Thinking about grid-tie

[dnix71]

Grid power is one of our American "bargains". It is inexpensive because of the enormous subsidization by industry and  politicians keeping the "apparent costs" to the voting public low by making it an incidental cost of every product we buy.

I was in college when Carter was President and the oil "crisis" then caused a lot of trouble because people couldn't accurately forecast the cost of energy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_energy_crisis

Appliances were not as efficient as they are now and it caused the university a lot of grief having to choose between paying for electricity increases or laying off state workers.

I don't fault the US for changing the game to make electricity costs more stable, but your choice to use less by making your own is the right way to go. That's the way I roll, too.

6kwh/month average grid use, mostly to run an irrigation pump on the property, no a/c in the summer.

The British are about to learn the hard way because of 'green' initiatives that require burning less fossil fuels to make elelctricity. People there will have more than warm ale to worry about when they don't have enough power to go around.

[ChrisOlson]

My wife and I have lived off-grid for 8 years this coming June 9th.  At first, diesel fuel was fairly cheap and we ran the generator a lot and ran lights and appliances at night with an inverter and batteries.  I had a couple little microturbines that didn't last very long and they never made much power anyway.

The last three to four years I've gone on a mission to eliminate running the generator except in dire emergency.  That mission has cost us close to $20,000.  We live pretty good and only use about 10-12 kWh/day on average.  On really good days we'll use 30 kWh because we do extra things like wash clothes, heat more water and store it, etc..  On poor days we can get by on 5 kWh and we don't turn on the TV or computers, we cook on our gas grille, and several other things to save on power.

Even with ~$20,000 invested we still don't have an air conditioner until this year.  And it's the smallest window unit you can buy, just for our bedroom.  Some days our system could run it on wind and solar power, but we bought a new Generac EcoGen with two-wire autostart and that's one of the main reasons we bought it - to be able run that little AC unit without sacking the batteries so we can sleep on really hot nights.  So for the most part, that AC unit is going to be run with LP gas burned in the gen engine.

I have a lot of people ask me questions about our system because we live off-grid.  They have the mistaken notion that if they put in a wind turbine or solar panels it's going to save them money.  Either one is going to cost them money - way more than just buying power from the grid.  If you want to save money overhaul your entire energy lifestyle and get your power usage down to 10-12 kWh per day in your house first.  Putting in a small wind turbine to offset energy usage in a home that uses 850 kWh a month is like the proverbial pi$$in' in the ocean unless you drop $40 Grand on a Bergey Excel.  And even then that big turbine won't meet your energy needs some days.
--
Chris

[DamonHD]

The British are about to learn the hard way because of 'green' initiatives...

Actually, I think we're doing the right thing in the UK discussing in public and not just ignoring the whole issue pretending that things can go on as they have been, plus taxing the carbon one way or another to drive it out of the system.

Rgds

Damon

[fabricator]

Amen brother, it appears at least from the outside that big oil and big coal don't own your government as is the case in the US, here big oi and big coal will allow people to mess around a little with RE until it starts to affect their bottom line. When that begins to happen they get their puppet government in Washington to pass legislation to nip that stuff in the bud.
The imbecile republicans in Washington still insist on continuing billions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies to big oil for oil exploration, all at a time when big oil is making billions per quarter in profits because of profiteering that is legal for them but no one else.
If they lost their exploration subsidies it would amount to less that one percent of the profit they make per quarter, it's like living in a place where the mad hatter makes the rules.

[wdyasq]

Amen brother, it appears at least from the outside that big oil and big coal don't own your government as is the case in the US, here big oi and big coal will allow people to mess around a little with RE until it starts to affect their bottom line. When that begins to happen they get their puppet government in Washington to pass legislation to nip that stuff in the bud.
The imbecile republicans in Washington still insist on continuing billions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies to big oil for oil exploration, all at a time when big oil is making billions per quarter in profits because of profiteering that is legal for them but no one else.
If they lost their exploration subsidies it would amount to less that one percent of the profit they make per quarter, it's like living in a place where the mad hatter makes the rules.

Actually, there are imbecilic voters who put both the imbecile republicans and the imbecile democrats in office. These voters are stupid in the fact they never realize taxes on businesses are always paid for by the consumer. OR, the business fails and jobs are lost .... Or if the taxes continue to be high and the company has the ability, they take the jobs out of the US and into an area more business friendly.

Actually, with all of the regulations, rules and little Kings created by city, county, state and federal  governments, it surprises me the unemployment isn't higher than it is. The company I am working for now is moving their manufacturing facilities because of the petty rules and regulators in our area. Many jobs will move. A large section of tax base will be lost to the city and county and move to a friendlier area. This will increase my commute and fuel bill. Now it is over $600 month just for gas.

Jobs are scarce here. But, my place is paid for and I won't move to pay rent and keep my place here.

The oil companies don't feel the risk of drilling is worth the rewards if they can't get the same tax breaks as CharBucks and Hooters. Dry holes can't be recycled if they fail. So, I guess those industries will move to Brazil or?

I guess when the idiots are freezing in the dark and mass transit fails to deliver the fools in cities to the polls, sanity in government may return.

Ron

[ghurd]

These voters are stupid in the fact they never realize taxes on businesses are always paid for by the consumer. OR, the business fails and jobs are lost .... Or if the taxes continue to be high and the company has the ability, they take the jobs out of the US and into an area more business friendly.

I agree.

This area is a transportation hub because of the way the Great lakes bend.  And history related to this is where the coal is, and railroads.  And the population distribution in North America.
Access to big water for import/export, and basic shipping.
The factories were already here, and the Great Lakes made the interstate highways run here very densely.  Where else can I80 run together with I90, and I80 run with I76, and get odd numbers I71 to I79 in less than 40 minutes!
Over half the population of North America is within a reasonable 1 day drive (old and possibly outdated statistic).  From here in 1 day drive, I can be in NY, NY or StL, MO, or Northern FL, or Maniwaki, QC.
So the state gooberment makes property tax on inventory.  Companies paid it for years.
Times got tough.
Companies realized moving warehouses a few miles east (to PA) has all the benifits without the tax.
And because times were tough, the well paid OH workers were laid off, and the new facilities hired much lower wage new-hires from PA.

On the bright side, if there is a bright side, a few of the vacant warehouses eventually fell under tax-incentive programs, and reopened, now staffed with people trying to support families with minimum wage jobs.
G-

[fabricator]

I guess when the idiots are freezing in the dark and mass transit fails to deliver the fools in cities to the polls, sanity in government may return.

Ron

As far as I'm concerned that can't happen too soon.