Author Topic: Shurflo or air for well water?  (Read 13671 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DualFuel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Country: us
Shurflo or air for well water?
« on: May 29, 2011, 08:59:33 PM »
I'm looking for ideas or opinions about setting up our well pump. I am familiar with the batteryless Shurflo pump using a Real Goods pump controller and two 135watt panels configured for 24volts. That system is super simple if one has the dough. I have a Shurflo 12volt pump. I don't have the extra panels to devote to the pump.
 My panels and house, etc. are at the top of a hill and the well is at the bottom, some 100feet away from each other.
 I was trying to figure out a way to run 12volt power down to the pump. Seems like a long run.
 The other idea I am much more familiar with is piping air down to the well and using an airlift setup. I guess the Amish do this.
 Another thought would be using a windpowered connecting rod, to provide provide power to a position pump.
 Not sure where to go yet.
 How do you transmit solar panel power over a hundred feet to a 12volt pump?
DF

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2011, 09:40:25 PM »
I guess this one falls on me.

First, what is the pump for?
Myself, I would HATE not being able to make coffee (or flush the toilet) because the last 3 days had no wind or sun.

2nd, I did a lot of math on this air vs 12V well pump situation.
Air wins in the efficiency department.

3rd, The problem with air, used with solar or wind, is there are no decent quality and reasonably priced 12V compressors (worth the shipping cost) that can deal with volume AND pressure.

Anyway.
What if you need water when it is not windy and sunny?
What if it is windy and sunny (mostly windy is the issue) and you do not need water?

The Amish style air powered water pumps are quite reliable, repairable by someone with common sense and a repair kit, and require no pressurized storage tank (in fact, a pressurized storage tank is specifically and hardily discouraged).
The company making most of the pumps is a semi-major name brand, though I can not think of it at the moment.

My opinion is the ultimate route is to use the wind and solar electical power, stored in a battery bank, to compress air (110~145 PSI) for an air powered well pump.
And if you can figure it out in a cost effective fashion, I sure would like to hear about it!

G-

PS-
"How do you transmit solar panel power over a hundred feet to a 12volt pump?"
With wire.  Very big wire.
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

rossw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
  • Country: au
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2011, 11:31:43 PM »
Quote
"How do you transmit solar panel power over a hundred feet to a 12volt pump?"
With wire.  Very big wire.

Or... thin wire and a step-down transformer and run it off your inverter.


I have a not dissimilar problem. My land slopes fairly well. I have a 105,000 litre tank at the bottom of the hill, and another at the top where the house is.
When I originally built, I'd expected to have mains power and had provided for cable (16 sq mm) to go to the bottom tank, along with a 40mm poly pipe.
There is 150' vertical difference, and 350' horizontal.

When the mains power fell through, I had to go for a smaller pump. A shurflo 9300 series (from memory) could make the head pressure required, ran from 12 or 24V at a couple of amps, and could run down the original 16sq mm cable. The wire was expensive. If I'd known at the time, I would have run a much thinner cable (1.5 or 2.5 sq mm) (12 or 14 AWG), run 240V AC down to the bottom tank and a transformer/rectifier. The transformer would have far less than the incremental cost of the wire.

The shurflo however was an expensive mistake. It worked well for a few years but then the seal let go. Anecdotal evidence suggests this is common - to the point it's *EXPECTED*.
Kits to refurb are more than half the price of the whole assembly and carry no warranty. The price of the whole pump here in Australia is stupid money at well over a thousand bucks.

I replaced it with a "cheap" ebay deep bore pump. Beautifully made in Italy, made of stainless and brass, designed for deep bores. Runs on AC, so my inverter has to run it now, and it takes 10 times the power the shurflo did - but it moves about 15 times as much water, so I figure I'm better off in the end.

The extra reliability of an induction motor, vs a DC motor that uses brushes and stuff and *MUST* wear out... the extra flow... and the price difference (the borepump including delivery cost me 20% the price quoted for another shurflo!) - I'd never go the dc pump route again.

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2011, 12:49:55 AM »
"Or... thin wire and a step-down transformer and run it off your inverter"
and
"batteryless Shurflo pump using a ... pump controller"
What inverter?

I totally understand and 101% agree with what you are saying, especially about the specific brand name on the pump.
RG is even worse IMHO.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

TrackerJack

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 77
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2011, 12:57:49 AM »
It seems to me that you have some money to remedy the problem, so why not get two smaller 12 volt panels. With two 80 sharps tracking and a SF 9300, I can pump 2,000 gal. in a day from 120 down.
Two 10 watt would give you water.

DualFuel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Country: us
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2011, 08:13:54 AM »
Thank you for the replies.
 After further study, I found my air lift idea to be untenable. The well is only 10ft deep and the head is in excess of 40ft. Oops.
 I am sorry to hear about the Shurflo. They are a very common pump here. I have several scrounged from RVs.
 I have considered using the predescessor to the Delco 10SI, spun by my Yanmar. Couldn't I run the three phase from the stator down to the well, then rectify and regulate it down there for use with the Shurflo? (sorry to change the constraints of the problem, but this is some serious brainstorming.) I could use my inverter, but don't want to if it can be helped.
 I am afraid. Afraid of non repairable electronics. I have a collection of inverters with the magic smoke already gone from them.
 Eventually, we will be pumping the water 900 linear feet with a vertical head of around 50 feet.

 The dedicated solar panel idea isn't off the boards. My best friend has one and fills a 1500gallon tank with his in one day with a 50ft head to boot! Right now though, I wanted to get a grasp of what is out there.
 
 For right now its going to be the old Montegomery Wards 3hp gasoline water pump, filling a tank, at my house. Thats an evil solution, but will fill the billl.
 



DualFuel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Country: us
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2011, 08:20:00 AM »
I do have an insane but simple option. I could operate a piston pump with a 300ft horizontal sucker rod. I have the metal, and the foot valve. On top of the hill, the wind never stops, so a wind powered sucker rod is entirely doable. I say its insane because normally folks don't have the freedom or space to build such structures.

TrackerJack

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 77
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2011, 08:59:11 AM »
At 300 feet, are you sure that this will not disrupt the migration route of the arctic yak.

DualFuel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Country: us
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2011, 09:17:28 AM »
Dear Jack,
Haha! ;D Yaks are subjected to lead-based repellent.

zap

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
  • There's an app for that
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2011, 09:41:40 AM »
At 300 feet, are you sure that this will not disrupt the migration route of the arctic yak.
Didn't Myth Busters do something on that?  Wasn't it plausible but only with an El Nina year AND the sparrows never made it to Capistrano?

Actually, I kinda like the idea.

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2011, 11:08:19 AM »

 After further study, I found my air lift idea to be untenable. The well is only 10ft deep and the head is in excess of 40ft. Oops.
 

The Amish use a air powered diaphram pump.
I will try to get a brand name for you soon.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

hydrosun

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 399
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2011, 02:38:41 PM »
After replacing several shurflo and other dc submersible pumps that had the diaphram fail and destroy the motor I'd never go that route again. What has worked the best is using an inverter to power the smallest (1/3 hp SQ) submersible pump made by grundfos. It has a slow start and efficient so a smaller inverter can handle it. and the cost was less than for the shurflo.
 A water pump with it's own solar panels seems a waste of resources. It's hard to exactly match how much water is needed. If it is part of the bigger household system any surplus power can be used for other things. The water can be pumped to a pressure tank or a storage tank up the hill.  The worst system I've seen had the water pumped from a shallow well to a low  tank and then later a pressure pump pumped to a pressure tank.  Two inefficient pumps and the first one pumping when the batteries full but little lift accomplished nothing.
Chris

DualFuel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Country: us
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2011, 04:48:49 PM »

 Are these the heinous Shurflos that fail?
 I have never had any problems with them, so far. This style fills a 1500 gallon tank in a day. The worst thing I have seen yet is the plastic housing cracking during the winter. Freezing.
 I might have $50 into three of these.
 I like Grundfoss, but have never been able to get them to work on MSW inverters.

 Air diaphragm pump. Hmmm. I am only familiar with the air powered vane pumps the mines used here. I also cannot, for the life of me, find an image of a horizontal sucker rod pump either. Another case of not knowing what the name of the Rose is, I suppose.
DF

rossw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
  • Country: au
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2011, 06:29:38 PM »
Are these the heinous Shurflos that fail?

Mine was one of these:


This is what the commutator looked like:


And what was left of the brushes:


And the whole unit, in a collar (to force it to self-cool):

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2011, 01:27:52 AM »
"Air diaphragm pump"
Maybe someone knows more about it from the description.
I do not really understand how it works.  Best guess is it has 2 stages?

They make a "Pssst ... Poof" sound at the well head.
Flush the toilet, then immediately turn the faucet on full blast makes "Pssst .. Poof.. Pssst .. Poof.. Pssst .. Poof".
Run a decent stream out of a faucet is "Pssst ...... Poof........... Pssst ...... Poof ............ Pssst ...... Poof".
Running a short duration trickle of water to rinse out a coffee cup may not make any noise, because there is enough volume stored in the pump to do it (there is no storage tank).  Or it may do a single "Pssst ... Poof".

It is NOT a fast cycle like a typical diaphragm pump.  Guessing the fastest I ever heard one go is maybe 75 "Pssst ... Poof" cycles per minute?

The end user would have no idea the faucet, garden hose, toilet, or shower was not a city water connection.  Water flow does not pulsate (that I ever noticed).

I got in touch with a friend who has one, and he has no idea what the brand name is.  He will try to find out.  I think there are 2 name brands making them.
His has been in use without ANY maintenance or repairs for about 8 years? (a little less than since he built the house)
Pretty sure there were 8 people living there for a few years.  6 of them girls under 25.  No chauvinistic implications implied, because mathematically girls under 25 use a LOT more water than guys!  ::)  Occupancy decreased as marriages increased. 
And it is not uncommon to have 20 or 30 people there for dinner (lots of dishes to wash, lots of 'flushing' after dinner).
That's a LOT of water since it was installed.

I would call it a Very reliable pump, if it can be efficiently rigged with the available resources.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

BigBreaker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2011, 11:03:29 AM »
Another reason to opt for an air pump is that compressed air is a nice RE resource to have for lots of other things.  Compressed air has high power density and air motors are really simple, reliable and repairable.  One big, slow compressor can run lots of small motors at high speed or high torque.  Controlling an air motor isn't so hard and the motors self cool from the expanding air.  In fact frosting is probably the bigger issue!

Compressed air tanks need testing but otherwise will hold their air for years.  Keep a backup compressor or two on hand and you are golden.

DualFuel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Country: us
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2011, 08:26:38 AM »
I agree about air. I have a slight fetish for collecting air compressors. Its nearly as bad as my collection of engines. We have had air available continuously at the house in town for 5 years now. Its become a given, like light bulbs or running water. Wife got upset when I tried to shut it off last week to save power.
The thing that amazes me, is that all the air power equipment is available for real cheap here. Its all off the shelf and usually surplus or scrap.
 The multiple source idea appeals to me. In town, we run a small compressor off the inverter to fill the main tanks. This, when the battery bank is full, and the power would otherwise be wasted.
 Going back to Ghurd's earlier comment, about pumping water when its not needed, well... that was part of the plan. I am fortunate enough to be able to dig a pond if I like and I could store my excess in the pond.
We'll get there.
Did anybody ever transmit power long distance via car alternator? I still think about de coupling the stator portion from the diodes and regulator.

DualFuel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Country: us
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2011, 10:32:33 PM »

I think this might be the pump Ghurd described.
Plenty of good ideas here. I am betting, now that I know what to look for I will find one of these laying around the mines. I fear the mines would have much bigger equipment then I'd need, still...
The next thing this reminds me of is operating a piston pump with an air brake diaphragm.
I do have a 6" double acting air cylinder, but it has a five foot stroke. I am just not sure about that. I keep picturing some sort of walking beam type Newcomen water pump.
Finally, I wonder if there isn't some simple way to convert the shurflo to air.
DF

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2011, 11:15:27 PM »
I got contact info on who to ask, but today is 40 days after Easter.  Long story.
Maybe more relevant info in a few days.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

just-doug

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2011, 08:22:08 PM »
i have a similar setup.13 foot improved spring,60feet of lift to cabin,14 foot vertical to top of 3000 gallon storage tank.what i use is a sureflo generic 2088 pump .power is 12 volt off cabin batteries.this is fed through #12 romex a cross top of ground to spring.three  50 foot pieces wirenut-ed together.150 feet total.pump is controlled by two 12  volt auto accessory relays,the type used for driving lights.the first relay is triggered by a hf 5  or 10 watt solar panel. the second relay is triggered by a Lents low water switch.one relay senses sunlight the other water.the surface pump is mounted on a floating plateform.the only problem is when the platform fangs on the hole and the pump gets submerged.the pump is rated for 7 amps and works on a 5 amp fuse nicely.

DualFuel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Country: us
Re: Shurflo or air for well water?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2011, 09:07:15 PM »
Doug! Awesome! There is hope for this scheme yet then. I wish you could take some pictures. You are running 150 feet of #12 wire? I have several spools of number 8 and number 10 copper. I suppose I better try it. Nope, I know I will have to try it.