; http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/radial_air_core_alternator.htm the larger one is good for about 20-50 Watts, according to the author.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 09:21:42 PM by frepdx »

hydrosun

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Re: Miniature PMA for hydro
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2011, 01:06:25 PM »
I can't tell from the info you provide if you have figured out the rpm of the turbine. You have calculated the number of turns of wire to produce the voltage you want. So maybe you have that number. For a hydro you would want the loaded speed of the turbine to be 1/2 the speed of the unloaded turbine to get the most power from the water. If you had the numbers for the gallons per minute of water and the feet of fall you could get a number for the watts output. That would give you some clues in sizes of wire and strengths of magnets needed.  The effective strength of the magnets can be varied by changing the distance from magnet and coils. That will determine the drag of the pma on the turbine..
Chris