Utility Pole cost

[Wisdom Bear]

Anybody here tried a "telephone pole" instead of a tower?
Hows cost diff. and how did it work for you?

[DanG]

A new fifty foot pole will weigh between 1500 and 2200 pounds and cost $500 to 850USD with delivery extra.

To set that pole there would have to be an 18 or 24-inch augured hole eight to ten feet deep. Trenching and cable lift might be possible but is a weaker solution over time from the ground disturbance.

There are regional specialized contractors who do nothing but set utility line poles & have stock to choose from and the tools to set them.

Supposing now you have a 42' pole set in your choice of positions - then what?

[taylorp035]

Supposing now you have a 42' pole set in your choice of positions - then what?

Good point.  Getting the windmill on top of the pole and doing maintenance would be the hard part, unless you had access to a really tall lift year round.

[Wisdom Bear]

Hmmmm..... I wonder?  Just for a thought here, What if you put spikes in the side of the pole? These you would climb to "service" the gen. These cost about $ 1.00 @ most supply houses.
NO need for a high lift!

Why do U guys try to make it so hard?

The pole cost very little to a tower. Whats the diff.?

You could say that U need the same high lift for the tower?

Help me. I just don't get your thinking here.

[SnowGhost]

Hmmmm..... I wonder?  Just for a thought here, What if you put spikes in the side of the pole? These you would climb to "service" the gen. These cost about $ 1.00 @ most supply houses.
NO need for a high lift!

Why do U guys try to make it so hard?

The pole cost very little to a tower. Whats the diff.?

You could say that U need the same high lift for the tower?

Help me. I just don't get your thinking here.

A lot of the guys would much rather not climb 50' into the air and dangle about trying to squirt oil in the right spot, or tighten a bolt or 10 up there.  You can only fall 6 feet if your standing on the ground, but a fall from 50' will probably kill you.

[ChrisOlson]

Why do U guys try to make it so hard?

Because most of us have BTDT.  You have to get a 100+ lb turbine up that pole somehow, and if you're going to do it without a crane that means doing it in pieces and assembling and adjusting it on the tower stub.

Every try lifting a 100 lb turbine head with no rotor or tail on it over your head to slip it over a 16" long yaw shaft, while hanging off the side of a pole balancing on little spikes?  By the time you get that turbine head up there on the end of a rope, believe me, you'll be having second thoughts about the whole deal.
--
Chris

[Tritium]

I remember a member of this site that had a track installed on the side of a wooden pole to raise his turbine to the top. Can't find the story though. It was several years back.

Thurmond

[TomW]

For what it is worth....

I have a 65 foot 4 leg tower with built in ladder and a platform at the top.

Even working on that is not my idea of fun. Much prefer the 2 I can tilt down to work on.

Just from here.

Just turned 60 so this may not apply if you are young and dumb yet

Tom

[Wisdom Bear]

OK
Now I am get some communication going on!
GREAT!

No I have not stood on the side of a 50 / 60 foot pole and tried to get a 100 lbs. + turbine head. Have You?
Is it that hard? What if one of you brains plan a "Pole attached" lift?
 Remember I am just a Newbie. I know nothing.

I'm NOT impressed with you guys thinking.
Think OUT of the BOX.
Less make this work!

You want me to tell you how to make a pole attached "LIFT"?

Call me.
404-227-3038

I am issuing a challenge "Brains".

It can be done, and it can be done without being as hard as you make it!

It doesn't have to cost $ 2,500 to have a tower to support a 17' WINDMILL.

Again, I'm not trying to be a smartass, just think out of the box.

[zap]

I remember a member of this site that had a track installed on the side of a wooden pole to raise his turbine to the top. Can't find the story though. It was several years back.

Thurmond

pepa did something like that:
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,128061.0.html

I believe a few still on the board have seen it in action?

EDIT:

Again, I'm not trying to be a smartass, just think out of the box.

Personally... I think you are being a bit of a "smartass".  Your referral to members here as "Brains" seems rather sarcastic and your statement "I'm NOT impressed with you guys thinking." seems down right rude to me.
If you're not that impressed then go find a forum about Barbie dolls and ask them about utility poles.

[Wisdom Bear]

I really want to know?
What part of this did you think was going to be easy?


You seem to want to take the easy way OUT.
I want off the GRID and am willing to work for it. ARE YOU?

[TomW]

Wisdom Bear;

You seem to be itching for some kind of fight.

I have placed you in the "Read Only" club for a week.

You cannot post to the forum for one week.

This will give you time to read and think about how it is easier to be nice and get help than to be insulting and combative.

Or not.

This action will automatically expire in 7 days. Use it wisely.

Tom

[hayfarmer]

I get my telephone poles for free,just ask a contract crew replacing a pole line and ask,they say when we get back to work site in am and old poles are gone it saves them

a ton of bucks,got about 80 of them in many trips for my pole barn and gave many to other farmers,some were only a few years old,and some belonged to power company.

(whoops)  ,And as far as the help from the good people on fieldlines ,I  am very thankful for the experience and guidance they offered for FREE and put up with the constant

reoccurring questions with out belittling the new guy in town,I wonder how many accidents and maybe life's they have saved warning people of impending destruction with

attempted flawed designs.I am no engineer and doing the calculations are better off in their hands, some  times I see offered advise corrected by others and argued over until

      a mutual conclusion is found .(FREE SECOND OPINION)  cant beat it. just my .02

hayfarmer

[bj]

  As always, many thanks Tom.

[ghurd]

You have to know what is in the box before getting out of it.

A bit in the reality box.
Lets say you get a 17' 50/60 up on a phone pole.

I was going to put up a non furling 4' turbine on a treated 16' 4x4, sunk down 3.5'.
Someone smarter than me ran some ball park napkin numbers.
41MPH would snap the 4x4, or be dangerously close.

Considering a 17' is over 18X bigger than a 4',
and a 14" dia phone pole is only 12.6x more cross sectional are than a 4x4,
and a 17' is not going to do a lot of good 13.5' up in the air,
and a 17' up in the air 50' is going to have a lot more torque than a 4' up in the air 13.5',
I'd say climbing a 50' pole with >100 is not the issue I would be worried about,
even if I was be drunk enough to climb up the thing .

I used the $3 spikes for my tree stand because I figured they would not get stolen like real steps, and they bent under my 150 pound weight.
G-

[Southbuck]

A few guy wires would fix that issue G

[ChrisOlson]

No I have not stood on the side of a 50 / 60 foot pole and tried to get a 100 lbs. + turbine head. Have You?

Actually, yes.  With a jib crane on the tower and a work platform at the top.  And you need a helper on the ground unless you want to climb and descend the tower 35 times to put a wind turbine on it.

It's a very dangerous procedure to say the least.  I got rid of that tower and put in a tilting one.

And the tower I had was not a phone pole - it was a real turbine tower.
--
Chris

[Volvo farmer]

Wisdom Bear;

I have placed you in the "Read Only" club for a week.

After a hard day at work, I have to admit I got a little chuckle out of this.  
Thank you, mister moderator. Job well done  

[freejuice]

Wisdom Bear,
 I have put a 17 footer together by myself...its really something you dont want to do strapped to a pole like a lineman, Each section is either heavy or awkward as hell. Try assembling the blades on the ground then tell me how it goes 50 feet up? Heck, how would you even set the tail on the stub?


Heed what these folks are telling you, The rotors alone would smash you to pieces if they slapped together on any body part.
Now if you want to hang off the ground stuck to a wooden pole, you would better off just having someone nailing you there and changing your name to Christ.  Then let the crows and buzzards peck out a tune on your noggin while you dangle up there bleeding out, because I'll guarantee you won't fall... even if those rotors grab your pinkie finger.

Just build that generator first and assemble all 300 odd lbs of it, you will see what all these warnings are about

A 17 footer can develop a lot of thrust when the wind is howling,  without guying it, I would almost bet it would snap that pole somewhere along the length at the weakest point, especially in some contrary grain area.

[ChrisOlson]

 Then let the crows and buzzards peck out a tune on your noggin while you dangle up there bleeding out, because I'll guarantee you won't fall... even if those rotors grab your pinkie finger.

Gavin, if that rotor grabbed your finger like that would your finger be like solid state, or analog?

LOL!
--
Chris

[zap]

I would think it would be digital and referred to as "site mash"?

[birdhouse]

wisdom bear-
i'm not sure if you are still reading due to your penalty.

if you are.  this site is more about reading, learning and educating yourself before posting like crazy. 

i still, read far more than i post.  i learn all the time, and this allows me to ask intelligent questions. (or at least i think so).  i still get nervous most times i post asking for help.  i'm worried i didn't include all the details, or pose the questions correctly. 

this site is, in my opinion, the most knowledgeable site for RE out there.  there are retired, and active mechanical, structural, electrical, engineers, fabricators, and riggers, and generally brilliant folks that have a wealth of information that they supply you with for FREE.  that says a lot.  an individual could save a ton of money/time/effort just from the words here. 

i get stoked anyone takes the time to read about my piddly system, understand how it operates, and gives FREE advice based on their own experiences with similar components/devices. 

as far as your telephone pole idea.  yea, it's doable, with three guy lines, and a way to get the pole upright.  then you have to worry about how these lines are attached.  through bolts?  that will weaken and promote rot.  then getting the turbine on top.  temp mini masts are used for this, but need to be perfectly designed and engineered.  climbing isn't bad if you like it.  i've purposefully gone 2,000 ft off deck on a route and loved every minute of it, though i'm not real keen on lifting 100lb plus pieces of a mill while roped up!

read up on towers.  you'll begin to understand why most folks gave negative responses to putting a 17' turbine on top of a telephone pole.  a 17 footer is capable of massive thrust on the tower, a respectable amount of power, and some crazy forces on a tower during furling.  not to mention the thing is HEAVY!  all of these things, and others, need to be considered seriously, otherwise, you're just creating a dangerous situation.

adam

adam

[TrackerJack]

What if you were to set two poles apart the width of a single pole and then put a third pole between them with a type of bushing and pin to hold the third pole, along with your turbin, far enough up that you it would be counter balanced to easly let swing down to maintain, install, etc... and then pulled back up into the air, at what point you would secure the third pole by sliding a bushing, pin, through all three at the bottom of the middle or third pole.  Wow now I'm confused.

[lohearth]

Some where there is a pic of someone doing this. I think they used a 2" shaft at about 4' and the pole was 20-25' iirc.

[lohearth]

Found one story easy enoughhttp://www.fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,139351.html

[freejuice]

Chris,
 I guess it would be an-a-log considering we are on timber topics.

 Since there has been more postings about wood towers:
I guess enough amonut of timber would suffice, the problem is by the time poles are ringed, bolted, lashed or whatever together your sunk cost is probably greater than if you simply scrounged some pipe and welded one up.

Sure it might not snap off, but hey, if it does, not all is a waste....folks could use it like those cargo cult tribes do when they lash vines to their ankles and tower jump.

[TrackerJack]

I see now that it's hard to have an orginal (stolen) thought in this forum.

[Janne]

Utility poles can be indeed used as tower for wind turbines, but it will give you some problems. First problem is bringing the cable down the tower, with tubular / othewise hollow tower it's easy, but with a wooden tower you will have to use some smart thinking. You will also need to pay special attention to fixings between the wooden pole and your metal parts.

In my case it made sense to build the tower from wood, as the wooden pole was available for free. Considering, that at the time of building the turbine I had more time that money to spend on the project, it was a good choice. On the other hand, if you need to pay much money for the pole, then it probably makes more sense to go with a tower made from steel tubing.
Some pictures of the (46 feet)tower construction can be found in my picture album: http://pics.ww.com/v/Janne/Windmills/axial/

[Harold in CR]

 Any Power Co. Lineman can tell you how to put that turbine on the pole, once it is planted and guyed.

 What you need is a "Gin". That is a device that slides over a shaft (Pipe) that is attached to the pole with clamping action of some sort. That is how Transformers "USED" to be hung, changed out. I've done many that way.

 We also hung a "Jake" (actually a Dakota Wind and Sun 4KW) on a free standing tower at 65' above ground. I made the gin. Top section is 2 plates. I used ¼" steel. It is half of a rectangular shape, so, make a rectangle that is long enough to sit on a shaft (18" shaft) and that is ABOVE a ring that is welded around the shaft as a "Seat" for the top piece to swivel on. The length of the shaft will have to be so the Generator will be able to be swiveled over the top of the pole and set on whatever "Saddle" -Pipe, shaft the Gen rides on. Also, the shaft HAS to be 30" long to where it will attach to the side of the pole.

 Wish I had a Scanner.  Just found a similar device. http://www.westernsafety.com/hubbellpowersystems/hubbellpowerpg3.html  Also have 2 photos here on my desk of MY device IN USE.  We also hung Bergeys on Rohn 25G towers with a modified version.

 The one I made I made the top piece to swivel and it was that triangle shape I tried to describe. The top piece sets on the ring to swivel, once the load is raised up.

 I used 2 steel pulleys for rollers, and sandwiched them between the side plates. One on the outside end will hang over the edge a little, and the other will be mounted to the pull line (winch or whatever) can go over the pulley and down through the shaft (Pipe).

 Ask around a Power Co. for a lineman that would do the aerial stuff for you, IF he trusts YOU to handle the ground work. Even a tree climber would be able to do it.

 I have to tell you, it is doable but you need to coordinate and be able to TRUST each other, or SOMEONE WILL GET HURT, BADLY.

[electrondady1]

you hawt guys seem to need to fix stuff on your mills all the time  
 so why not make it easy to put them up and down?
pepa's idea is good one .
 but, if you start with something like a trebuchet ,
place your windmill on one end and a large water tank on the other.
if you want it up, fill the tank with water
 if you want it down let the water drain out.

[TomW]

if you want it up, fill the tank with water
 if you want it down let the water drain out.

Or some idiot trespassing "hunter" pumps a round thru your tank? 

I would personally secure the pole upright with hardware as well. The counterbalance would make it simple to raise and lower .

Funny thing is nobody said "it absolutely can't be done" with a pole. Just that there were issues.

Someone on Guemes Island had one attached to a really tall tree some years ago.

I say use what works and use what you have if it will work. Beware of related costs to reusing something you happen to have on hand that is not appropriate. Been there, done that. Spend $50 to use something you saved $5 on.


Tom

[hayfarmer]

I actually have planed to add a micro mill to this flag pole,on a 1 .5 inch pipe  pivoted in middle of telephone pole and pulled up with pulley on top, than the  1 1/2 inch pipe will

be bolted to pole.the hardware was on a pole I scrounged from h.d. galvanized pivot,just a project  don't really need the additional power at farm.(when the bug bites you

   have  make   more power) and who  says you cant make a wood tower any way?       hayfarmer

                                                                               

[DanG]

On that example 50' store-bought pole, having a concrete counterbalance to achieve near-neutral weight with/without 300-pounds of mill and hardware would be getting closer to do-able, though with fabrication & delivery costs it is at or nearly a wash cost wise from traditional tower options.

The long-pole pivot fulcrum brace would have to be sleeved over the pole to keep from weakening the wood, three or four feet of steel pipe.. And then two taperless 25-foot poles precision set to get pivot point at 16-20 foot high, plus another couple of sections of steel pipe to band their hinge points... the weight jacket - bracket and stabilizing cables & anchors... big bucks unless you have access to plate steel and heavy galvanized hardware already.

However - if you have decent standing timber on your land with that cost eliminated it might become more reasonable. I found four copper-screen butyl-rubber barrier membrane pole boots used to protect wood from ground contact rot and am seriously considering using local cut logs to achieve the above described mast as my homestead starter tower - certainly not trying for fifty feet though!