Rain water collection

[Rover]

OK ! Yep I know not RE, and not remote living. I live in an urban environment. And I'm curious on the use of rainwater collection and use for landscape watering. I use city water currently for the task, and a lot of my neighbors have a at least one well. A well is possible on my property but not without some issues (lots of electrical , grid, city water, tree roots, etc lines in place where I would want one) .

A year ago I went to a B&B on the eastern shore of VA, US where they were using rain water collection to water their flower beds. Water diverted from down spouts.

I'm thinking this may be viable (or at least reduce water usage in a combination system)  I have a good gutter system. I know they make cheap kits... even available at wallwart. Looking for info on on drain spout particulate separation, collection tank, pumps etc.

No matter how it was done, cheap, expensive, labor intensive, brain stetching, and yes those totally negative,  interested in all opinions.

OK... yeah I may make it RE by using some of bank power to run the pump
 

[zap]

I would love to do it but it's illegal for many of the folks in this state.

[rossw]

A year ago I went to a B&B on the eastern shore of VA, US where they were using rain water collection to water their flower beds. Water diverted from down spouts.

I'm thinking this may be viable (or at least reduce water usage in a combination system)  I have a good gutter system. I know they make cheap kits... even available at wallwart. Looking for info on on drain spout particulate separation, collection tank, pumps etc.

This has been standard practice in widespread use in Australia for ..... well, ever since people have had a roof over their heads.
Many people - particularly on farms - use it for drinking water.

Here it is rare to do anything more than put a strainer basket on the inlet to the tank to filter out the larger sticks, dead birds, possums etc and reduce evaporation. For garden use, I can't see what the problem is apart from perhaps some dirt eventually messing the bottom of the tank - fairly easily cleaned out once a decade or so by vigerously agitating whats in the bottom when teh tank is nearly empty, and flushing it out.

Lets face it - the rain that falls on the garden is the same stuff that lands on the roof, and water doesn't go "off" when stored properly.

[MaxtorD]

I kinda feel bad posting a link to another site than this fine one we are on, but this is a great link to a place that has some really great ideas.   

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Projects.htm
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Projects.htm

Click on Water Conservation.

[birdhouse]

rover-
i think it's a great idea!  i collect rain water up at my ranch.  started with one 55 gallon blue plastic barrel, and now has a total capacity of over 1800 gallons.  basically the water comes from a steel roof, into one 55g barrel, the overflow of this goes to a second 55g barrel, and the overflow from that goes to a 1500g cylindrical black plactic tank.  the overflow from that goes to a 275g "tote" that had something nasty in it, so i only use that water for washing concrete off shovels and such.

the reason for all of the overflows, is basically i use the two 55g barrels as silt collectors.  this keeps the 1500g tank much cleaner!  i'd like to do a first flush system, but have yet to do it. 

a few things i've learned through the process:  go for a big tank as soon as possible.  if you analize your water bill, it's pretty amazing how much water is used to water the lawn/plants ect.  my 1500 cost 550 USD new.  shopped around and found a deal.  elevate the tank as high as you can for good flow with no pumps.  this can be tricky as a 1500g tank would weigh over 12000 lbs.  may make more sense to use a pump... 

cover any holes that critters can get in.  i didn't do this the first time, and had 11 chip monks floating in there one time.   had to drain off 900 gallons of water, crawl inside with a repirator on with bleach and a mop.  NOT fun! 

i'm still learning, and refining, and eventually want to be able to drink the water, but not there yet. 

let us know what you decide!

adam

[rossw]

cover any holes that critters can get in.  i didn't do this the first time, and had 11 chip monks floating in there one time.   had to drain off 900 gallons of water, crawl inside with a repirator on with bleach and a mop.  NOT fun! 

i'm still learning, and refining, and eventually want to be able to drink the water, but not there yet. 

Ahh, you girls!  Critters floating in the tank just add flavour! 

[watermanhfl]

Rover,
I got into water collection last year for watering plants.  Two thoughts.
One is to hide the barrel in an urban environment.  I did this by placing a plastic liner inside a large wooden box/seat on my raised patio.  water comes in from bottom, underground so no ugly tubing, used 1".  Then gravity flow over to a hose bib on a lower level deck.  Can also gravity flow to a soaker hose.  Intake on gutter down spout just needs to be height you want in tank.
Works great.  I have a drain at lowest point for flush out and winter draining.  My plan this year is a pump to wash the car with mineral free water!  Tried pressure washer last year but it needs water pressure to maintain flow.
Enjoy, Ant

[DamonHD]

We in the Autumn put in a new downspout and water butt at the back of our house.

Primarily because our roof was designed to drain via the neighbour's roof, but their gutter is always clogged, so it was spilling down our wall ruining various things and giving us a patio door full of water...

Secondly because otherwise to water the garden we have to lug a watering can (or hose) through the house.

Now, also, the run-off doesn't go to the sewer but drains slowly from our garden which very very slightly reduces sewer load in a storm, as well as saving a little tap-water for watering.

Note however that cold-hearted energy analysis suggests that for most (in the UK at least), mains tap water is so efficiently produced that attempting to use such grey/rain water for tasks such as toilet flushing is unlikely to be a win, as I understand things.

Rgds

Damon

[thunderhead]

Note however that cold-hearted energy analysis suggests that for most (in the UK at least), mains tap water is so efficiently produced that attempting to use such grey/rain water for tasks such as toilet flushing is unlikely to be a win, as I understand things.

In the UK, many of you have water meters, right?

Rain water for toilet flushing is certainly a win, since it will reduce your total water usage to a fraction of what it would be.

For each square metre of house you have, a millimetre of rain will give you a litre.

[DamonHD]

Some do, some don't have meters in the UK; we don't.

It's maybe a win for money (and indeed as many are charged for sewage in proportion to water consumption there can be a double benefit), but I was meaning "saving the planet" kinda way.  There are lots of better ways to do that for most of us, it seems.

Rgds

Damon

[ghurd]

My old-timer neighbor did it for 40 years.
Naturally, 2 years ago he decided he was too old for a garden and removed the system.
Last year he decided he wanted a garden, but didn't get the collector finished.
He is rebuilding it this year, slowly, because it has not stopped raining or snowing for 10 weeks, so no photo opportunity.

One of those 8x14'(?) hip roof shed kits, garden roughly the same size, a 55 gallon drum, down spouts, faucet (and thread adapter), garden hose, no pump, no filter, no problem.
He cut a flap at the top to get his hand in to remove leaves once a year.  He may have those mushroom-shaped wire leaf filters that sticks in the downspout in the gutter?

Chipmunk tastes like chicken.
G-

[Bruce S]

I live in a city that does NOT allow the connection of one of these to the downspouts.
However, there is NO law and the MSD is now selling the plastic kits cheaper than what you can buy it at Lowes small though only 55gal sized & you have to prove you're a city resident and paid up.
I like them and plan on buying one to sit out in our little garden.
The top has a built in screen to keep the extra flavors and protein out 
IF your in a city that does allow them to be attached to your downspouts, you might look into getting a kit, they have the built-in flush that will fill with enough water to by-pass the rain-barrel so the water going into the barrel is free of floating debri.
They will also have a spigot or at least a place to attach one at a good low point.
I have a small unit already out in the garden built of nothing more than 5 gal bucket with 2lbs of play sand in the bottom and an old screen door screen on top.
Works just fine.
 I put the sand in it to keep the algae from growing or winged vampires from starting.
We use an old camping pot to dip water otherwise I'd need to rig up a spigot and a screen to keep sand in the bucket.
Hope this helps
Bruce S


     

[Rover]

Thanks to all for the suggestions. I've got some planning to do

For those using down spout diverters, what kind, where and how much aesthetic damage (we have new gutters and downspouts, wife might not be happy with me hacking into)

[birdhouse]

rover-
i don't know if you're asking about first flush systems or not, but if so, here's a youtube vid that explains it pretty well with colors and everything

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q_UOORNZ-M&playnext=1&list=PL30D5CD7014F1A967 

search first flush, and there are tons of folks making their own systems with varying degrees of workmanship/quality. 

how many down spouts do you need to get to your storage area?  one may be able to be eliminated to force more water down just one downspout.  many homes have more than needed. it almost depends more on gutter tilt than gutter size or length of run.  many homes have terrible flow due to bad installs with wrong tilt direction.  a gutter installer that carries a marble around with him knows what he's doing! 

i've never eaten chip monks, so unsure of their taste, but i know i'm not a fan of dead floating ones in my water tanks!  sounds like a lot of work for little amounts of meat! 

adam

[Rover]

Thanks birdhouse, I'll loook em up. At this stage I'm probably looking at just one downspout that I want to use, I have the larger 4" version , and integral rollover style leaf guards on the gutters.

Bruce, Interesting, reason for the ban on the connection? .. mosquitoes etc?

 

[birdhouse]

bruce's thing may be local, but i do know many states in the US own the water rights to the rain that falls on these states.  for example, washington owns the rain fall rights, and that is NOT where i have my collection rig. 

there may be exclusions for smaller systems, but i have not looked into this.

granted, my place is 10 miles from a town of 94, so i'm not too worried. 

adam

[ghurd]

"At this stage I'm probably looking at just one downspout that I want to use"

It is similar to battery banks.


It does not take much roof area to get a lot of water.
Going with the earlier math,
"For each square metre of house you have, a millimetre of rain will give you a litre."

Neighbor's ~8x14' roof is 10.4 sq meters.
0.1" of rain is 2.54mm = 26.4 liters = 7 US gallons.
Filling a 55 US gallon tank from his little shed only takes 3/4" of rain.

Factor in all the 'usually' conditions, and that 0.1" goes a long ways, because it is getting refilled 0.01~0.1" (3/4 ~ 7 gallons) at a time when the garden does not need watered, so when it needs watered the reservoir is adequately full.

Depending on the location (aesthetically speaking), total number of downspouts, and collected horizontal roof surface area of each downspout, might only need to 'screw up' one downspout.


I live in a slightly >100 year old city that does NOT allow the gutters to be connected to anything underground the city owns.  Other than that, I can do anything I want!
There are no 'storm sewers' per say... the 'drains' on the street go into the exact same pipe as the 'toilet sewage'.
I can not connect my downspouts to the city 'storm sewers', but I can feed the downspouts under the sidewalk, through the curb and onto the road, so 40' later they flow into the same damm pipe, because the sewage and storm sewers are the same damm pipe going to the same damm place.
(I did not believe they were the same pipe at the time they told me that, but I now know it is true... don't ask)

And, apparently, I can discharge my downspouts 0.00001" from the floor drains in my basement floor, which are connected to the city's sewage pipes (and obviously my sewage pipes are connected upstream of the floor drains... don't ask).

Sometimes it is better to beg forgiveness than ask permission.

[rossw]

many states in the US own the water rights to the rain that falls on these states.  for example, washington owns the rain fall rights

This is immoral at every damn level I care to think of.

Honestly, *EVERY LAST ONE OF YOU* who live in these states have a responsibility to SUE THE PANTS OF YOUR STATE GOVERNMENT each and every time you get storm damage from "THEIR" water.

Send your council a letter NOW. Tell them that it's THEIR problem to keep THEIR water OUT of YOUR place. Put them on notice that if THEIR water ruins ANYTHING of yours, you will REQUIRE THEM to REPLACE it.... and DO IT.

The sooner they give up on this nonsense, in every state of every country, the better off we all will be. They have NO DAMN RIGHT AT ALL to claim the sunshine, the wind or the rain that falls on "your patch" that you already pay them for.

</rant>

[electrondady1]

many states in the US own the water rights to the rain that falls on these states.  for example, Washington owns the rain fall rights

This is immoral at every damn level I care to think of.

that's whack
I'm no u.s. citizen, but i would certainly get active against  that sort of thing.

no one want's to tell me the crown has the rights to the rain that falls on my land.

[wpowokal]

Well said Ross but it realy is no different here, except for we are more at ease with telling the goberment to shove it were the sun don't shine.

Over in WA the goberment has had a few tries at imposing an "administration" fee on farmers relative to the size of the dam the farmer has built.

10 more days and I will no longer be growing food for Australians, I just hope they all enjoy their Chinese growen food, and I plan to live long enough to see Australians go hungry, limited (inadequate) food on superrmarket shelves, average age of farmers 60years, by the time the goberment wakes up there will be no one with the skills to grow food. Russia a wheat exporting country will again with hold all grain for their domestic market, don't have to be too bright to see the future.

Am going to an area that had 7 meters of rain this wet season, Allan sniggers.

[birdhouse]

allan-
that's a bummer about how you feel farmers are treated down there.  sounds like you are just plain fed up with all the BS and regs.  so are you retiring?  or moving to another trade?

heres the link to an article that talks of various states owning rainwater rights  (utah, colorado, washington)

http://www.naturalnews.com/029286_rainwater_collection_water.html

adam

[zap]

Honestly, *EVERY LAST ONE OF YOU* who live in these states have a responsibility to SUE THE PANTS OF YOUR STATE GOVERNMENT each and every time you get storm damage from "THEIR" water.

It's not "THEIR" water...
This is overly simplistic but...it belongs to the person who lives downstream from me, IF that person was using the water before I started using it.  The government is only protecting the rights of the people.
Water law is complicated... a google search for such can quickly show you why.
Because of it's geographic location and climate, Colorado has always been a hot spot when it comes to water law.

edit
Here's a fairly good primer on basic water law in the west at least:

http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Jan/1/241492.html

[Bruce S]

Thanks birdhouse, I'll look em up. At this stage I'm probably looking at just one downspout that I want to use, I have the larger 4" version , and integral rollover style leaf guards on the gutters.

Bruce, Interesting, reason for the ban on the connection? .. mosquitoes etc?

Rover;
Correct!
If the downspout are already connected from roof to storm drain system, they don't want anything to interfere with the system or allow other stuff coming in.
IF the downspout are not going into the storm drain system then you can do what you wish.
I had a non-clogging system installed years ago, I got tired of cleaning the pin-oak mini-trees out of the gutters
MSD was very nice came out checked the concrete installation around the attached downspout and made the installers fix the title pipe they broke when disconnecting the old gutters, at their expense. So it was a win - win for me.
They stay pretty active about mosquito control since the west Nile virus broke out around here and offed about 7 people last year alone. They had out those pucks for water control for free for people who have above ground pools or water features. I have both outside cats ( mice hunters) and dogs ( squirrel control) [ tastes great with gravy, squirrel NOT dog] DOG tastes totally different!

NOW of course if I wanted to attach the collection system to my shed, they have no problem with that at all, but it 50+ feet away and I can use the bucket, being replaced by 55gal unit on the 14th of MAY in the garden and collect much easier.

Cheers;
Bruce S



 

[Bruce S]

I agree with ZAP.
There are water laws and intrusive water rights laws.
In StL the laws are there to keep people from having standing water from downspouts going into neighbors basement or ruining foundations.
Those laws I agree with.
Water rights are a different animal, and there have been all out wars fought over them in different states. Even now there are civilized wars going on in the courts about aquifers and such.

WE have no problem fighting with the guberment or anyone else about rights.
However there are some rules and laws that actually work for the better, meaning not having a swarm of mosquitoes around looking for their next meal.
Could be due to different definitions and languages  rights and laws might be getting in the way here  ?

Bruce S

   

[Tritium]

I think I have posted this link before but here it is again for those who might have missed it.

A good read:  http://www.twdb.state.tx.us/publications/reports/RainwaterHarvestingManual_3rdedition.pdf

Thurmond

[wpowokal]

Birdhouse, Adam , yes I am tired of service industries having their hand in my pocket among limited returns etc, but it is not me there is much discussion in the media on the same subject here in OZ.

This is a distraction from the original posters point so I will end this.

Allan

[birdhouse]

thurmond-
thanks for posting that link!  it's a great read!  very informative. 

adam

[cdtomlinson]

I use a 225 gallon tank to collect rain water for livestock and plants.  I don't presently filter anything, though I plan to eventually.  These tanks are available around here for about $35 so I am told.  Everybody has probably seen them.  They are the plastic tanks with metal framing around.  I got mine much cheaper, but my source dried up.  I plan to build a system for my daughter soon.  My system is full in one good rain off my barn roof.  I run my overflow right on the ground at the moment. [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]

[rossw]

Everybody has probably seen them.  They are the plastic tanks with metal framing around. 

We know them as "IBC" - bulk "pallet" drums. They have integrated tap and so on. I got one that fits in the back of the 1-ton 4WD. Bolted the honda fire pump on the tailgate, and it makes a great fire truck for around the property for burning off, fighting small fires, watering the trees or even just getting water where you're mixing up a few yards of concrete

[guruji]

Wells should be a must to all countries. In my country it's a law to do a well when building a new house. Another thing is there a way to soften rock for digging a well in hard rock?
Thanks