Author Topic: furling animation  (Read 5741 times)

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kitestrings

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furling animation
« on: April 27, 2011, 02:28:35 PM »
Greetings,

I don't know if any one else may remember this,

http://www.fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,129336.html

but I thought it was a pretty cool animation of the furling action of a HAWT.  It was posted by dinges.  I wondered if anyone may have a working copy of it?

thanks for any help,

~kitestrings

TomW

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2011, 02:32:57 PM »
Sadly, Dinges got upset and left. Pulled all his files in the process.

Maybe the wayback machine has it cached?

Tom

SparWeb

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2011, 02:57:34 PM »
I might have a copy on my home computer.
He may have left the animations on the Backshed.  I don't think users can delete files there.
Any particular version you're looking for?  Peter D made many, and they take a lot of bandwidth...
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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JW

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2011, 09:03:05 PM »
Quote
He may have left the animations on the Backshed.  I don't think users can delete files there.

You can't delete files here either... What there doing is remotely hosting images, and breaking the link, or in some cases substituting the original picture, its an occupational hazard around here, and we have no explanation for it.  ???

JW

DanG

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2011, 11:21:20 PM »
Sadly, no .avi or animated gifs of furling in his files..
But Dinges did leave his self-portrait - avatar on the BackShed!

kitestrings

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2011, 04:19:46 PM »
Sparweb,

Quote
Any particular version you're looking for? 

I don't know.  I had it bookmarked, and I'd used it before to explain it to someone (who wasn't able to stand in my yard).  I thought it was a great visual tool.  I'll try the backshed.  If you have anything close, I'd be obliged.

~kitestrings

ghurd

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2011, 08:52:27 PM »
Not quite animation, but a dandy set of sketches,
http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/Docs/Furling.asp

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SparWeb

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2011, 11:02:29 PM »
2nd try posting graphics...  stored on my personal webspace instead then.

It's not the furling, though.  I can only find Peter's animations of magnetic flux patterns.

Cool enough...

http:\\www.sparweb.ca\Forum\Dinges_Axial_Animated_FEMM.gif   (319 kb GIF)
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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zap

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2011, 11:46:06 PM »
Here's the corrected link from the above post(forward slash instead of back slash... not sure how the "3.telus.net/faheydumas" gets added in automatically?):
http://www.sparweb.ca/Forum/Dinges_Axial_Animated_FEMM.gif
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 11:50:53 PM by zap »

SparWeb

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2011, 11:58:50 PM »
Oops sorry!  thanks for fixing that Zap.

The "www.sparweb.ca" is an alias for the longer version on the "Telus.net" servers.  I re-typed it but hit the wrong / \ keys.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

kitestrings

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2011, 09:42:03 AM »
Thanks folks.  I appreciate the efforts and info.

Cool indeed.

unfurled


furled



~kitestrings

« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 10:21:55 AM by DanG »

kitestrings

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2011, 09:47:14 AM »
Ghurd,

I was looking over the sketches from the Back Shed.  Overall there very good, and convey the concept.  There are a couple things I'll comment on though:

The note says that, "The insert picture is what you would see if you looked directly at the turbine"  Directly in this case means perpendicular to the plane of the blades; changing you view point as the thing furls.  Viewed from upwind, however, the wind-swept area changes from a circle to an increasingly smaller oval - which is why it works so well.  This would probably be an improvement to the insets.

It also says, "the tail will always point down wind".  While mostly true, initially the wind creates thrust which the weight of the tail is resisting.  Until gravity is overcome (and the force inherently keeping the tail in the wind stream), I believe there is a slight skew opposite this moment arm.

Lastly, the description expalains that furling is an effective method of making the turbine "safe", but goes on to say, "it provides output power regulation."  I don't think the latter is accurate.  Without battery regulation, diversion, or at least manual control of loads, the batteries still will overcharge and be damaged.

I know I'm not telling you anything new, but I thought it was worth mentioning for others who might get the wrong idea.

~kitestrings

Flux

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2011, 11:13:10 AM »
The ideal furling assumes a tail anchored directly down wind. This is never possible in real life as a vane directly down wind sees no steering force.

Any thrust from the prop acting on the alternator offset must be balanced by a restoring torque from the tail. Without an infinitely long boom or infinite area vane the tail must be offset to keep balance. I suggest that this offset is far more than normally realised, if you want proof of this then make a right furling machine and a left furling one and fly them close together so you can see the effect. Most likely the difference will be something approaching 90deg so each machine is offset near 45 deg. You can set the tail off 30 deg or so to give worthwhile correction and fortunately the prop power drops very little up to 30 deg error so things work ok but the offset tail looks ugly. There are furling schemes that avoid this error but they incorporate extra pivot bearings for the alternator. SWWP angle furling and the later type Lucas freelite do properly face the wind below furling ( as do vertical furl designs but they have real problems in other ways)

I think it is reasonable to say that furling provides power control, it certainly does not in any way provide charge control. It also provides little control of anything if the alternator comes off load, it some cases the prop will turn straight into the wind and run flat out ( the tail may end up at right Angles but it won't be directly down wind.

The explanation on the Backshed is the ideal based on thrust balance, it ignores the prop seeking force ( most people ignore it in the belief that it doesn't exist) it certainly gives you a good idea of the basic concept but forget the maths, there are factors that you can't calculate so why do sums to 3 decimal places when you may have an inherent error from seeking force that may make you an order of magnitude out in calculated tail weight. Be prepared to experiment and learn the hard way or copy an existing design ( I mean copy not adapt).

Furling can work. It does work but there are many things out there bending their tail that have never furled and never will mainly they survive from stall regulation. With little experience it is hard to be sure which mechanism is protecting you. Many of the pretty pictures we see of videos with tails at 30deg aren't furling at all.

Flux

kitestrings

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2011, 04:24:41 PM »
Quote
if you want proof of this then make a right furling machine and a left furling one and fly them close together so you can see the effect. Most likely the difference will be something approaching 90deg so each machine is offset near 45 deg.

This is interesting, I hadn't realized it was that much of an effect, but it does make sense.

The Lucas was like the old Winchargers - an 'air brake' - as I recall, but what is SWWP?

Power "regulation" was what gave me concern.  I think this suggests that furling is something it is not.

I suspect they'll be considerable trial and error and fine-tuning in most any design.  Even copying a design can have challenges, with all the variables.  In our case we will be using MPPT which will have a much wider range of speeds than a direct-tied design.  The alternator will not be heavily stalling the blades (I hope).  Even seemingly less significant differences - I know we will have some sort of yaw bearing (brass, oil-lite, roller - I don't like 'pipe over pipe'), tail weight, blade profile & finish, site turbulence - will no doubt affect things.  My current unit has an adjustable hinge angle.  Maybe this and/or a means of adding or removing tail weight would help in testing and trimming a design?

Overall I thought this was a very good illustration of an at once elegantly simple and complex mechansim.  Hopefully I conveyed that, even with my comments.

~kitestrings


SparWeb

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2011, 05:52:57 PM »
Kitestrings,
That's a good critique of the Backshed's intro to furling.

The means to add/remove weight from the tail is necessary, IMHO.  I have several pounds on the tail of my beast.  By starting with a tail too light, the furling occurs "too soon" on your first try.  Lower the tower, add weight, try again.  Rinse and repeat.

SWWP is "South West Wind Power" and it's a reference to their models with a furling tail (eg Whisper 500)
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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ghurd

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2011, 02:04:37 AM »
Ghurd,

I was looking over the sketches from the Back Shed. ....

Just to be clear, I am not him.  (his name has 2 N's)

A year or 2 ago I was getting emails regarding his sketches.
I informed him, he modified the sketches, then changed them back.
They are aimed at 'newbies' to grasp a concept, not a design guide.

I agree with Flux.
He said "I think it is reasonable to say that furling provides power control".
If it is set up correctly, the power is limited, and limited is controlled.

1000W max is 1000W max when furled (if set up correctly).  Watts is power.
Nobody said it is a charge controller, which is primarily based on voltage.  Voltage and power are different.

But I understand what you are saying.
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Flux

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2011, 02:33:30 AM »

"The Lucas was like the old Winchargers - an 'air brake' - as I recall, but what is SWWP?"

No the Lucas was similar to the small Wincharger in that it had a dynamo and 6ft prop but it used furling. The original was a conventional furling scheme with offset dynamo and spring controlled tail, it also ran at an angle to the wind. The later redesigned version had the dynamo mounted on its own pivot, although offset to the prop thrust it was not offset with respect to the tail in the yaw axis so it pointed straight into the wind right up to furling. When it furled the dynamo rotated about its own pivot. The restoring force was derived from the weight of the tail pulling on a control rod and bell crank on the dynamo bracket.

The SWWP angle governor was very similar ( you can probably get pictures of the "Whisper") it used the weight of the alternator acting on an inclined pivot for the restoring force but again the offset was to the alternator pivot, the prop thrust was directly in line with the tail.

These schemes do have advantages but it comes with the cost of a fairly critical load bearing pivot needed to support the generator, this needs good engineering to stand the thrust and generator weight, be rigid and free in operation. Not a budget scheme with pipe on pipe but but many here could engineer such ideas from some of the lovely work i have seen recently.

Flux

kitestrings

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Re: furling animation
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2011, 09:40:45 AM »
Ahhh, SWWP = South West Wind Power = Whisper, Skystream, etc.  I drew a blank on the acronym.

Neiilho & I just took one down, repaired and replaced a hi-voltage Whisper.  I'm familar with their furling design.  This one had survived well given that it is a fairly light-weight design (though under built IMHO).  We had another one, at a more turbulent site, that we took down in pieces really.

I'll have to google the Lucas unit.  Sounds interesting, but I'm not familiar with it.

thanks,  ~klitestrings