Author Topic: trikes and weight savings for higher fuel milage (Read 63692 times)

Bruce S · « **on:** February 24, 2011, 10:20:35 AM »

Adding a post here to go along with the discussions with Taylorp035's great amount of info.

I am still gathering knowledge to build my next 3-wheeler, possibly hybrid fully enclosed.

I truly enjoy riding my 150cc scooter and the fuel savings I get, but arriving at work soaked because the rain gods needed a good laugh is only funny once.

Here's a picture of the 36Vac trike that is my current source of inspiration.

It's power plant's are 7 speed shimano and yes a 36Vac 600w motor. The batteries are rebuilt NiCd packs arranged in 14.4Vdc 20Ahr packs 6 sets total for 40Ahr range.
Comes complete with folding windows a wiper and full set of lights.
The NiCds weighting in at 115lbs which replaced +200lbs of SLAs that only gave us 36Ahr and would die under the deep discharges.

Actually while trying to get the first NiCd pack built and tested. The SLAs were used and were not getting 3/4 of the way before full pedaling was needed.

trikes and weight savings for higher fuel milage

Here's a thrown together pack for proof of concept that they would work like I knew they would.
Ugly to look at but safe and worked better than the SLAs did even with lower rating of 16Ahr instead of the 18Ahr of the SLAs.

This unit is built from fiberglass.

Bruce S

zap · « **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2011, 10:49:21 AM »

I think I found it... Aerorider correct?
http://www.aerorider.com/en/aerorider.html

Bruce S · « **Reply #2 on:** February 24, 2011, 10:55:34 AM »

Quote from: zap on February 24, 2011, 10:49:21 AM

I think I found it... Aerorider correct?
http://www.aerorider.com/en/aerorider.html

Boy you type fast!!
Yep, That is correct. Don't get sticker shock from seeing the prices.
One way cool, back when hydrogen was in the news , they built one of these for that cross EU ride.

Bruce S

zap · « **Reply #3 on:** February 24, 2011, 11:09:50 AM »

Too bad it's not in production

I really love the look of it.

Some good videos on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfL18FoBB5c&feature=related

Bruce S · « **Reply #4 on:** February 24, 2011, 11:42:51 AM »

It is a shame.
I visited the production facility up in Holland , way back while they were still building the one we ordered.
Was very hands-on and family run.
These at the time and quite possibly still, are hand built. One at a time.
I see that they have gone with the 48V Crystalyte hub motors too. That's a bummer, good motors, but.
I like the compactness of the AC motor , even if it was more expensive. I also see the prices have not gone down any.
This unit doeshave a few issues with the derailer getting out of alignment with only a few inches to work with.
We did our own mods to keep things from getting twisted.
Cheers
Bruce S

dbcollen · « **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2011, 01:22:26 PM »

My Trike seats 2, weighs 450 lbs, holds 17 gallons of fuel and has 65 HP Unfortunately it only gets 14.25 MPG.

zap · « **Reply #6 on:** February 24, 2011, 02:05:13 PM »

brrrrrr

Bruce S · « **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2011, 02:20:37 PM »

Quote from: dbcollen on February 24, 2011, 01:22:26 PM

My Trike seats 2, weighs 450 lbs, holds 17 gallons of fuel and has 65 HP Unfortunately it only gets 14.25 MPG.

(Attachment Link)

Yours Flies!
Cool & brrrrrr

taylorp035 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2011, 02:33:35 PM »

I don't know if I would build a hybrid. There is a lot of money required, including the engine, the generator, and it would add at least another 30 lbs to the car.

Your best money spent I bet would be on some low rolling resistance tires. I bet that car weighs 200 lbs, + you, so your energy ratio is probably at 25% air drag and 75% rolling resistance at the lower speeds.

I was looking into the crystal lite motors. I actually did some math and found the efficiency curves using their data. It sure beats messing with a chain or timing belt.

dbcollen · « **Reply #9 on:** February 24, 2011, 03:02:34 PM »

This one got even worse mileage, but it flies from water, snow or airports. Unfortunately someone broke into my hangar and destroyed it last week.

Bruce S · « **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2011, 04:56:39 PM »

Quote from: taylorp035 on February 24, 2011, 02:33:35 PM

I don't know if I would build a hybrid. There is a lot of money required, including the engine, the generator, and it would add at least another 30 lbs to the car.

Your best money spent I bet would be on some low rolling resistance tires. I bet that car weighs 200 lbs, + you, so your energy ratio is probably at 25% air drag and 75% rolling resistance at the lower speeds.

I was looking into the crystal lite motors. I actually did some math and found the efficiency curves using their data. It sure beats messing with a chain or timing belt.

They have been around for a while too.
The golden motors people have as well, just that GM had some quality issues ( I think) a few years back.

Both sure beats the loss due to chain/belt.

I am hoping Commanda sees this.
She has tons of Knowledge using LiPos on her current 2-wheeler and VAN if I remember correctly. She's using the ThunderSky yellow tops for the VAN.

This will be a commuter trike going 15Miles one way that has to be able to withstand normal traffic and sneaky potholes.
Every time this is out on the road we get stares, so I also have a light stick for it.
Those black spots on both sides are the NACA slits too, they do work, but the ability to open the side windows is better.
The top also pops off.

Cheers
Bruce S

Bruce S · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2011, 05:00:45 PM »

Quote from: dbcollen on February 24, 2011, 03:02:34 PM

This one got even worse mileage, but it flies from water, snow or airports. Unfortunately someone broke into my hangar and destroyed it last week.

Sorry to read that.
I think I could just get it to land in our parking lot too.
I've flown the UL ones before, which was a HOOT!! every time I got the chance.
These two look to be a bit bigger than an Ultra-Light.

Cheers;
Bruce S

taylorp035 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 24, 2011, 05:04:24 PM »

Acording to my excel calculations, I assumed 15 miles and a power consumption of 4 times higher than my car. The total energy consumption would be 457 KJ = 127 Wh's, or about a 4s5p A123 pack.

dnix71 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 24, 2011, 06:35:34 PM »

Bruce I was net surfing for NiCads yesterday. There are some eBay sellers with 4.5 and 5 ah D-cell nicads for a price that is only about 2x an Pb sla. The neat thing about standard sized cells like that is you can go to RadioShack or the like and buy snap in battery holders so you do not need to solder. 4 D's in a plastic holder is ~5 volts. 6 of those is 30v =/- which is the upper limit for 24v bikes.

http://cgi.ebay.com/PCB-Battery-Box-Holder-4-X-D-cells-nicad-alkaline-/360303936288?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item53e3c9c320 battery holder with 1/4" male disconnects

http://cgi.ebay.com/10-Size-D-NICAD-4500mah-Rechargeable-Batteries-8501-/390289863562?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adf16b38a even with shipping this is very close to an sla in price. These are heavy, though. I had a pair of 5000mah D nicads from Radio Shack many years ago and they felt like I was holding a solid steel can.

taylorp035 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 24, 2011, 07:07:55 PM »

You can buy 9ah C nimh cells on ebay that are 1/2 the price of lead batteries. I was finding 5Wh/ $1. Pb is about 10, but you can't discharge them as far and they are heavier. Of course, charging large packs of nimh may be trickier than charging nicds....

dnix71 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 24, 2011, 08:57:52 PM »

TaylorP035 where did you see one for that price? This one from China direct is $95 for 12v 9 ah.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1-NiMH-12V-9Ah-rechargeable-battery-pack-emergency-exit-/220626700167?pt=US_Batteries&hash=item335e604787 That's actually not a bad price, but still 3 times what I could get a comparable Pb sla for here locally in The US.

taylorp035 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 24, 2011, 09:18:16 PM »

Quote

You can buy 9ah C nimh cells on ebay that are 1/2 the price of lead batteries. I was finding 5Wh/ $1. Pb is about 10, but you can't discharge them as far and they are heavier. Of course, charging large packs of nimh may be trickier than charging nicds....

I'm sorry, that should be 2x the price of lead batteries, not 1/2.

I search for "9000 mah C nimh" in ebay:

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m570&_nkw=9000+mah+c+nimh

I found some cells for 4.30 Watt hours per dollar. I am sure there are some better deals than that.

I saw 4 cells for $1, but I'm not sure that I would buy from that guy. You get what you pay for may apply.

joestue · « **Reply #17 on:** February 24, 2011, 10:19:00 PM »

have you personally bought these cells and tested them?

getting 9 amp hours into a C cell battery would be harder than getting 19 amp hours from a D cell battery.
the highest i've seen for d cells are 11 amp hours.

taylorp035 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 25, 2011, 12:09:23 AM »

No I haven't. They are probably a bunch of " " inside of them (marshmellow most likely), but it seems like a lot of people buy them with positive reviews. I would look at the ebay seller's comments before you buy anything.

I don't see why you can't put 9ah into a C cell? AA's can hold 3 ah now, so it would be pretty close.

Simen · « **Reply #19 on:** February 25, 2011, 03:30:44 AM »

I am one of the 'GoldenMotor people',

using a 36V, 750W standard GM rear hub motor, with GM's 36V, 16Ah LiFePo battery.

Without pedalling, i get around 35-40km out out of one charge, with top speed of 42km/h...

Bruce S · « **Reply #20 on:** February 25, 2011, 10:28:52 AM »

Simen;
Thanks for letting me know that.
As I continue to hone just what I'm going to do, it is very helpful to know where the quality is too.
Luckily I think I will have a donor unit.
Our e-scooter is a nice unit. 48Vdc 550w with purpose built 14.4Vdc dual 16Ahr NiCd system (1 set in battery box , 2nd set tucked in plastic wells under seat) connected using 10ga multi-stranded wire.
This unit would haul two people up a 5degree incline without any problem and would get our daughter to the botanical gardens (volunteer work) and back with enough umph to stop off for a Slurpee. Due to Missouri laws it is electronically limited to 25mph, but that's not a problem for me.

I have a few numbers to crunch for the motor size a battery bank size to figure out before I settle on one.
My current concern is to keep the weight down while keeping it safe, and me dry. My interest in what Taylorp035 is doing with carbon fiber is for both.

Cheers;
Bruce S

dnix71 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 25, 2011, 05:34:34 PM »

joestue I would even avoid the 5 ah D cells in favor of 4.5 ah. I had some 5 ah nicads a long time ago and they were fragile.

9 ah in a C-cell is insane.

joestue · « **Reply #22 on:** February 25, 2011, 06:53:29 PM »

Quote from: dnix71 on February 25, 2011, 05:34:34 PM

9 ah in a C-cell is insane.

yep.

LiFePOH continues to get more interesting, especially as the dollar drops in purchasing power.

if only i needed a 2KW stack right now.

bought 2Kw worth of solar cells last week for a good price.

anyway, wasn't this thread on batteries?
the other day there was the words "nearly unlimited budget"
can you buy some nickel hydrogen batteries from nasa?

edit: wrong thread, looks like Bruce started this one

taylorp035 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 26, 2011, 12:17:36 PM »

Here are some carbon fiber shots of the car:

Weight is about 40 lbs of just carbon fiber. You could do even better than we did with the same amount of weight; aka make the car bigger and more comfortable.

The main savings are probably in the frame. All of the load is transmitted through the rails, not the shell.

Of course, an everyday vehicle would need bit more visibility than this.

dnix71 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 27, 2011, 09:31:02 AM »

How do you make the shell of carbon fiber? I thought it was baked after forming it.

taylorp035 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 27, 2011, 12:12:54 PM »

Quote

How do you make the shell of carbon fiber? I thought it was baked after forming it.

Yes and no. You can make carbon fiber several different ways. If you have the equipment, the easiest is to buy carbon fiber fabric with the glue already in it. Then you lay it up and put it in an oven. An hour later, you have a finished product.
The way we do it is use two part epoxy on dry fabric. It is more difficult to do it this way, but is by far the cheapest and most flexible. Complete dry times range from 24 hrs to 4 days. The pot life of the glue ranges from 20 min to 2 hours from our experience. Drying time is heavily dependent on the temperature of the room.

We used male molds for all of our stuff, usually made of pink foam.

Here is a picture of our mold. Mostly pink foam, glue, and drywall compound.

Before you try this, you should check that your compounds will not eat the foam. This has caused use many headaches.

Here is from before the frame was carbon fibered.

Bruce S · « **Reply #26 on:** February 28, 2011, 11:07:06 AM »

Quote from: joestue on February 25, 2011, 06:53:29 PM

edit: wrong thread, looks like Bruce started this one

Joe, no worries

we kinda hijacked Mad's post about his trike so I figured it would be a good idea to get some of that off
and over in a new thread.

Chhers
Bruce S

taylorp035 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 06, 2011, 01:18:14 PM »

If it helps at all, I spent a good amount of time finding the efficiency between a 3.5 hp Briggs engine and a treadmill motor if you wanted a series hybrid. At 1000 watts output, the whole set up was 11% efficient or about 4017 Wh's per gallon. My supermileage car would use 3.47 wh's per mile assuming 100% drive motor efficiency, so about 1157 mpg. Divide you car by about 4 or about 290 mpg.

taylorp035 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 16, 2011, 08:17:17 PM »

I found an awesome diagram showing energy in a normal vehicle that everyone can understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_flows_in_car.svg

REdiculous · « **Reply #29 on:** April 16, 2011, 10:45:31 PM »

I like the look of that shell but it reminds me of a shoe. Feel comfortable sharing how much the shell cost to make, by chance?

taylorp035 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 16, 2011, 11:13:11 PM »

Well, the carbon fiber is ~$30 a yard at 60" wide I think. Then the 2 part epoxy is about $60 a gallon. Most of the car is 5 layers thick.

Best estimates come out to about $1000-$1500 or so. You could do it cheaper if you made some areas less thick and made less mistakes. Usually we put too much glue on any one place, so that gets expensive.

If and when the next car is built, the outside will be only 2 layers thick in most places. Also, we hope to remove all of the aluminum, including the front frame and engine mounts. The only metal will be the steering knuckles, the drum brakes, and the rear hub. Maybe the axles too, but that's still up for discussion. Hopefully we can find or make some tubeless carbon fiber 20" rims.

The over all cost would be in the $2,000-$3000 range if you wanted to do this yourself with less expensive parts. I bet you could get 1000 mpg for $2,000 and make it a daily driver. Certain things will be pointless to spend $xxx on if you gain 5 mpg or even 100 mpg.

In the last 2 years, we have spent ~$11k, which includes a lot of other things, like trip expenses and some shop tools. About $2k went into the EFI engine. We have well over $1000 in rims, tires, hubs, and brakes ON THE CAR. Obviously this would be lower with disc brakes, normal bike tires, and steel rims.

One issue is that some parts may wear out before you use 1 gallon of gas, like the starter pinion, tires, and your body. The ride is pretty rough, but you could make a flexible frame. Top speed would be what ever you feel like, because your drag forces are so low. Top speed would be dictated by the tires, the flimsy body, your nerve to go that fast on 3 wheels, and the time it takes for the clutch to fully engage. I bet 100 mph could be achieved on our 3.5 hp brigs engine. But it would take a long straight to do so. Also, you would have to be confident that the brakes will work....

wdyasq · « **Reply #31 on:** April 17, 2011, 08:48:01 AM »

Well,

As this thread has seen enough drift, I'll throw in my gust of sideways wind ....

Years ago I considered a 'Velomobile' for the base of a high mileage vehicle. The material I was going to use to build it was wood.

I have built many cold molded 12-14' long vacuum laminated boats weighing less than 65 pounds using 3 X 1/16 veneer of wood. These included solid wood keels, inner ad outer gunnels, and seats that had ice-box type storage. I'm sure a shell structure similar to a velomobile would have similar weight or less not including mechanicals.

Wood is relatively easy to work with and has little or no fatigue problems. Epoxy is still $60 a gallon but you use less and wood is probably cheaper than CF.

Ron

taylorp035 · « **Reply #32 on:** April 17, 2011, 10:44:48 AM »

Wood isn't a bad choice. A few years ago, our team made a wood car and got ~500 mpg. Using an OHV 50cc honda engine (or batteries for easier operation), the car would weigh less than 150 lbs with all of the creature comforts you want. The top of the car was a sheet of plexiglass folded over.

News:

Author Topic: trikes and weight savings for higher fuel milage (Read 63692 times)