Author Topic: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine  (Read 32349 times)

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methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2011, 07:57:55 PM »
      It could be the (amp) clamp meter at lower currents, I don't have any good way that I know of to test it, nothing dead on anyhow. I didn't pay a lot for it so it may be where the fault is.

     After running the numbers and plugging in 10.8 ohm load and using the volts I charted, I come up with all of the amp measurements could be off one way or another 1 amp and make better since, so it kinda looks like the amp meter might be at fault here on shady readings.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 08:03:59 PM by methanolcat »

zvizdic

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2011, 09:00:03 PM »
Your voltage at 177 V x 1.732 =306.564 x 15.65 = 4797.7 W
At 306V and 10.8 ohms =8670W  not enough input power.

Your max should be at 1000 RPM  500V and 25 A  =12500W.


Your lathe is not powerful enough . My 2 cents
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 09:49:31 PM by zvizdic »

SparWeb

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2011, 12:13:54 AM »
Cool CAT,  8)   
I'm not ignoring you, I just don't have time to spend on the forum any more it seems.  Springtime...
I tried to find time for an answer at lunchbreak, even started a spreadsheet with your numbers, had to quit before typing a reply.  Damn job...

First thing to do is sort out the AC and DC.  The load is DC, so figuring out the V and A at the load would make more sense than trying to figure out the power in AC phases and then working through to the load.

So the measured 177VAC was read across 2 phases in Wye at 654 RPM.  Let's stick with that for a moment and get to the rest of the speeds later.  That VAC is rectified into DC, and 3-phase rectifier gives you 6 peaks per cycle, and the peaks equal the peak of the AC waveform.  Assuming the AC is a sine (close in your case, not so for battery charging) then the VDC is equal to VAC*1.41 = 250 V.

The current is a bit less obvious, but I have tried measuring simultaneously to check, and I get about 1:1 ratio when converting the current in AC to DC, but only in Wye.  So let's say the current through the resistor is 15.7 amps.

The power dissipated by the resistor is (250V)*(15.7)=3925 Watts.  I'd like to see a photo of the resistor!  Either it's huge, or you have rigged up a water-heating element.

At the same time, the windings are shedding heat.  That's all AC so the formulas are something you can look up:  P=(3 ohm)*(15.7A)^2 *1.73 = 1281 Watts

Ignoring all the other little parasitic losses (small %) the total power driving the shaft must be 3925 W + 1281 W = 5206 W, or 6.98 HP.    Yeah no kidding the lathe was hot!

The efficiency of the generator is 3925/5206 = 75%   These motor conversions sure like to run at high voltages.

Comparing the open-circuit Volts/RPM, which was about 0.4, to this level, 177v/654RPM = 0.27 v/RPM.  Looks good, because there is always a voltage drop when current flows.  If you can get back to the lathe, try it with two of those 10.8 Ohm resistors in parallel, at about 2.7 Ohms.  Somewhere I read that the source-load efficiency is highest when they have the same impedance.  That may just be audio-amplifier lore, but maybe a similar principle applies here.  I would expect to find a much faster rise in power, too, resulting in a lathe that won't go past 400 RPM.

16 Amps is probably close to the rated current of the original motor.  Now that you have it re-wound who can really say what the peak is now, but a reasonable guess would be to compare the original circ-mils of the original wire to the circ-mils of the new wire you've used and that will scale it up into the ball park.

Since you are looking for way way more power and I guess you still want to gear up for speed, then I think you'll have to come up with some other driving power if you want to test for higher output.  Do you have a tractor with a PTO?

Okay enough numbers.  (somebody check my math please?)  It's all just calculations but they do tell a story that makes sense.

One more thing:  I saw the base of the motor on a board to keep it steady while you were driving it.  Good for getting electrical numbers.  How about mechanical power numbers.  Go back and look at how I set up my tests - wanna try a beam+scale like that?  Then you can see how close or how far my guesstimate about input shaft power was.
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MattM

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2011, 07:08:23 AM »
Sounds like significant heat can be garnered off of it.  Any thought to capturing it?

methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2011, 07:00:03 PM »
    The heat in the generator, I doubt it, not easily anyhow. You really want to avoid it as much as possible but thats hard to do, do all that you can to remove the heat, it would help to get the stator resistance lower but that means packing in more wire where there isn't space, and if you was to use less turns and double up the wire to create more space then you also lower your voltage at any comparable rpm. In my opinion for what I am doing (using power for heating) I think the higher the voltage and the lower the current the better off I am without going too extreme or getting too dangerous with it, and if electronics are involved those factors have to be thought about as well.

zvizdic

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2011, 09:29:56 PM »
Your voltage at 177 V x 1.732 =306.564 x 15.65 = 4797.7 W
At 306V and 10.8 ohms =8670W  not enough input power.

Your max should be at 1000 RPM  500V and 25 A  =12500W.


Your lathe is not powerful enough . My 2 cents

My mistake

306 x 1.4 =428V DC x 15.65 =6700W

Now the power at a chuck should be 3 x 7.5HP or 22 HP  but with gearing there is loses of power .

Ad a stator heat loses you close to 50% efficiency.

methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2011, 10:11:25 PM »
zvizdic,

         Either way, I'm pretty impressed with the generator, just not sure yet its what I want for the new geared up turbine, call me greedy but I want more than what I think it could provide.

        I've been thinking about a radial where the coils are encased in fiberglass and no iron in the stator, I just have to work out a design, something not too complicated to construct, something large with lots of wire in it, several in hand to get the resistance down. A design with magnets on both sides of the stator might get complicated so I'm not sure on the design yet.

zvizdic

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2011, 10:29:35 PM »
If my math is correct you motor can make 16 KW .

Limited with a #16 AWG armature rating.

I like to se tests on a bigger lathe.

methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2011, 10:36:05 PM »
SparWeb,


         The resistor is actually nichrome wire elements out of a 20kw furnace consisting of 4 individual elements, each element is 10.8 ohms. I put 2 sets in parallel (making 2, 5.4 ohm elements) then put those in series bringing the resistance back to 10.8 ohms.

         

         I don't have a tractor with pto or know anyone with one, I'm not real sure how I could do higher power testing without too much problems. I guess I'm gonna have to build something, put a temp sensor in the stator and let the wind take over and see what I can actually get out of it without overheating it.

         I saw your tests with the scales, pretty good. I could do something similar but I've been so busy lately its crazy and to take the time to set it all up would take too much time from things I'm already not getting done. lol

methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2011, 10:40:11 PM »
zvizdic,


     I would like to see tests on a bigger lathe too but I don't know of any around here. We have a bigger lathe but what I have found is that the bigger they get the lower the max rpm they have, our big lathe has a max of 525 rpm's.

     If ya don't mind me asking, how do you come up with the possible 16kw?

SparWeb

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2011, 11:42:12 PM »
SparWeb,
I don't have a tractor with pto or know anyone with one, I'm not real sure how I could do higher power testing without too much problems. I guess I'm gonna have to build something, put a temp sensor in the stator and let the wind take over and see what I can actually get out of it without overheating it.
I saw your tests with the scales, pretty good. I could do something similar but I've been so busy lately its crazy and to take the time to set it all up would take too much time from things I'm already not getting done. lol

Springtime is when that "honey-do" list gets pretty long isn't it?

Oh that tractor idea what just off-the-cuff.  It's a lot of work even if you do have one, and lot of trips to the farm supply store too.  Just for a few more RPM on a test.  Mine only goes up to 1000 RPM or so, and I haven't tried it either!
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Madscientist267

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2011, 02:34:34 PM »
Quote
thinking about a radial where the coils are encased in fiberglass and no iron in the stator . . . magnets on both sides of the stator might get complicated

Why not just go with a pancaked axial then?

You have freedom in what you design and build with that way, and besides, it could be 'modular'. Not enough juice, but plenty of spare torque to be had? Throw another stator at it! ;)

Quote
but I've been so busy lately its crazy

Heh, I know THAT'S right. You 'n me both... I'm bringing it on myself tho - for every project I complete, the wife comes up with 2 more, and I have 3 or 4 aspirations for each completion just for myself!

Will I EVER catch up?!?!  :o

Steve
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methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2011, 03:47:53 PM »
Madscientist267,

        NO, you will NEVER catch up!!!    but one day you will rest, don't be in any hurry to rest though.

zvizdic

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2011, 10:22:11 AM »
zvizdic,

     If ya don't mind me asking, how do you come up with the possible 16kw?

Star configuration calculation.

phase voltage x 1.732 x 1.4 = DC output

177x1.732x1.4=429 Vdc

15.65/654=0.024 A per REV.  x 1000 =24A

429V / 654rpm =0.656 v per rpm x1000 =656 VDC

656 x 24 = 15744 W  +-

Armature max for # 16 awg is 22A  it might be higher for newer insolation of K,M,C and 250 class.




« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 10:34:38 AM by zvizdic »

Janne

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2011, 06:06:44 AM »
http://www.windmolensite.be/

This guy has documented his 8.8m turbine quite nicely. With google translation it is quite readable http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.windmolensite.be%2F

Also, on my image gallery there are some build pictures of a 12m diameter home build machine, built by my late father. http://pics.ww.com/v/Janne/Windmills/12m+turbine/
There is also a 2hr+ video about the machine, the construction and the various problems encountered in building and running it. I'm in the process of translating the video with subtitles, I'll post it once finished. I'm sure it would also be quite useful, giving some pointers for anyone tackling a big DIY turbine project.



I tried doing some calculations about the reactance factor on the generator, based on the measured voltage figures vs. rpm.  It's a bit hard at least for me the get my head around the current configuration(calculations wise), where the heating load is connected with the rectifier. But it seems, if you think of the reactance about being a series inductor with an the generated EMF, it would amount to a few tens of mH's.. Which seems to became quite a big factor if you want to go up to 1200 rpm with your 12 pole generator.
The generator efficiency also seems to be a bit on the low side, so it might be a good idea to find a bigger induction motor to convert. You could also consider converting a geared motor, unless of course you have already machined /sourced the gears for the gearbox. The geared motor would only require a separate shaft and a coupling for the rotor, and be done with it.
With the current generator, I think you would need to make the pitch control act quite early to keep it under control.

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Janne

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2011, 01:06:43 PM »
First 5 parts of the video now with subtitles on youtube. If the subtitles don't show, enable them from the "cc" button on the bottom of the player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p8MkzFVM4k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIsqSQm22r0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx-vVo06hbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMz33k9YId0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VBLqplYlKM
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SparWeb

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2011, 09:14:37 PM »
Wow!
That's all I can say Janne.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2011, 08:46:37 PM »
Janne,

       Very good work, and thank you for the translation in the video's, I watched 2 before I realized what you said about the "cc" then had to go back and watch them. Very good information.

       Sorry, I haven't been able to use the internet for almost a month, technical difficulties, no longer with that company so hopefully this provider will be better.

      Thank you for the information

SparWeb

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2011, 10:55:36 PM »
If that machine was built by your father, then the handsome lad in this photo is....

http://pics.ww.com/d/388920-2/P1030060.JPG   ;)
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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SparWeb

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2011, 12:20:31 AM »
Okay, finally have things to say (maybe too many!)

Just to confirm a few things I see in your photos Janne (or rather, your father's):

250 kilograms of sand for ballast?  Wow (again) since I see it was hoisted up a bucket at a time.

The two auto/truck alternators were to excite the field of the main generator?

There are a couple of curious things about the blade hubs - hard to put my finger on it, maybe harder to express my question.  The 12m turbine has blade hubs that point radially out from the main shaft axis, while the smaller one (built by you?) has blades whose hubs are offset from the axis.  I understand the regulation of speed by the masses on the rods, but only in the geometry of hub #2 (yours).  Yet I see in the old 12m turbine photos that it had the same masses out on rods.  How was that effective?  An arm that rotates only around the centrifugal axis will give no preferred position to the mass on the arm.  Did it have some other purpose other than pitch regulation?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Janne

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2011, 03:55:57 PM »
Steven,

In the case of the 12m centrifugal governor, the masses are for centrifugal pitch regulation. The geometry is not as effective as with the hub #2 but it still works. Try to figure the distance from the mass to the rotational axis(not to the point where the blade shaft is attached, as that distance obviously stays constant) as the blade is turned, and then it should became obvious how it works.. When the arm becames parallel with the plane of rotation, then the distance to the rotational axis also is the greatest.
The centrifugal pitch mechanism is explained with more detail in later parts of the "documentary" video, but those parts I've not yet translated. The centrifugal control came about after the electric control proved too unreliable and slow.
Of the 2 alternators, one is a stock 12V unit, and it was used for maintaining the battery that ran all the controls. The other one was a modified unit, with the original regulator ditched and replaced just with a pair of brushes. The output of this modified unit was then wired to the field of the main generator. This allowed control of the main generator output by varying the excitation current fed to the small alternator, removing any need for full power converters to achieve load matching. Today, with affordable electronic controls being available I don't think such a complex construction would be justified, especially with the wound field induction motors being hard to source cheaply.


If that machine was built by your father, then the handsome lad in this photo is....


Indeed.. Notice the good taste I had for hats even back then :P
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SparWeb

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2011, 09:17:12 PM »
I drew it out, and confirmed my belief that the radial axis of pitch makes the counterbalance arms have a very weak regulating force.  Now I see why the counterbalance arms were so long.  Perhaps very little force was required (not a surprise with such nice bearings used!) that no more was needed.  Maybe the long counter-balance arms also contribute a higher moment of intertia, a factor that would contribute to stability in pitch.  Short rods would be easier to rotate leading to more pitch fluctuations.

The 12V alternator pickup from the main shaft looks like a way to maintain emergency controls on a battery, too, right?  I mention this because I have been translating the "Tuulivoima Harrastajan Opas" and already encountered quite a lot of notes about this.  Particularly the basic tips about having battery power for the safety equipment readily available; not dependent on the ground or AC from the grid (somewhat obvious now that you see it).  So this looks like an application of that principle.

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Janne

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2011, 03:43:04 PM »
Hi,

Yes the force made by the flyweights is rather small, and the return springs actually were quite wimpy in comparison. The small force was the reason why the tapered roller bearings were required for the blade shafts, to replace the brass bushings in the 1st version. The brass bushings had too much friction to work with that kind of system.
The 12V alternator was actually the primary power source for the control system, and it just had a backup "wall wart" charger for long times of no wind. So the whole control system ran off the 12V battery located at the nacelle.

Have you been translating the notes on the 1st section on the "Tuulivoimaharrastajan Opas"? I think the guidelines enlisted in there would be well worth translating and publishing in here, for anyone thinking of making a stab at these larger machines.
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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2011, 11:56:10 AM »
I have 5 or 6 pages translated so far.  Some gaps though, where certain phrases defeat me.  I also had a big laugh when I realized that a Google translation had produced a latin result!  On the same day I was using my wife's computer, she has it set up in french, so you can imagine the language mash-up on the screen!
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Madscientist267

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2011, 01:36:36 PM »
Wow that's one hell of a machine.

I finnished (LOL sorry couldn't resist) the videos, but the translations weren't working for me (CC came up with a red "!" next to it - Thinking it's an issue with the Linux version of flash player ... ? ... Might have to hit this up on a windows box just so I can get a better understanding; nobody else is complaining...  ??? ).

Either way, no language barrier was going to keep the idea that this was one serious undertaking from reaching this member of your audience!

Persistence can be a beautiful thing. ;)

Steve
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How much magic smoke it contains does !

Janne

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2011, 01:53:21 PM »
http://www.byggvindkraft.se/

More big DIY wind machines..
Site's in swedish, but even for those not understanding the language, a picture is worth a 1000 words :)
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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2011, 03:00:21 PM »
Janne,
Excellent technical website.  All the Suomen I've been learning isn't helping me with the Svenska !
Hats off to this designer for being so thorough.
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methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2011, 09:59:00 PM »
Janne,

     thanks for the useful links, interesting.

methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2011, 10:29:24 PM »
          I have some more progress, its going slower than I had anticipated though, always does.....right.

I payed a visit to a used auto parts business that some friends of mine own. They have quite a collection of used parts from all sorts of auto's, tractors, fork lift's, etc......

I went in and told them what I was looking for (as far as gears go) and they showed me a tractor which looked like a lot of work to get what I wanted (mostly because I would have to bring in my own tools and it wasn't in an easy place to get to), before I left, Tom said "I might have just what your looking for, follow me", so I followed and a few minutes later there I was standing with a huge semi transmission sitting right there in front of me. Tom said that they was going to scrap it and if I wanted the gears out of it I could have them "FREE" as long as I brought back the empty case.

So this was good because I could take it with me, get out what I wanted and take back everything else. I said "I'll take it and bring the case back in a week or 2" and he said "no hurry".

So here are some pictures of the gears I got. Using the gears I got out I can arrange many different gear ratios, the highest I could easily get would be 1:18.2  I think though that may be too high so I have a set that can get me 1:14.44 and I think that is what I am going to go with, not set in stone at this point though.

3599-0

3600-1

3601-2

3602-3

I have gears plenty strong enough for the job now, I mean they were designed to move 60,000 pounds loads and run at high rpm's for hours on end for many years and more miles than I can even imagine.

They might whine a bit but I'm not concerned with that, I have no neighbors, lol.

Madscientist267

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2011, 10:46:09 AM »
Themz some purdy pieces of hardware, yup.

Looks like a good start anyhow.

Kinda surprised tho that a semi used straight spur gears and not synchromesh... Interesting.

Steve
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methanolcat

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2011, 11:10:05 AM »
Madscientist267,

     I was surprised that they were straight cut as well but straight cut is where the brute strength is at when it comes to gears, helical cut gears aren't near as strong, but they are quieter running.  This transmission is from a 2006 semi so its not like they are out dated when it comes to manual semi transmissions. I would imagine that most if not all semi transmissions had straight cut gears, probably can't hear the transmission over the huge engine they have anyhow. I rode in some before and don't recall hearing the transmission, I'm no expert, just my opinion.

Janne, that monster mill you have, is that gearbox a 1:15 ratio?

Janne

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2011, 04:47:32 PM »
Yes it's 1:15. It was a good ratio for the 12m diameter rotor, but for 8.8m I think it's a bit too much. The main drawback from the high gear ratio is noise, things start to get noisy when approaching 3000rpm on the generator. But if you can live with the noise, running the generator up to 3000rpm would allow you to get away with a smaller unit, possibly allow you to work with the converted motor you already have.

One plausible way for noise reduction would be to use flexible rubber couplings where possible, in your construction you could at least isolate the unit from the tower and stop the noise from propagating through the tower.

I also agree on those gears, they should be plentiful with the rated torque they are. Even though the 1:15 gearbox was rated at "only" 1500Nm on the input shaft, it was the one component that never gave trouble with the 12m blade set on the mill. The biggest gears you have seem to be at least the size of the input gear on my gearbox.. That one is about 300mm in diameter / 40mm wide.







Nothing's as easy as drilling a hole in the wrong place

Janne

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Re: 25 to 30 foot diameter turbine
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2011, 11:26:45 AM »
I've finished translating the next 5 parts of the video. It discusses the centrifugal pitch control design, and also the problems encountered in the first build. If the subtitles won't show, press the CC button on youtube player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYbrorbLe18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3W3We8-g70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCrPrG9f3PA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXKkvmXidMs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkbZizJvDCI

The final parts of the video will discuss the problems with the design presented here. Available once I get around translating it :)
Nothing's as easy as drilling a hole in the wrong place