Author Topic: Listeroid mounts  (Read 5743 times)

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Colaman

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Listeroid mounts
« on: September 18, 2006, 10:14:26 AM »
Looking at mounting my soon-to-arrive listeroid on a frame on resilient mounts.


Have seen and heard talk that the only - only! - way to ever - ever! mount a lister is on a couple of cubic yards of concrete. There's talk of oscillating forces causing damage to bearings or crankshafts if one uses a resilient mount to seperate all that thrashing metal from the ground. They say that the original lister design had a two tons of concrete for Good Reason and why change it now?


As usual, I beg to differ. I'll set out my reasons:



  • The lister mount design was most likely a catch-all for all ground conditions. If the manufacturer says "mount it to two tons of concrete poured in a cube" they can bet their last dollar that the thing is not going to move around, so no angry customers complaining about vibration. So now that we're here and now, with 90 years of extra design in resilient mounts that should now be able to easily do the job, sans concrete. And without the ground-pounding effects that you get with all that reciprocating mass.
  • As for bearing failure (or stress cracks in the block), I fail to see how a design that allows the block to oscillate a little with the bearings can cause extra wear or stress forces over and above a rigid block. The dynamic bearing forces applied to the block simply have to be less if the block can move a bit with the bearings. If the block's immobile, the applied forces have to go somewhere and I'm guessing that while they're trying to move the two-tons of rigid concrete under the block, they're busily flexing cranks or wearing bearings out.
  • The "It's always been this way, they must have had good reasons for it why change now?" reason irritates me.


Anyway. I've seen some nice air-mounts. They've a natural frequency of about 1.3Hz, which should dampen the 5Hz power pulses from a 6/1 by about 90%. They'll dampen the 10Hz flywheel pulses (if they're a little imbalanced) by about 96%. So I'll try a few of them under the frame, with solid bump stops to limit movement to an inch or so, in case I find a harmonic while spinning the engine up.


Thoughts?

« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 10:14:26 AM by (unknown) »

pepa

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2006, 05:57:14 AM »
hi colaman, i have very little experience with these motors but my lister-petter is mounted on a small heavy trailor with 20gal. tank and you can set a cup of coffee on the trailor, while it is running, and not splash the liquid out. the motor may not be the same type as yours but the rubber, air filled tires seem to absorb the vibration wery well. good luck with yours, pepa.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 05:57:14 AM by pepa »

RogerAS

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2006, 11:34:09 AM »



Pepa,


This engine is much different from yours. His is a replica of the old time one lung original Lister. Those engines develope massive vibrations due to the fact that they don't have a counterbalance shaft I suspect yours, and my Kubota, have. I would build a very massive base for one of those and anchor it as solid as possible. If the engine gets to "walking" around it could very easily damage the casting at the base. Having attempted to repair cast iron previously I can say it ain't fun. Possible yes. I would avoid the possiblility of damage by bolting down to something extremely heavy. These are true stationary engines. Note the lack of starting mechanism, aside from cranking those massive flywheels!


There is an online documentation of the entire process somewhere. I saw it referenced from here, but alas didn't bookmark it. The article was concerning a 2 cylinder version, but I imagine the same rules apply. I don't know if 2 tons will be needed, but I'd say the bigger the better!

« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 11:34:09 AM by RogerAS »

Shadow

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2006, 02:46:56 PM »
I agree with the original Lister specifications. You'll find all the info you need at Listerengine.com. I think they reccomend 2 feet by 3 feet block of cement as opposed to a 4 inch slab. I think they are called 'stationary' engines for a reason. They want the block of cement to become part of the engine and let the earth absorb the rest. I too have one on order and will be mounting it as suggested.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 02:46:56 PM by Shadow »

RogerAS

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2006, 04:16:47 PM »
Shadow,


Here's the forum thread about the mounting of a Lister.


http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=4afd22a1cfda248bb2ee1f4a02e7fca8&topic=808.0


Enjoy!

« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 04:16:47 PM by RogerAS »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Oil changing.
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2006, 09:01:43 PM »
I notice one of the issues that came up was access for changing oil, and how in the old days they just pumped it out from the top (but the guy hasn't seen the syringes lately).


I note that oil pumpout kits (big syringes with valves and rubber hoses) are available at marine supply stores ("chandleries") such as West Marine.  You use 'em to change the oil in the inboard engines, where you also have to pump 'em out because they're mounted 'way low in the hull to help keep the boat upright.  B-)

« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 09:01:43 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Colaman

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2006, 09:26:43 PM »
If it comes down to the big block-o-concrete , I'll do it.


But I'm trying to avoid as much vibration as possible. Of course a lister 6/1 is not the most perfectly balanced machine to start out with.....


Ok, from my vague memories of university physics many years ago :


The concrete block is an inertial dampener - bolted to the engine, it will reduce the amplitude of the vibrations. So a 500 pound engine hopping 1" up and down by itself will turn into a 5000 pound engine+block-o-concrete hopping 1/10" up and down. But it still hops up and down and the net energy imparted to the subsoil is still the same - it all has to go somewhere. It's possible that the resonance of the block is changed enough that the vibrations will not couple to the block - in that case, other things in the engine will be flexed instead.  Anyway, with a big block of concrete, the amplitude is reduced, thus the relative movement between engine and soil is lessend, so it doesn't hop around as much. Which I think is the primary goal of the block of concrete - to reduce local movement as much as possible. However, it doesn't stop your system from becoming a nice big low-frequency emitter, rattling china for a hundred yards around.


The air mounts will reduce that energy transfer to the ground by at least 90%. So at 90%, instead of a (say) five hundred pound hammer dropping a 1/8" onto the ground five times a second, you only have a fifty pound hammer instead. The energy that is not transferred to the ground is given back to the system when it's on the upswing, so the the engine will move up and down more than if it was tied to a block. How much more depends on how your engine is balanced.


Anyway, I might wind up with a hybrid system, with a small concrete block mounted on the air mounts - this should give the advantage of a larger inertial mass to lower the amplitude of the pulses (and therefore engine movement) and also the effective isolation via the airmounts, so it doesn't reverberate through my house. It also has the advantage of not having to dig a large hole and pour a heap of concrete. :-P


I'm a little concerned about ground vibration, as my house is a pole house, with nice long poles that are probably quite able to resonate nicely to the beat of a single cylinder lister.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 09:26:43 PM by Colaman »

RP

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2006, 09:38:45 PM »
"Anyway, I might wind up with a hybrid system, with a small concrete block mounted on the air mounts"


I think this is the way to go.  The block will absorb a lot of the acoustic energy that might otherwise bounce up an down the castings and damage something.  I believe any damage would not come from physical jumping up and down so much as this acoustic energy.  


You might talk to a local propane gas compnay and see if you could score some of those solid slabs they use to set the 500 gallon tanks on.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 09:38:45 PM by RP »

maker of toys

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2006, 12:33:21 AM »
Simply put, if you can somehow constrain all motion and vibration to be oscillitory in the plane of flywheel rotation, you will have a good chance of good results. If you allow the casting to get into a bell-like vibration or let some sort of torsional couple to develop, you will have a very, very good chance of very, very bad results.  this goes along with someone else's accoustic energy comment.


Why?

One test to see if a casting is cracked is to suspend it from as few points as possible, tap it, and see that it rings.  If you use a high-speed camera to watch a casting ring, you will see quite a lot of distortion in its shape and the relative position of its major features. Imagine what that does to the alignment of a spinning shaft with its bearings. . . . couple that with the gyroscopic effects of a possible  out-of-plane oscillation, and look out!


Joining large areas of dis-similar materials tends to damp vibration. . .  Hey, look! Concrete, and lots of it!


Cast iron will take a tremendous amount of compressive abuse.  It will fail quickly if bent or allowed to flex beyond a very small amount.  A casting has low fatigue resistance and fatigue leads to cracks. Concrete exhibits similar characteristics. . . and a photomicrograph of cast iron looks remarkably similar to a cross-section of concrete. (There's probably a lesson in microstructure here someplace. . .)  the easy way around this is to add more material. . .


Rigidity is good, but not enough. The support structure has to be even and well distributed. Any experienced mechanic can show you the effects of unequally torquing a head, or worse, a bearing cap) on the main bearing plane of even a stiff cast engine like the 350 GM v8. . . distortion of the bearing bores and alignment will kill an engine fast.  


concrete and shims are much cheaper than machined steel slabs. . . and wood is not suitable because it bends, expands, warps and shrinks according to its moisture content.  bricks and mortar can't take the vibration the engine would set up.  a thin slab of concrete will probably crack in the same way a brick and mortar bed would.

Hence, they make a big deal out of LOTS of concrete because it is the cheapest and most stable of the common building materials.


In summary:

 the engineers for your lister intended for it to be fixed well in place to damp the vibrations set up in the casting, and to ensure that the bearings were well supported and kept from moving relative to each other.  NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) was not the main concern!  the worst thing you can do to your lister (or machine tool) is let it get into a place where the case casting and bearing supports flex unevenly, can move relative to each other, or are unevenly supported.  particularly bad is a twist or bend that mis-aligns the bearings (causes rapid main bearing wear and can cause cracking)  and the worst is if twist or bend varies as the engine runs, because cast iron has very little fatigue resistance.


If you can make your mount very rigid and keep the high frequency belling in check,  and then decouple the very stiff structure from the rest of the universe, I imagine you will do fine.


if you just stick a vibration damping mount under each corner of the engine, I would expect the casting to break or a bearing to fail in fairly short order.


to decouple a big chunk of concrete from the earth, use the dis-similar material idea again:  backfill the hole around the concrete block with washed gravel, the more the better.  Use some sort of mesh or synthetic cloth to keep sand from infiltrating the gravel, and maybe provide a drain, and off you go. . . pea gravel might work best.


just my 20 millidollars. . . .


-Dan

« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 12:33:21 AM by maker of toys »

sPuDd

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2006, 04:41:28 AM »
Colaman,


    I live in Atherton, about 2hrs from you. I'm also looking

at buying a bunch of Lister clones for several people around

here. Where did you get yours from? Some details on the buy

would be very appreciated.


PS: I hear you can squeeze oil from a hippy. Would that count

as bio-diesel ?   :)


sPuDd..

« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 04:41:28 AM by sPuDd »

Shadow

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2006, 08:21:12 AM »
Very informative, Thank you. What would the sand  in the gravel do? I had thought about packing sand around the concrete to further absorb, but sounds like gravel would be better.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 08:21:12 AM by Shadow »

maker of toys

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2006, 11:00:40 PM »
infiltrating sand will tend to solidify the gravel, and what you want is something a little loose but still massive to absorb vibration.  


If you were to place the concrete monolith in a deep sand box (and keep all the leaves, cats and toys out of it) you would accomplish the much the same thing.  But sand or (unwashed gravel) in a backfilled hole will tend to accumulate silt, roots and loam and thus pack tight and lose effectiveness.  that's why you want the cloth. . . a cheap poly tarp, some tar/felt roofing material, or a couple of sheets of Visquine might work with sand if you want to try the cheap method.  


I believe that gravel will rip most tarps in short order, though. for gravel, try multiple sheets of weed fabric. . . or look around the next time you happen past a quarry products dealer; most of them will carry what you need to keep sand and roots out of a gravel bed. it's a common item for french drains, septic fields, etc.  I just can't seem to drag the generic name out of this chaotic skull of mine.


-Dan

« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 11:00:40 PM by maker of toys »

Colaman

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2006, 03:59:43 AM »
G'day sPuDd.


Atherton, eh? Bit cool for me in winter, I'm a tropical person really.


I got (am getting) mine from Sam Warne at warnepower.com.au


He gets JKSon branded clones in - the same ones that George B from Utterpower in the states gets. He sells the 6/1 and 12/2 and 5kW / 10kW heads for them.

The 6/1 is $1600 , the 5kW head is $660, for freight, he says he normally charges $500 up front, and then refunds the difference.


The JKSon engines are supposedly in the upper quality segment of the indian listeriods, and take all of the standard lister bits (as opposed to say, a GM-90). Comes with a rebuild kit included.


I asked about a pulley for it and he has a V belt pulley for a princely sum of about $250 or so, but I wanted a poly-V (flat) belt and have found a 10" one for $100 that should get the generator spinning at 50Hz at about 630RPM. (From a company called Naismith in Victoria. Blackwoods is a dealer if there's one nearby.)


Prices are alright - I think - it's a bit hard to tell really. Guys in the states seem to get them for about $1000 or so. Seeing he seems to be the only guy importing them, and I didn't feel like importing one either, its a good enough deal for me.


Hope this helps! :-)

« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 03:59:43 AM by Colaman »

sPuDd

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2006, 04:27:04 AM »
Thanks Colaman,


    I know where to start now :)


sPuDd..

« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 04:27:04 AM by sPuDd »

DanG

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2006, 07:31:14 AM »
Geo-textile fabric - pin-punched polyproplyene sheet is used alot for gardening. About now would be a good time north of the equator to search garden centers for seasonal close outs on their deluxe cloth, I picked up $40 400sqft rolls for $7 a few seasons ago, but this is still lightweight compared to highway construction products. I'd avoid the fiberglass based ones since the binders go away after a while leaving glass fluff instead of a barrier.


Another good alternative would be the material they use for the silt fences used everywhere nowadays for erosion control.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 07:31:14 AM by DanG »

hayfarmer

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2011, 08:56:15 AM »
never heard of this.any body know the pro's and con's of listeroids .must be living under a rock. ???

hayfarmer

BigBreaker

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Re: Listeroid mounts
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2011, 10:23:49 AM »
The main con is an EPA ban in the US.  They are very hard to get now.