Author Topic: My next turbine (Read 11061 times)

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #33 on:** April 11, 2011, 06:41:13 PM »

Quote from: fabricator on April 11, 2011, 05:11:32 PM

That is the problem with gears is everything has to be perfect, with chain and sprockets you have some wiggle room, if you were running for a few years on gears, you had to have had a high level of precision going, I wouldn't even want to try it, I'm not that good

An oil bath roller chain drive is just about maintenance free. On a close shaft spacing you don't need any sort of tensioner either.

Oil bath chain drives drove Detroit V-8 camshafts for years and years before some idiot came up with the idea of using a rubber band to drive overhead cams. And those chain cam drives operated for years and thousands and thousands of miles at very high speed with very few failures. And those weren't even roller chains for the most part - mostly link belt chains with a plastic driven sprocket on the camshaft so they'd run quiet. The plastic cam sprocket shedding its teeth was the main point of failure in those cam drives. The first thing you did when building a high performance engine was throw the stock timing chain and sprocket set away and bolt in a dual-row roller chain timing set.

With the roller chain drive there's no need to change oil in it unless it gets water in the gearcase somehow - and even then it probably wouldn't hurt it much because the water will just settle out in the sump and not cause a problem anyway. I'm expecting between 20,000-30,000 hours out of a chain and when the backlash gets excessive you pop the cover off the gearcase, roll a new one around the sprockets, fill it up with oil and stick it back up in the air. As long as you don't run it after it develops excessive backlash so the chain starts climbing the sprocket teeth, the sprockets will last indefinitely in oil bath. Putting the high speed pinion in the oil causes it to pick up oil like a pump and fling it around inside the gearcase to prevent rust on the insides of the gearcase. As long as you got the oil level right - so just the bottom of the chain is covered as it goes around the pinion - it also sucks a "hole" in the oil level so there's no viscous drag. All you have to do is keep the chain wet.

My concerns about the roller chain drive being hard to turn in extremely cold weather was completely unfounded too. Even at 30 below last winter that turbine started up at 3-4 mph and was putting out power at 6. The first one had ATF mixed with diesel fuel, the second one had 80W-90 gear oil in it - didn't make one bit of difference. I finally put 80W-90 in both of them because it sticks to the chain better.
--
Chris

fabricator · « **Reply #34 on:** April 11, 2011, 06:59:21 PM »

The perfect example of an extreme duty chain drive would be a dirt bike, hell I still got a Yamaha 250 out under the pile somewhere that has the same chain and sprockets on it that it had when it was brand new in 1981, it was common practice to spray some chain lube those chains, they'ed pick up dirt and sand and anything else that got thrown on em, THAT is an extreme duty chain and sprocket application.

Royalwdg · « **Reply #35 on:** April 14, 2011, 09:44:23 AM »

Sorry about the confusion. My website for RWS blades has been seriously tampered with and had to be rebuilt. It's back up minimally for contact info. Pricing and tech pages will soon follow. www.royalwindandsolar.com. Sorry again for the confusion, Dave Moller

kitestrings · « **Reply #36 on:** April 14, 2011, 12:49:59 PM »

fabricator,

Nice work. Thanks for sharing and please continue post your progress. It's great to se some different approaches/solutions.

Our Sencenbaugh uses hardened gears in an oil-bath (DN-600). I haven't found it to be more maintenance. I wonder to if it doesn't off-set blade wear & tear for an direct drive?

~kitestrings

fabricator · « **Reply #37 on:** April 14, 2011, 07:42:02 PM »

Quote from: Royalwdg on April 14, 2011, 09:44:23 AM

Sorry about the confusion. My website for RWS blades has been seriously tampered with and had to be rebuilt. It's back up minimally for contact info. Pricing and tech pages will soon follow. www.royalwindandsolar.com. Sorry again for the confusion, Dave Moller

What is the lead time on blades these days Dave?

dloefffler · « **Reply #38 on:** April 14, 2011, 09:01:59 PM »

How was the housing made?

Nice welding!

Dennis

fabricator · « **Reply #39 on:** April 14, 2011, 09:31:50 PM »

Quote from: dloefffler on April 14, 2011, 09:01:59 PM

How was the housing made?

Nice welding!

Dennis

Welding 1/4 plate laser cut discs to laser cut flanges and one 2' tall rolled up cylinder, then I made 1/2" thick steel bosses to mount the bearings to and welded them to the discs, after much careful alinngment.
Then you have to face the rotor discs on a stub shaft to ensure there is no very little run out between the sides with the magnets, these prolly have 2-3 thousandths of run out, then because you are removing material in the facing operation after you mount the magnets you need to balance the discs, right now at 2000 rpms the machine barely jiggles, that's 2.5 the expected max rpm.

Royal · « **Reply #40 on:** April 14, 2011, 11:00:13 PM »

Fab, That looks like some interesting fabricating. Lead time on blades is 2 to 3 weeks. As soon as my own glue system is ready (which will be soon) lead times will be shorter. Better choices of woods will soon be offered. I'll let you know. Dave Moller

fabricator · « **Reply #41 on:** April 15, 2011, 10:04:43 AM »

Cool, thanks Dave.

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #42 on:** April 15, 2011, 02:50:55 PM »

Quote from: kitestrings on April 14, 2011, 12:49:59 PM

I wonder to if it doesn't off-set blade wear & tear for an direct drive?

The slower you can run the blades, the less leading edge tip wear you'll get. On my first geared machine the blade tips ran at 125-130 mph on the top end. I increased the gear ratio to .4375:1 and that dropped the tip speed down to 120-125 mph. The machine cuts in at 5.7 mph instead of 6, and adding 1/4" preload to the power limiter spring still tops it out at right around 2 kW.

The "ideal" TSR for the GOE222's with 10 degree pitch angle is, I believe, 5.7. However, I've run them well below 4 TSR fully loaded and they still don't seem to care much. So I've gone on a mission to reduce the rotor speed as far as I can and still get the top end power I want. That mission has yielded some really impressive output numbers at 12 mph.

Fab's machine is going to use about the same parameters as my latest ones with the taller gear ratio. So at 12-15 mph I think Fab's geared turbine will be pretty impressive too. It'll turn a lot less rotor rpm than mine, but the tip speed of the blades will be pretty close to the same.
--
Chris

dloefffler · « **Reply #43 on:** April 18, 2011, 10:41:28 PM »

Love the welding quality. Will corrosion be an issue with the gusset welds being segmented? If not, how is the junction handled?

Thanks,

Dennis

fabricator · « **Reply #44 on:** April 19, 2011, 05:24:54 PM »

Everything will get marine grade epoxy primer and paint, that'll seal everything up, although I am thinking about sending it out to be hot dip galvanized, at work we ship stuff to be hot dipped about once a week, if I sent it with a regular shipment it wouldn't cost me much.

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #45 on:** April 19, 2011, 07:42:10 PM »

Worth industries makes a acid spray that will also clean and galvanize metal we use it on rust repair in the auto industry.

With your new turbine how have you decided on tail length and size . On my 20 foot direct drive solid shaft unit I have got everything done but this I am using a spring system I did my best to estimate spring load but just curious if there was a mathematic way of figuring out some of this . I am assuming you are using a spring setup not gravity for furling .

Jarrod
Maine

fabricator · « **Reply #46 on:** April 19, 2011, 08:37:33 PM »

Yeah, it'll be a spring set up, it'll be pretty much trial and error, I'll probably start with a 12' long tail boom and 9-10 sq ft of tail.

dloefffler · « **Reply #47 on:** April 20, 2011, 10:29:40 AM »

More questions:

1. Will the oil level be below the lowest shaft?
2. How do yo prevent oil migration/leakage along the shaft/keyway to the outside of the sprocket housing?

I have taken several years of night school welding at the local tech school, I am in awe of welders such as yourself, it is artwork.

Dennis

fabricator · « **Reply #48 on:** April 20, 2011, 04:59:24 PM »

Quote from: dloefffler on April 20, 2011, 10:29:40 AM

More questions:

1. Will the oil level be below the lowest shaft?
2. How do yo prevent oil migration/leakage along the shaft/keyway to the outside of the sprocket housing?

I have taken several years of night school welding at the local tech school, I am in awe of welders such as yourself, it is artwork.

Dennis

1. Yes the oil level basically just covers the width of the chain on the small (bottom) sprocket
2. There may be some very slight oil weeping but I'm not concerned with it, in all my test runs I haven't seen any yet, I believe you could run enclosed setup like this with just a shot of spray on chain lube once a year and have it last for ten years.
As far as the welding goes, I'm 51 and my eyes aint what they used to be, welding with bifocals is a bitch, twenty years ago I'd be ashamed of some of those welds.

Royalwdg · « **Reply #49 on:** April 20, 2011, 05:21:53 PM »

Fab, I hear that loud and clear. I'm 52 I use trifocals and have added a magnifier to my welding helmet. You do what you gotta do. Never quite. Dave M

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #50 on:** April 20, 2011, 07:51:54 PM »

Quote from: fabricator on April 20, 2011, 04:59:24 PM

2. There may be some very slight oil weeping but I'm not concerned with it, in all my test runs I haven't seen any yet, I believe you could run enclosed setup like this with just a shot of spray on chain lube once a year and have it last for ten years.

I use Loktite between the shaft and bearing inner race and the keyways do not extend inside the bearing race. Got over 3,000 hours running time on those machines and haven't seen a drop of oil leak out yet.
--
Chris

artv · « **Reply #51 on:** April 20, 2011, 07:53:05 PM »

Hi Fab .....a thing of beauty.........wish I had half your ability......
First I gotta get some arms that are about six inches longer...lol.....

looks great...........artv

fabricator · « **Reply #52 on:** April 20, 2011, 07:56:52 PM »

Quote from: Royalwdg on April 20, 2011, 05:21:53 PM

Fab, I hear that loud and clear. I'm 52 I use trifocals and have added a magnifier to my welding helmet. You do what you gotta do. Never quite. Dave M

Yep, I got a 2 power cheater lenses in my helmets too, without those it would look like a bad caulk job.

fabricator · « **Reply #53 on:** April 20, 2011, 08:12:24 PM »

Quote from: ChrisOlson on April 20, 2011, 07:51:54 PM

Quote from: fabricator on April 20, 2011, 04:59:24 PM
2. There may be some very slight oil weeping but I'm not concerned with it, in all my test runs I haven't seen any yet, I believe you could run enclosed setup like this with just a shot of spray on chain lube once a year and have it last for ten years.

I use Loktite between the shaft and bearing inner race and the keyways do not extend inside the bearing race. Got over 3,000 hours running time on those machines and haven't seen a drop of oil leak out yet.
--
Chris

Yeah I forgot to add that, my keys don't extend into the bearings at all, I just used good old permatex between the inner races and the shafts.

windy · « **Reply #54 on:** April 20, 2011, 10:51:03 PM »

fabricator,

I am wondering on your geared windmill, how many inches of offset do you have between the center of the drive shaft and the yaw tube? Are you using the standard offset of 1/2 of the blade diameter in inches? 16 feet=8 inch offset?

windy

dloefffler · « **Reply #55 on:** April 21, 2011, 04:06:53 PM »

Sorry for playing multiple questions; but appreciate all the advice.

How did you determine the distance between shafts? Formula? Amount of play in chain? Idler wheel?

Was the housing placed on a mill after the bosses were welded to locate the bearing blocks prior to tapping?

Did you mill the faces of the bosses to assure parallelism?

Thanks for sharing your experience so generously.

Yup, older than you 2 diopter mags help.

Dennis

fabricator · « **Reply #56 on:** April 21, 2011, 05:30:44 PM »

Quote from: windy on April 20, 2011, 10:51:03 PM

fabricator,

I am wondering on your geared windmill, how many inches of offset do you have between the center of the drive shaft and the yaw tube? Are you using the standard offset of 1/2 of the blade diameter in inches? 16 feet=8 inch offset?

windy

I guess I didn't know that was a standard but it is eight inches of offset.

fabricator · « **Reply #57 on:** April 21, 2011, 06:12:34 PM »

Quote from: dloefffler on April 21, 2011, 04:06:53 PM

Sorry for playing multiple questions; but appreciate all the advice.

How did you determine the distance between shafts? Formula? Amount of play in chain? Idler wheel?

I believe the standard is to try to stay as close to 120 degrees of contact as possible, there are several chain length calculators on the web,
I punched the numbers in and the one I used gave me the center to center distance and the length of the chain,
I thought I book marked it but I can't find it right now, no idler, very little play

Was the housing placed on a mill after the bosses were welded to locate the bearing blocks prior to tapping?
No, I used a transfer punch to locate the holes in the bosses then drilled and tapped, then turned faced the ends of the input tube in the lathe to ensure the ends were paralell, I welded the input tube to the case the the boss to the input tube.
Next I installed the drive shaft and put the big sprocket up against the inside of the gear case and tightened the set screw, that's like using a big round square to line the shaft up with the case, next I bolted on the back side of the case and bolted the rear bearing to the boss and slid it onto the main shaft and simply tacked the boss to the case, I did basically the same thing with the output shaft, I checked all the shafts with a dial indicator that reads to .0005 to make sure there was no run out anywhere, the bearings are self aligning so the will take a small amount of misalignment but I don't have any I can measure.

Did you mill the faces of the bosses to assure parallelism?

Thanks for sharing your experience so generously.

Yup, older than you 2 diopter mags help.

Dennis

dloefffler · « **Reply #58 on:** April 21, 2011, 11:29:23 PM »

Thanks,

Very, very clever; the difference between years of experience and a few semesters of welding/maching classes. Thanks for sharing.

I did notice the transfer punches on the saw table. So, as long as I am being so curious, what is the machine painted blue behind the gear case?

I am behind the curve compared to many of you; but it seems to me that the increased alternator speed and decreased tip speed is a good idea if the machining and fabrication equipment is available.

Dennis

fabricator · « **Reply #59 on:** April 22, 2011, 06:27:12 AM »

I had to go take a look to see what you were talking about, that's a Dillon reloader, I use it to reload .45 ACP, that's a whole nuther story, because of "custom" modifications that machine will make 2000 rounds per hour, I used to shoot in some pistol competitions, practice was usually 1000 rounds per week, but I just cant keep up with those kids anymore.

dloefffler · « **Reply #60 on:** April 24, 2011, 09:47:21 AM »

A design question.

Is there a reason support for the turbine to the mast is on the transfer case instead of along the tube which supports the turbine blades? I realize mast/tower clearance is an issue, but it seems that flex in the transfer case may be an issue at the flange and associated bolt holes.

Additionally, would it be easier to achieve static balance over the mast by having some of the weight placed behind the pivot point rather than the majority over the turbine side?

Electrical question.

I am assuming that the primary reason for increaseing the alternator speed this is to increase output voltage, reduce wire size and ease fabrication of the stator and decrease blade speed.

Thanks for the answer on the Dillon - haven't done much shooting since I was a kid, dad was a cop so a fair amound of .38 special time when young.

Dennis

methanolcat · « **Reply #61 on:** April 24, 2011, 04:50:54 PM »

fabricator,

Well done, it looks great. I like the high quality craftsmanship you have done, good job. I'm gonna have to bookmark this one so I can find it later since I don't keep up on here like I used to.

Do you have more pictures somewhere of the gear box project? I'm going to be making a gear box as well in time.

What is your gear ratio? sorry if I missed it somewhere. (edit) Sorry, just saw it in the first post, 4 - 1, must have been too busy looking at your fine work.

Matt

fabricator · « **Reply #62 on:** April 24, 2011, 07:05:19 PM »

Quote from: dloefffler on April 24, 2011, 09:47:21 AM

A design question.

Is there a reason support for the turbine to the mast is on the transfer case instead of along the tube which supports the turbine blades? I realize mast/tower clearance is an issue, but it seems that flex in the transfer case may be an issue at the flange and associated bolt holes.

Additionally, would it be easier to achieve static balance over the mast by having some of the weight placed behind the pivot point rather than the majority over the turbine side?

Electrical question.

I am assuming that the primary reason for increaseing the alternator speed this is to increase output voltage, reduce wire size and ease fabrication of the stator and decrease blade speed.

Thanks for the answer on the Dillon - haven't done much shooting since I was a kid, dad was a cop so a fair amound of .38 special time when young.

Dennis

The input tube has two gussets that transfer load on the tube to the face of the case, which in turn transfers the load to the case sides and the bolt flange, the face of the case is the approximate center of balance will be.

fabricator · « **Reply #63 on:** April 24, 2011, 07:19:04 PM »

Quote from: methanolcat on April 24, 2011, 04:50:54 PM

fabricator,

Well done, it looks great. I like the high quality craftsmanship you have done, good job. I'm gonna have to bookmark this one so I can find it later since I don't keep up on here like I used to.

Do you have more pictures somewhere of the gear box project? I'm going to be making a gear box as well in time.

What is your gear ratio? sorry if I missed it somewhere. (edit) Sorry, just saw it in the first post, 4 - 1, must have been too busy looking at your fine work.

Matt

Sorry but no, these are pretty much it.

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #64 on:** April 24, 2011, 08:39:01 PM »

On the tail are you going to off set the hinge to match for balance .On my direct drive unit shaft driven I off set the hinge mount 6 inches to help the balance on yaw tube .I hope with this it will allow me to run the blades straight in to wind and not have to kick the tail out 15 deg like my homebrew version .

fabricator · « **Reply #65 on:** April 24, 2011, 09:02:33 PM »

No, my tail is gonna be centered on the input shaft.

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Author Topic: My next turbine (Read 11061 times)