Got 3 - 24v Air 403's free but my system is 12v, can it work?

[Scott]

I was given 3 bad Air 403's and there's enough good parts to put together 1 or maybe 2 good ones.  Non have internal regulators, all that's in them is the rectifiers.  Problem is they're 24v and my small system at the cabin is 12v with all 12v lighting and tv.  I assume this wouldn't fly worth crap at 24v, it would load up to quick with the batts at 12v right?  My current mill hit the ground when a guy wire stake pulled loose and the tower folded.  I need to get something back in the air soon.

So I either have to re-wire it to 12v or change my system to 24v which would be more of a pain.  Guess I need to call Southwest Windpower to see if they can be changed.  If anyone has any advice I'm all ears. 

Btw I like the new forum.  Been a long time since I've been here.  Don't know why my post count is so low, I used to post often way back when.

[Rover]

I have an Air-X 12V.. similar to the 403. I have it mounted upside down in the corner of the interior of my shed without the blades on it. Seems to works as well there as anywhere else. It was my first windmill and I bought into the hype without doing any research, my fault, my site won't support it.

Make sure your site can support the 403, they need a lot of wind, and spin very fast to produce.

If a 24 V got dropped in my lap, as long as the coils and mags were fine, I'd just drop down the wires and rectify at the bottom of the tower, and see what it could do. Stick a Doc Wattson or other meter in line to get a good idea

If you have the capability to hook everything up for testing with some form of motor, figure out what the cut in is for 12V.

You probably won't get much out of it at 12V , but you may be able to use a slower blade set as well...never know

[Scott]

Well I called SW and they said the only way to change a 24v 403 to 12v is to buy a new stator for $300.     I'll figure something out....I hope.  Otherwise I'll put two of these together and Ebay them and build a new mill.

[Scott]

I have an Air-X 12V.. similar to the 403. I have it mounted upside down in the corner of the interior of my shed without the blades on it. Seems to works as well there as anywhere else. It was my first windmill and I bought into the hype without doing any research, my fault, my site won't support it.

Make sure your site can support the 403, they need a lot of wind, and spin very fast to produce.

If a 24 V got dropped in my lap, as long as the coils and mags were fine, I'd just drop down the wires and rectify at the bottom of the tower, and see what it could do. Stick a Doc Wattson or other meter in line to get a good idea

If you have the capability to hook everything up for testing with some form of motor, figure out what the cut in is for 12V.

You probably won't get much out of it at 12V , but you may be able to use a slower blade set as well...never know

My camp is on the NE corner of a lake that is at one of the highest elevations around, and I'm near Lake Superior.  Very high wind area, sustained winds over 20 mph are pretty much the norm, it just never stops blowing.

[Scott]

My current state of affairs.  Here's what happens when a guy wire comes loose. 

I'm bummed, that was a great tower, I could crank it up and down by myself.

[Rover]

Looks like you can mount a 403 fairly easily, I'd just mount it.

If you have a hornet style blades lying around (slightly larger than the 403's) , use em , but don't bother buying them if you don't.

 

[Scott]

I have the bigger blades on the ametek motor mill in the pic, but 1 broke when it fell.  I might be able to salvage them by shortening all three up a little as the one that broke was within a few inches of the tip. 

[Rover]

I've cut mine back before, if you can get all 3 larger than 27" each.. go for it

[Bruce S]

Scott;
 When the cut-over happened a few people's settings didn't make it so well. The Admins can fix the post issue.
Your down'ed mill. From the looks of it, I'm with Rover on this one. Cut the blades, make sure they're balanced and put that one back up in the air.

Then work on those 403's.
0.0002 worth  inflation is a bummer
Bruce S

[Rover]

Doh!  After my diatribe about my useless airx, it dawned on my that it might be of some use to you. Course since I play around with this for fun , I can't just give it to you, but I'd take the comparable 24V parts from one of yours in exchange.

Mine , in numerous experiments (and I'd have to check on it to make sure) ... has been modified
1. painted hunter green
2. slip rings removed , wires straight down tower
3. onboard controller (removed, then stomped on, then discarded)

so it will need rectification.

I forget if the head units match between the 403 and the Air-X,  etc. I'm not opposed to shipping the entire unit ground, and you can either take what you need, some of it or nothing.

Just send me back whatever parts to match what I sent, either my own back etc... up to whole mill.

I have GHurd's disease, its just accumulating dust. So there is no rush on anything either.

[Scott]

Doh!  After my diatribe about my useless airx, it dawned on my that it might be of some use to you. Course since I play around with this for fun , I can't just give it to you, but I'd take the comparable 24V parts from one of yours in exchange.

Mine , in numerous experiments (and I'd have to check on it to make sure) ... has been modified
1. painted hunter green
2. slip rings removed , wires straight down tower
3. onboard controller (removed, then stomped on, then discarded)

so it will need rectification.

I forget if the head units match between the 403 and the Air-X,  etc. I'm not opposed to shipping the entire unit ground, and you can either take what you need, some of it or nothing.

Just send me back whatever parts to match what I sent, either my own back etc... up to whole mill.

I have GHurd's disease, its just accumulating dust. So there is no rush on anything either.

Here's what I've got, 3 units all air 403 marines.  I've disassembled them and sorted the good parts.  I have 2 good stators and rectifiers that will fit in a 12v unit, the one on the right looks like new.  Your 12v stator should drop right in mine.  Easier to ship that way if you don't mind some assembly.  Appreciate the offer and will pm you my number later.  I have to run in a few minutes and won't be back until 9 or so eastern time.

[Rover]

Grin.. parts is parts... I'll try to post pics of mine tomorrow evening.  Need to go inside for a while, new dog needs attention

I'll  take apart the unit .... no biggie
FYI east coast US here, VA

[willib]

Just for giggles , your 24V 403's charging a 12V batt, should cut in sooner than a 403 charging a 24V batt.
so instead of the 403 spinning faster than imaginable to begin charging , it may start charging at a more reasonable speed.
just my thoughts

[ChrisOlson]

Just for giggles , your 24V 403's charging a 12V batt, should cut in sooner than a 403 charging a 24V batt.
so instead of the 403 spinning faster than imaginable to begin charging , it may start charging at a more reasonable speed.

It will cut in sooner, but it would be lucky to put out one amp.  Those things have to spin fast or they don't make any power at all.  And even spinning fast they don't make any power to speak of.
--
Chris

[ghurd]

I often wondered if the 24V AIR-stuff could be wired IRP for 12V and work better (for 12V).

I have GHurd's disease

You say that like it is a bad thing to have. 

[ChrisOlson]

I often wondered if the 24V AIR-stuff could be wired IRP for 12V and work better (for 12V).

I believe they are IRP from the factory.
--
Chris

[Scott]

Got one running last night.  Lots of good parts here, enough to make 2 working mills.  This one was putting out 29.6 volts no load spinning it with a cordless drill. 

The broken blade is shorter than I thought, barely 20" so I'm not going to shorten the others.  I'll hunt around for another to replace it.

[jlt]

I would just Use them At 24 volts . Put a separate 12v charge control on each battery.And then use as two separate12v banks.   

[ChrisOlson]

The broken blade is shorter than I thought, barely 20" so I'm not going to shorten the others.  I'll hunt around for another to replace it.

Scott, are you in Wisconsin someplace?  Zeus Stark at Next Step Energy in Eau Claire has 2 or 3 of those 403's on the shelf in the warehouse that have been crashed or got other problems.  He might have a good used blade.
--
Chris

[kitestrings]

Scott,

I agree with Jlt.  Unless you're using a big honkin' 12V inverrter just wire your batteriies for 24V, do a center tap for your 12V loads.  You can balance the bank very easily with one of these:

http://www.solarconverters.com/product_frame.html

'Autotransformer' is a mis-nomer.  It is really a up/down converter.  They work very well.  I may actually have one that we used when we had a lower voltage system.  Let me know if it could help.

~kitestrings

[Scott]

The broken blade is shorter than I thought, barely 20" so I'm not going to shorten the others.  I'll hunt around for another to replace it.

Scott, are you in Wisconsin someplace?  Zeus Stark at Next Step Energy in Eau Claire has 2 or 3 of those 403's on the shelf in the warehouse that have been crashed or got other problems.  He might have a good used blade.
--
Chris

I'm in the U.P. of Michigan, about 6 hours from Eau Claire.  If things work out I'll end up with both a 12v and a 24v mill by trading one of my 24v stators for a 12v.  If not I know a local house that has 4 - 403's on posts in his front yard.  They've been there forever and non of them even have blades anymore.  I need to stop by that place and talk to the owner.  Last year I bought 2 whispers, charge controllers, batteries and miles of wire from his neighbor for $600.  Ended up selling all of it for decent $$$.

[Scott]

Scott,

I agree with Jlt.  Unless you're using a big honkin' 12V inverrter just wire your batteriies for 24V, do a center tap for your 12V loads.  You can balance the bank very easily with one of these:

http://www.solarconverters.com/product_frame.html

'Autotransformer' is a mis-nomer.  It is really a up/down converter.  They work very well.  I may actually have one that we used when we had a lower voltage system.  Let me know if it could help.

~kitestrings

I've only got 2 - 6 volt batteries at my camp, just like the black ones in the picture below(these are in my camper).  I've also got 2 - 6 volt golf cart batteries sitting in my shop doing nothing, the red ones pictured.  I'm reluctant to put the two different batteries together, although they are all about the same age, 3 years or so old. 

[XXLRay]

If you don't want to switch to 24V and you can effort some losses I would use a DC-DC-Step-Down-Converter as mentioned before.

[Rover]

Chris,
"I believe they are IRP from the factory."

I don't think so, At least not the Air X series. 3 wires off the coils to the onboard (proprietary) controller.

[Rover]

Here some pics of the Airx and the magnet/coil head






Ignore the tail extension.

Scott. not so sure if this will directly swap based on the pics.

[tecker]

Just get a car battery and series in . It has to be in good shape use the one battery to run lights and the main bank to do your inverter chores

[DanB]

Lots of thoughts and ideas here.
I tend to agree with Chris O.  Running them at 12 V will stall the blades badly and produce very little energy - the reistance in the 24V stator should be about 4x that of the 12V machine.  It might work a little if you fit larger blades that turn more slowly, but I expect the stator would be getting pretty hot at 100W output.  (maybe it cools nicely though  -  dont know really)

One thought nobody has suggested I don't think....
Call the manufacturer.  Last time I purchased a stator from South West for an Air 403 it cost about $30.

[Scott]

Dan I did call Southwest, they wanted $300 for the stator 

It's back in the air as of yesterday.  Rover and I traded 12v for 24v stators.  I now have both 12v and 24v units so I can experiment with them.

high pressure sitting on us right now with little wind though

[DanB]

wow that's amazing.
I got parts over 10 years ago and the bill was thirty bucks.  I guess that's inflation!

[Scott]

These Air units really suck don't they?  I took a ride to my camp today and with 15 - 20 mph winds it did absolutely nothing!  It would spin a little in a good gust and I mean a little.  Even one of my ametek mills would've made power today.  It's coming back down this weekend and I'm putting one of my homebrews back up.  Mean while my batts are down to 11.75 with nothing charging them for the last 2 - 3 months.  Going to have to bring the generator out there to get them back up.  ARRGGGHHHHH!

Hey is Jerry still around here?  Does he still have the Jerry blades?  I used to run them on ametek mills.

[ghurd]

These Air units really suck don't they?  I took a ride to my camp today and with 15 - 20 mph winds it did absolutely nothing!  It would spin a little in a good gust and I mean a little.  Even one of my ametek mills would've made power today.  It's coming back down this weekend and I'm putting one of my homebrews back up.  Mean while my batts are down to 11.75 with nothing charging them for the last 2 - 3 months.  Going to have to bring the generator out there to get them back up.  ARRGGGHHHHH!

 
I am bookmarking this comment.
G-

[Rover]

I hate quoting myself, but I did warn ya

"I have it mounted upside down in the corner of the interior of my shed without the blades on it. Seems to works as well there as anywhere else."

You didn't think I was kidding did you?. I am sorry it isn't working for you, guess it sometimes takes more than just a poor area (my case) to get lousy results.



 

[Scott]

25 - 30 mph winds today and I have to say that thing was kickin!  Was pegging my 15 amp meter hard(need to upgrade to a 30 or better), so much so I put a jumper across it.  Winds tonight and tomorrow of 40 mph with gusts up to 60 they say!  My dump load heater may be getting a little warm. 

I'll give this thing another chance since it's quite common to have these winds here and I really don't use the camp much and when I do I don't use much juice.