Author Topic: Low rpm generator for small water wheel  (Read 64946 times)

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caldoverde

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Re: Low rpm generator for small water wheel
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2011, 03:52:07 PM »
2 meters of level chute should stop most rocks?

Do you mean at the intake end? That's possible. There's a relatively level section where I could just about fit 2m of intake without compromising the irrigation or water supplies. See photo - the stream travels in the channel behind the stone staircase you can see.



If it's level though, the stream will just cover it in gravel. It carries a fairly constant load and dumps it wherever it has a chance to. Perhaps something like a tank installed at a drop off, with an angled screen supported by steels bars over the top of it and the pipe coming out at the bottom of the tank? (No need to leave settling space for fine dirt as it's a wheel we're talking about, not a turbine.) That way no gravel would settle and any big rocks would go straight over the top along with the rest of the flood?

Quote
"and just take the intake further up the stream for more head" would be a good idea.
Might find it can operate one of those reworked car alternators you have.

 ::) Ach you're funny. I'll find a use for the thing somewhere - better had given what it cost me - but I don't think it'll be anywhere near the water wheel ...

ghurd

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Re: Low rpm generator for small water wheel
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2011, 04:44:28 PM »
I should not do this now, because I am very busy staring at my phone today.   :(

Looks like this would make 3X the power?
It is still above the visible irrigation supply or walkway.
G-

www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

caldoverde

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Re: Low rpm generator for small water wheel
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2011, 06:37:19 PM »
That was the original idea for a turbine. The tables I looked at though reckoned only about 200W. However that bottom terrace that your arrow to the wheel is pointing to and the one the other side of the stream at the same level both get water from just below the wheel so we'd have to run irrigation lines from the top of the penstock intake instead. More expense, more pipes to get clogged, etc, etc.

There's also a lot of water-dependent plants growing at the side of the stream below the wheel that would cease to do well if we moved the wheel further down.

I know we would get more power with that additional head, but it's all about a good compromise. We don't actually need bucketloads of power, and I'd far rather have the wheel where it is than end up having to continually dump power because we're generating more than we need. A small gain in efficiency in the delivery and an ECM or axial flux generator should see us right I hope. This discussion has been an enormous help!

hydrosun

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Re: Low rpm generator for small water wheel
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2011, 12:57:11 AM »
I sent a reply this morning with all the calculations and I see tonight that it didn't go through. So I'll do it again.
Using your numbers of 15 meters of pipe to gain 7 m head and using 2 to 5 l/sec.  My charts are all in US measurements so I'm translating approximations into metric.
A 120mm pipe will lose almost no head with 5l/sec for 15 meters. A 12.8mm nozzle will let out 1.3l/sec, a 19mm nozzle will let out just about 3.3l/sec. A 16mm will let out about 2.3l/sec  Combinations of these nozzles will cover a range of flows.  A way to make the change automatic is to tee at slightly  different levels at the top into separate 90mm pipes to each nozzle. When the stream flow changes the number of pipes filled will change. For instance if the stream flow is 2 l/sec the 16 mm nozzle will let out all the water and the second pipe will be empty. when the flow is 5l/sec then both pipes will be filled to the top. there should be a link to a system in Scotland that used that technique. Otherwise you can manually open valves at the bottom to choose which valves are flowing to keep the pipe full to the top. Water in has to match water out. A 120mm diameter turgo could handle these range of flows and spin at 1300 rpm at load at this head. You could get turgo spoons at H-hydro.com
The power produced would be 60 watts with 2l/sec at 7m head. 5l/sec would produce 150 watts with a 50% efficient setup.  I think your calculation of the output of your present setup was a bit optimistic.  Hydro is always about head times flow divided by efficiency. The only thing that changes is loss of head in pipes or flumes and losses in turbines and losses in matching alternator load.  So your present setup had 3 m head and up to 5l/sec would produce max 70 watts if you only lose 50% in the entire setup. 
So it depends on how much  power is needed. But it is 24 hours a day.
Chris



caldoverde

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Re: Low rpm generator for small water wheel
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2011, 07:14:38 AM »
Thanks Chris. Hmmm ... my aim is just to increase the efficiency of the wheel, not to replace it with a turbine.

Thanks for explaining the pipes. I see the elegance of the solution, but I also see its inflexibility. It's one of the things that put me off a turbine. If one or both pipes need to be constantly full to maintain its operation, you're going to be in a situation a lot of the time where you're only using the smallest nozzle pipe because there's not enough to fill the second. Hence all that potential power is wasted, and although the efficiency within the system itself is high and remains constant, the efficiency of the overall set-up - ie. power inherent in the potentially usable water flow / actual power generation - is low. Efficiency all depends on where you draw the line around your 'system' ...

OK. I gave some of the practical reasons for my choice of the wheel, but some are a matter of foundational principle.

There is this general incongruence between human engineering and nature. The natural world comprises interdependent open systems which are in a continual state of dynamic change, and we use them by constraining them to work in closed systems within narrow parameters in an inflexible way. This is fine where there's overabundance of primary system input, eg. where there's gallons of water, billions of barrels of oil, thousands of square miles of fertile forest soils to clear to grow food in, and billions of fish in the sea, but we're now at the point where that overabundance no longer exists. We've used it all up by exploiting it in incredibly wasteful ways (overall efficiency <1%).

We need to adapt. We need to adapt both our thinking and our engineering to work with nature, not against it.  This means studying how natural systems work and imitating them, because natural systems are self-maintaining and have a robust flexibility that can deal with an enormous amount of perturbation without compromising overall system integrity or efficiency. Our systems are the opposite: they're fragile, inflexible, and enormously vulnerable - remove that word 'unlimited' from the primary energy input, and the whole house of cards collapses. So to me, because our water supply is marginal, this means engineering a generating system that's open and can accommodate continual variability, so what we lose in the specific efficiency of a closed system, we gain overall.

When I was thinking about using a turbine here, these considerations were continually nagging away at me. I knew there had to be a more open, flexible, simple, elegant and efficient way to do it. So when an engineer friend and neighbour started talking to me about his experience with turbines and the thought process that went into the wheel-based system he was designing, I knew he was on the same track. When he completed it and I saw it in operation, it was one of those Aha!! moments. His wheel works beautifully.

Because it's the same size as mine with similar gearing, I can use his rpm and power output to gauge what I can reasonably expect from mine. This is why I've been playing around with various equations to come up with something that accurately reflects the behaviour and output of these wheels, rather than use the conventional head x flow / efficiency, because that doesn't work with the engineer's wheel. His power output is greater than that calculation predicts. I'm presuming this is because the weight of water in the buckets has something to do with it.

So to me, because what we have is essentially an open system - although the chute only has 3m of head, the water entering it has much more even allowing for substantial friction losses, and there's no break in flow - the calculations for wind turbines, which are acknowledged as open systems in the maths, also have relevance. Taking the actual speed of the bulk of water hitting the wheel means that head, flow and friction have already been accounted for since they're implicit in the speed of the water, but I think I need to more accurately model the volume rather than taking the cube of the linear velocity.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 07:34:48 AM by caldoverde »

hydrosun

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Re: Low rpm generator for small water wheel
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2011, 03:07:50 PM »
I agree that there are more aspects to a hydro than just efficiency. There is great value in robustness and beauty.  If you get enough power from your setup for your needs then it is the way to go. If you have to run a fossil fueled generator to make the power that isn't provided by the hydro then it might not be the best outcome.
Your turbine is similar to the hurdy- gurdy turbines that were used in California that Pelton modified to get higher efficiency by making curved buckets. That forced the water to change direction to transfer more of the power in the water to the rotation of the turbine. That made the turbine more efficient and produce more power.  Many engineers have worked on making water turbines more efficient than the original water wheels. Don Harris made many incremental changes to gain higher and higher efficiency with his units. I tried for many years of experiments to home make something as efficient and finally realized it was worth paying for manufactured unit because the higher efficiency meant I could get power with a lower flow and have a much longer power producing season.
I'm wondering if you have accurately measured the water flow when you get more power out of the turbine than would be predicted by calculation.  Or if the head measurement includes the height where the water is dumped out of the buckets.
The setup of automatic changing nozzles does have a penalty of when the water flow is in between both pipes being full. That is why in most systems multiple  nozzles are changed manually to select the size and number that best match the available flow.   In my own system I am testing pressure switches and electrical valves to automatically open nozzles as needed to match flow.  It keeps the pipe close to full all the time, if the flow slows a nozzle is shut off, the pipe refills and the nozzle is turned on again. I have  a lot more head than your system so it makes sense in my case. I manually change valves or nozzle sizes when the flow changes are greater than one nozzle output.  Using several smaller nozzles keep the steps between small. Ideally would be to have a spear valve to have a continuous range of flows but unfortunately they are too expensive for small hydro.  I'm working to wring the highest efficiency out of the system because there is a limited amount of water.
 On the use of power I am also working to wring the most out of a limited amount to cook our food, and heat our house.  By using a heat pump we can heat our house and still have enough for hot water and this computer without fossil fuels or even the wood stove. So even if this involves increasing complexity it doesn't pollute with a gas generator, gas stove, gas water heater, or even the carbon neutral wood stove.
The calculation of efficiency has to widen to include growing our own food so it doesn't have to be transported, stored and kept cold. Stored in cold cellar or canned with solar or hydro in efficient cookers. An underground house that limits the amount of heating needed to keep comfortable. Solar hot water with hydro electric elements and wood stove to heat, cook and heat water when the hydro slows in the winter.  So many interlocking systems to live comfortably without fossil fuels after setup.
I've also lived in a tent without heat for a year. So I know things could be much simpler.  And I'm sure we are all headed toward a simpler future without as many comforts when we are forced to live on only what nature provides with damaged ecosystem.
In the meantime I try to help people tap into smaller sources of energy like your stream.
Chris

caldoverde

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Re: Low rpm generator for small water wheel
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2011, 09:10:59 PM »
Hey Chris - sounds like we're on much the same track. Doing the same sort of thing, but only a year into it so a lot in transition and conversion. And living in a tent until that's done. I do appreciate your help enormously. It's just that my gut tells me the wheel is the right choice for us so I intend to persevere with it. My gut's not infallible, but it's right much more often than my head is. Perhaps this will all turn out to be some grand folly, who knows, but until it does, that's the way I'm headed :)

As I understand it, the difference between our wheel and the hurdy gurdy is that the hurdy gurdy was an open wheel with paddles but no buckets, so no benefit from the weight of water in the buckets.

What I have been thinking about for the chute is to take it up the additional 4m, run the water down in a plastic gutter to cut friction losses, and have an adjustable stage at the end that allows us to keep the angle the water hits the wheel as close to 90° as possible.




Harold in CR

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Re: Low rpm generator for small water wheel
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2011, 07:58:57 AM »

 In the photos of the wheel running, I noticed a LOT of water splashing and not doing any work.

 My water system, I have been told, just does not have any hope of making over40 watts.  ::) ::) ::)

 I have been studying the Ossberger Turbine. I am starting to build one, to try to match my small stream output. They took designs from several turbines and combined them.

 I'm thinking, they use an adjustable flap, inside the housing, to "squeeze" the water into the blades, in effect, getting every oz of water to do work.

 Maybe you could look through their site, and adapt some of their ideas, to mod your system, without really changing the asthetics look very much. ??  I just hate to see water wasted, especially when we are so close to having enough for our power needs.

 Just a thought. Good luck with your system.    Harold

caldoverde

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Re: Low rpm generator for small water wheel
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2011, 04:41:43 PM »
Thanks Harold. Interesting. I was thinking this morning that some sort of 'squeeze' at the end of the chute might help.