Author Topic: transformer with classic  (Read 2231 times)

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cardamon

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transformer with classic
« on: February 13, 2011, 09:52:29 PM »
So now that the classic is available this question arises:  I have a 240 volt 1 KW turbine that is connected to a three phase transformer with 12 volt nominal output.  The turbine actually peaks at about 300 VAC which would about 405 VDC after rectification.  What I have been pondering is what is the most efficient was to get that voltage down to the window of the classic?  Do I have much to gain by rearranging my current transformer scheme now that I have a much more forgiving voltage window? My thinking is it would be best to keep the step down ratio as low as possible for best efficiency, is that a valid theory? Also it seems to me that it is a matter of finding the best compromise of derating the transformer for operation at 1/3 rated frequency by increasing transformer rated voltage vs keeping I^2R losses low.  Any thoughts from any of you transformer gurus?

joestue

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Re: transformer with classic
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2011, 09:13:23 PM »
need some more details.

Do you currently have your 240vac turbine connected to a 3 phase transformer? and if so are there any issues?

FYI: its not as simple as derating a transformer because the frequency is lower, but lets ignore that for now.

The simplest cheapest and most efficient way to cut the turbine voltage in half or in third would be to use an auto transformer, but you lose the voltage isolation of course.
If you only need to cut it in half, this is as simple as finding the mid point of the primary coils on the transfomer you got now. (provided its connected star)

When you turn a traditional transformer into an auto tranformer (remove the secondary or don't use it)
you can put a tap as low as one third on the primary coil and get the entire rated power out. (3 times the current and 1/3rd voltage) before the temperature rise of the entire transformer matches what it was before.

in reality you can't do this because the bottom of the primary can't conduct the heat away fast enough, but if its oil cooled you can.. depending on how its wound.
a 1: 2.5 ratio is more appropriate.
putting the tap at the mid point results in no increased temperature rise, and you can even increase the load 41% before you match the losses of the original transformer.
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back to the mppt converter.
it probably has a rather flat efficiency curve, and keeping the voltage high reduces other losses, so that's the best thing to do.
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derating the transformer

for small to medium sized transformers
raw power density is proportional to the frequency, and the flux density squared.
core losses are proportional to the frequency, and flux density according to the manufacture charts.

End result is that at 1/3rd the frequency, you're going to have a transformer that is about 3 times the size for matched efficiency.
if you don't care about keeping the efficiency as high as it was, and magnetizing current low, you can increase the flux about 10-15% what is typical for 60hz machines, and that will drop it down to about 2.5 times the size.
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so if you're intending to use this 1 KVA three phase transformer you got now, and its meant for 60hz 240vac and your turbine is 20 hz 240 vac,
you're going to need to remove the secondary and fill the entire space full of the same wire the primary is made from
i figure you could probably fit enough wire in there.
maybe drop the gauge one (say its wound with 17 awg, use 18)
and before you did that tap it at appropriate locations then rectify.
because there's no secondary, you can still get about 0.6 to 0.8 Kva out (depending on exactly how much copper you could get in there) before temp rise gets out of hand

-Joe
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Volvo farmer

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Re: transformer with classic
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2011, 09:27:27 PM »
Oooh! Thanks for the update.  Been waiting years for that thing, I think I'll get one!
Less bark, more wag.

cardamon

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Re: transformer with classic
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2011, 07:33:41 PM »
Joe,

Thanks for the detailed response.  As is right now there is no issues with the setup other then not having mppt, and unknown transformer losses.  I am a bit paranoid of this because everyone says transformers with wind turbines are horribly inefficient, but that philosophy seems to be frequently predicated on the assumption that the transformer is not designed properly for the application - no?  The transformer I currently use is made by a transformer manufacturer for SWWP and of course I have no idea how much thought was put into it - I would like to think that it was carefully designed with the specific characteristics of the whisper 200 in mind but who knows.  It is connected Y-D so Its already "geared down" as much as possible by connections.  I suppose it wouldnt be too hard to go in there and remove some turns from the primary however can you elaborate on why that would limit me to half and why it needs to be wye connected to do this or were you meaning something else?

My understanding of using a 60 hz transformer for a 20 hz application is that you would multiply the voltage ratings by 3 and then rate the kva with the actual  applied voltage, so in this case you could use 1/3 of the nameplate kva.  You say three times the size, voltage or kva?  Say you have transformer X, what is the difference between  X, X with three times the kva rating, and X with three times the voltage rating?

Actually as is now the turbine is at 40hz when it cuts in but that was with batts bulking at around 14.6 so at low batt voltage it may cut in around 30

An autotransformer may be a nice move as I dont see any need for isolation.

Regards,

ethan


joestue

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Re: transformer with classic
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2011, 10:20:14 PM »
Quote
The transformer I currently use is made by a transformer manufacturer for SWWP and of course I have no idea how much thought was put into it - I would like to think that it was carefully designed with the specific characteristics of the whisper 200 in mind but who knows.  It is connected Y-D so Its already "geared down" as much as possible by connections

let me get this straight, it currently works, (but no mppt) when connected to the turbine and the delta secondary is rectified and connected to 12v batteries.

Quote
My understanding of using a 60 hz transformer for a 20 hz application is that you would multiply the voltage ratings by 3 and then rate the kva with the actual  applied voltage, so in this case you could use 1/3 of the nameplate kva.  You say three times the size, voltage or kva?  Say you have transformer X, what is the difference between  X, X with three times the kva rating, and X with three times the voltage rating?

basically.  To run a 240vac 60 hz transformer on 20 you'd only be able to apply about 80-90 volts ac. which means the effective name plate KVA would be about 1/3rd.

turbines are variable frequency, but the volts per hz is relativly constant. (highest at start up due to resistive losses in the turbine)
if it starts up and spins and the transformer doesn't get much warmer than it would normally, you're good.

I assumed you need to drop the volts of the turbine by half.
do you need to go lower than that or is 1/2 about right?

can you find the midpoint of the primary windings? or close to it?
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

cardamon

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Re: transformer with classic
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2011, 12:22:51 AM »
Quote
let me get this straight, it currently works, (but no mppt) when connected to the turbine and the delta secondary is rectified and connected to 12v batteries.

Correct

Quote
I assumed you need to drop the volts of the turbine by half.
do you need to go lower than that or is 1/2 about right?

Well its real close.  I get about 400 VDC (or would that is, if rectified without a transformer) The classic 250 doesnt have quite enough output current as I can hit 70 amps.  The classic 200 has the current rating - ohh well maybe not just thought of this - it would now but with the mppt I could see it getting over 74.  So maybe I should plan on going with the 150 which can output 95 amps but has the lowest voltage rating, 150 vdc.  So 1/4 to 1/3 would probably be the safest route.  I think I get what you are saying now:  You were talking about turning my existing transformer into an auto transformer?   At first I thought you were referring to removing some of the primary windings to increase the secdondary voltage up from 12 nominal.  Yeah Im sure I could rework the transformer, its not encapsulated.  Remember, I could just feed leave it as is and feed the classic 12 volts, was just thinking I might be losing a bunch, but really the xformer barely gets warm, although it is located outside and I dont recall doing a temp eval when the ambient temp is balmy.  Maybe I am over-thinking and making this more complicated?

joestue

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Re: transformer with classic
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2011, 08:03:45 AM »
i think you might be a little close to the current limit for those converters.

you're going to see a lot more power from the classic than you're getting with the transformer now.
but this can be mitigated with just a dumpload.. i wouldn't buy two of those things just to handle the peak power.

yep, i'm suggesting if you can get to the windings go ahead and make an auto transformer from it.
like this:
but hopefully a lot easier.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.