Author Topic: Supermileage Projects  (Read 25013 times)

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XXLRay

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2011, 02:40:16 AM »
Apparently 3 hours isn't enough to compensate for 4 "blue screens of death" by our main cad computer :(  I had to manually click over 1000 lines twice, in order and not any extras... which all ended in vain after the blue screens.
Ever thought of switching to linux? Ubuntu is an easy to install and use Distribution. You could install it as dual boot option and EMC is a very approved CNC tool box.

taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2011, 04:58:59 PM »
The finished sprocket  ;D








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Ever thought of switching to linux? Ubuntu is an easy to install and use Distribution. You could install it as dual boot option and EMC is a very approved CNC tool box.

If it were my computer, then maybe.  I doubt any freeware would be able to do any complex 3d objects or 4/5 axis machines.



DanG

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2011, 07:16:32 PM »
and the first time a nervous student who drank too much Jolt cola pops the clutch.. . ?

taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2011, 08:14:32 PM »
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and the first time a nervous student who drank too much Jolt cola pops the clutch.. . ?

The first time we drove the car, we dropped the clutch several times... and it was foggy, 2 AM, and very dark...

If you think about it, there are a whole bunch things that can slip or break when you dump the clutch... many of which we have broken before.  An  "*"  for all the things we have broken...
The list of things that can break include:

the connecting rod
the key on the crankshaft  *
the key on the flywheel *
the centrifugal clutch may slip 
the chain may break *
the belt may slip
the pulley may fracture or bend ( ours is good for over 700 lbs of tension on the belt )
the axle may bend *
the axle may twist *
the ceramic bearings may shatter *
the teeth on the clutch may shear *
the bolts holding the clutch plates may shear *
the hub may break
the bicycle spokes may snap
the rim may bend
the tire could just spin like the calculations says it should and blow out the tire ***
the engine mounts can bend *
the frame can snap
your left hand drive bicycle hub may break *


The bolt pattern should be fine, as it is 1/4" thick aluminum with a 3.196" diameter and 5/16" bolts.  The previous design has this, and it withstood the massive forces of past cars, some of which had 5-6 hp and super complicated transmissions.  Interestingly, we had (4) 8-32 socket head cap screws on a 1" diameter pattern on the clutch last year, which held up, but the (4) 10-32 flat head bolts on the 1.75" circle sheared off.  I guess the 180ksi cap screws were a lot better than the cheap bolts at Valu homecenter ::)

The sprocket is made out of one of the strongest aluminums made (7075 -T651), which is heat treated and stress relieved.

 


XXLRay

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2011, 02:49:13 AM »
If it were my computer, then maybe.  I doubt any freeware would be able to do any complex 3d objects or 4/5 axis machines.
EMC supports up to 9 axes and the bluescreens of your installation show that there are problems with commercial products, too. Anyway it was just a suggestion and if you are not interested I will not try to proselytize you :)

taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2011, 10:35:16 AM »
I have heard of it before, and I may try it out on my own mini mill at my house, because I need some cam software.

Today we are going to sandblast it and clear coat it so it doesn't corrode.  We will probably leave the teeth alone.

taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2011, 10:26:57 PM »
While in Canada, I ran into a person driving his high end model RC boat in Burlington.  After asking him what battery he was running, he pulled it out and put it in my hands.  To my astonishment, it was the brand new 65c / 130c  11.1v 3 cell Thunderpower Lipo battery, exactly the same battery I have in our new budget request.  It weighs only 4 ounces and puts out 84 A continuous and 169A peak and charges at 12c (5 minutes :) ).  It was the 1300 mah version.  We will be getting the 4 cell pack.

Tomorrow we are going to show off the car in the annual club fair.  Hopefully we can sign up 60+ people and maybe actually get 10 of them to stay for the year.  Last year we got ~ 6-7 new people to stay for at least a month.


taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects - oil
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2011, 10:33:25 PM »
I looking for oil to put in supermileage car.  Obviously we are looking for extremely low viscosity oil, but I wouldn't want to go too thin.  0w-20 would be my choice, but they also make 0w-10 for a few bucks more.

Since our engine doesn't get real hot, a lot of our running make occur in the cold range of the viscosity.


Bruce S

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Re: Supermileage Projects - oil
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2011, 09:22:12 AM »
I looking for oil to put in supermileage car.  Obviously we are looking for extremely low viscosity oil, but I wouldn't want to go too thin.  0w-20 would be my choice, but they also make 0w-10 for a few bucks more.

Since our engine doesn't get real hot, a lot of our running make occur in the cold range of the viscosity.


If you're looking for non-standard oil that is super slippery look into the oil they use in the higher end treadmill trannys. That stuff also super $$$ 16fluid ounces can set you back 150.USD. I used to have some when I worked on the medical grade treadmills, thinner the 3in1 and would hold up to gears nearing the 200F mark and still not break down.
I'll check with my old employer and see if they have the part# and specs.
Might take a while for them to answer, so don't hold your breath for me to come back with the specs.
Cheers;
Bruce S
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taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2011, 06:24:56 PM »
We ended up asking for some Mobil 0w-20.  We might end up with a mini oil pump on our engine for our new design.

ruddycrazy

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2011, 06:07:40 AM »
Don't ask me what grade of synthetic oil that was used but awhile ago I was repairing gearbox's for the oil industry where they were used out in the desert an the oil was said not to brake down at 120C or more. All I do remember was 'oils ain't oils'  so go talk with a castrol oil guy and they will sort you out.

Cheers Bryan

taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2011, 05:47:45 PM »
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All I do remember was 'oils ain't oils'  so go talk with a castrol oil guy and they will sort you out.

Talking to an expert is probably a good idea.  Once we get the engine running, we can try different weights to see if we can find a difference.  I have read about racing go-karts who have done some nice studies with various modifications.  IIRC, it was somewhere around 5% near 5k rpm... but that would mean 50-100mpg....

http://www.facebook.com/AlerionSupermileage?sk=photos

Here is a good smathering of some really good cars (some getting 8000 mpg on pump gas).  There are a few designs in there under the Euro 2011 photos that I feel are nearing perfection and I would like to build.  Due to the fact that it is so early in the year, I probably shouldn't disclose which one I like.... this thread shows up instantly on any google search of "supermileage"

taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2011, 06:09:32 PM »
We tested the treadmill efficiency curve again, only this time we had a real rpm readout, which greatly improves our accuracy....

We ended up maxing out the mill and the treadmill (kind of...).  With all 3000W of light bulbs hooked up, we maxed out at 19 amps @ 91 volts , 4000 rpm, and 3.52 ft*lbs of torque... which means 2000 watts in and 1730 watts out, a new record...

Anyways, we ran at 100 rpm intervals from 500-4000 rpms with 6 bulbs and 10 bulbs.  By the time we were done with the 10, the motor had been running for ~20 minutes and the temp was read at 250 F..... which we then watched some smoke come out of it.  The 6 bulbs run came after that, after we let it cool down back to 120F.  It didn't seem like there was any damage.  The brushes were sparking pretty good too at 2000 watts ;D

As you can see, the efficiency test was a good workout for the cnc machine, probably a 10 hp spindle:



So, the results ended up being very similar between runs, but the efficiency curve was not smooth... or even a continuous function, which I thought was super odd.  It did hit a natural frequency around 1800 rpm, which might explain some of it, but it doesn't really make sense.  The voltage on the other hand ended up being perfectly linear with the rpm under load :).  Can any one explain this?


« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 06:12:02 PM by taylorp035 »

taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects - battery needed
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2011, 10:30:35 PM »
I have already bought the battery I want to use, but I want to get an alternate pack just in case the officials don't like the one I have.

Here are the specs I need:

less than or equal to 1400 mah
12v rated
not lithium
put out at least 300 watts or ~15-20 C  minimum
weight is obviously important, else I could just have two separate batteries.


And here are my new 2012 rules:

Quote
B5.1 Batteries
Batteries can be carried in each vehicle but are limited to starting systems, ignitions, instrumentation, and the like. Batteries must in no way be capable of powering the vehicle.
B5.1.1 All batteries must be securely and rigidly mounted to the vehicle. Note: Batteries are not considered to be ballast for the purpose of meeting the required driver weight (Rule B1.7)
B5.1.2 All battery cells or battery packs (groups of battery cells) based on lithium chemistry, must be separated from the driver by a firewall and protected from any heat sources
B5.1.3 Battery packs based on Lithium Chemistry
a. Must be commercially manufactured items.
b. Must have over voltage, under voltage, short circuit and over temperature protection.
c. Must be presented at Technical Inspection with markings identifying the battery for comparison to the manufacturer's datasheet or other equivalent documentation proving the pack and supporting electronics meet all rules requirements.

Here are the full rules, batteries are in section B5.
http://www.sae.org/images/cds/selfservice/316525358_2012%20Super%20Rules%20Final%20913011.pdf

My goal is to have 1 battery, so we cut all of the complexity and running around the rules so much.


A place where I can buy them would be best (a website).  Even though I would be happy buying cells from you guys, its a lot better I don't.


Bruce S

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2011, 09:29:34 AM »
Here's the site we bought updated battery packs from for our velomobile.
Came very professionally built, and still working.
I'm including the link where you can decide on which battery Chemistry ,
it should help as the also list the weights of individual cells.
Hope it helps.
http://www.powerstream.com/Custom.htm
Bruce S
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SparWeb

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2011, 01:04:15 AM »
We tested the treadmill efficiency curve again, only this time we had a real rpm readout, which greatly improves our accuracy....
...
So, the results ended up being very similar between runs, but the efficiency curve was not smooth... or even a continuous function, which I thought was super odd.  It did hit a natural frequency around 1800 rpm, which might explain some of it, but it doesn't really make sense.  The voltage on the other hand ended up being perfectly linear with the rpm under load :).  Can any one explain this?

I wish I could say...  I wouldn't expect a treadmill motor to do this.   My motor-conversions with PM's do, but at much much lower frequencies (~15Hz) so I doubt the phenomenon you see is anything like what I have.

Quote
The sprocket is made out of one of the strongest aluminums made (7075 -T651), which is heat treated and stress relieved.

But I doubt you got your parts heat treated after machining.  If not, then residual stresses from the factory mill process will not be balanced in your part.  You have lots of "outside" material on one side, and lots of "inside" material on the other side.  This could cause your wheel to "cup". 

I also fear a problem with the neutral axis of the "spokes".  Have you compared it to the centerline of the rim?  Just by eye, because the scale is hard to guess, the belt froms a plane on the middle of the rim which is offset by 1/2" from the plane of the hub, and the spokes are somewhere in between.  If you have lots of 3D CAD at your disposal, why not run a FEA on the wheel and see how much it flexes under 100% torque...  Does it "cup"?  My greatest fear is that it won't take much deflection before the spokes become unstable.  Your FEA package may not be advanced enough to predict instability, but if it can provide an estimate of linear deflections you'd be better off knowing.

Alternatively, you can do a load test on a heavy table, measuring the deformations that way.

I don't remember right now, but 7075 may be one of the varieties with a relatively poor strength in the ST grain direction.

That's all from Mr. Negative for now.
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taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2011, 05:48:25 PM »
Thanks Sparweb, it isn't too often I get constructive criticism.

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I wish I could say...  I wouldn't expect a treadmill motor to do this.   My motor-conversions with PM's do, but at much much lower frequencies (~15Hz) so I doubt the phenomenon you see is anything like what I have.

I have concluded that this error was due to the floor scale after the setup hit the natural frequency.  A shift of two increments (0.4 lbs on a scale accurate to 0.2 lbs), was probably what caused the mess.  I basically now have a straight line for a regression that I can put into my engine efficiency calculator.

Quote
I also fear a problem with the neutral axis of the "spokes".  Have you compared it to the centerline of the rim?  Just by eye, because the scale is hard to guess, the belt froms a plane on the middle of the rim which is offset by 1/2" from the plane of the hub, and the spokes are somewhere in between.  If you have lots of 3D CAD at your disposal, why not run a FEA on the wheel and see how much it flexes under 100% torque...  Does it "cup"?  My greatest fear is that it won't take much deflection before the spokes become unstable.  Your FEA package may not be advanced enough to predict instability, but if it can provide an estimate of linear deflections you'd be better off knowing.

Under 700 lbs of load from the belt, the sprocket deforms very little.  As for "cupping", I did observe this in my FEA, which though many changes in the design, I eliminated almost all of it.  The large 3/8" radius connecting the teeth to the flange and the spokes helps this a lot.  The final testing showed a max stress of ~20-25 ksi, depending on the location of the force.  The large flange also helps distribute the load over all of the spokes, not just closest ones.  The use of a pocket in the spokes significantly increased the stiffness of the sprocket.  The good thing is that the tire will slip and the spokes should break well before we hit 700 lbs of tension.  The downside is that the shock loads from the single cylinder engine are hard to estimate.  We ended up multiplying everything by 8 for a saftey factor.  The actual saftey factor is probably less than 1.5.

Quote
Alternatively, you can do a load test on a heavy table, measuring the deformations that way.
The engine mount will probably bend more in the car than anything else.  I watched the engine move almost an inch during our first test drive.

A quote often used in supermileage:  "If it ain't broke, its too heavy."  This is one reason why a few practice laps in a bumpy parking lot is such a good idea.



We have been making good progress else where on the car.  The are now at least 5 engine designs going on right now.  The idea of a turbo has been thought by almost every supermileage team ever... but finding one that does the job (quick spool up on a 150 cc or less engine) is impossible to find.  We plan on ordering one that we found (the exact name must be kept a strict secret), which is the exact size we were looking for.

The dyno data is coming in too.  With our two new adjustable carburetors and an AFR gauge, we have been able to test efficiency vs AFR with the same throttle position and load.  We have tested all the way from 11:1 up to 19:1.  The stock engine really doesn't like anything above 18:1, but we have found a general increase in efficiency when compared to an increase in AFR.  The stock carb runs fairly rich, at about 12.5:1, depending on power output.  Since our engine only runs for very short periods of time, we can get away with the lean mixtures.  If you tried this for extended periods of time, this could cause something in the engine to fail.

We also had a new record for power output.  Measured at 21 amps at 108 volts = 2268 watts or about 3.57 hp at the shaft running on 87 octane.  This is also a new power record for the treadmill motor, as I have a video of the brushes going solid blue several times during the ~10 second run.  On iso-octane and some tweaks to the over sized carb, we could probably get 4.5 hp.  EFI would help even more.


And for all those people who wonder if a crazy new spark plug will increase their efficiency.... we found changing our old one with a few dozen hours on it (and had been gaped with a screw driver by eye) for a brand new E3 plug increased power and efficiency by ~5%.  That teaches us not to mess with the spark plug and to clean the things out after we run our super rich runs.


Our wheels this year have arrived too.  They will have 1/2 the weight of the old ones (tire+rim+spokes+tube).  We also will have identical hubs, so we can do quick changes of the tires, which many of our competitors use.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 06:18:33 PM by taylorp035 »

ghurd

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2011, 08:59:50 PM »
isn't too often I get constructive criticism.

Really?
Go figure!

In case you didn't notice, you are one of the hands-on experts in this kind of stuff around here (IMHO).
G-
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taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2011, 10:28:15 PM »
Quote
In case you didn't notice, you are one of the hands-on experts in this kind of stuff around here (IMHO).
I feel like I'm one of the few engineering students who have a genuine interest in making things the best (my windmills, my SMV car, generators, ect..).  My engineering knowledge is certainly not complete yet, as I am betting Sparweb has asked me a question or two in his last reply that I can't answer very well (or at all).  Since I have worked so much with the theory on fuel efficiency for my car, not many people are willing to keep up with it.

Quote
isn't too often I get constructive criticism.

Really?
Go figure!

Well, I guess I mean I get more of it from my adviser for the car and a few team mates.  Else, no one else wants to get sucked into our massive project....

You guys on here always answered my questions when I asked for opinions, especially before I understood most of this stuff.  Some times I would go do my idea anyways, as long as it only required some wood and some elbow grease ;D  Prime example was that vertical axis windmill that looked like an Adirondack chair...  by far my biggest windmill failure considering the amount of time that went into that.


SparWeb

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2011, 12:06:58 AM »
... that vertical axis windmill that looked like an Adirondack chair... 

Oooo  missed that one!  Ha - my vawt flop was the same, only fiberglass.  About a year wasted...

Moving right along...  Good you checked this stuff already.  That's what I was driving at, mostly.  A run-of-the-mill FEA will not do the buckling of the webs...  20-25 ksi is getting pretty high.  Anyway if service loads are much lower than that you're in great shape.  Hard to believe that such a slender looking sprocket will do.  A few hand calcs...  100 Lb tension, 6 inch radius (sorry don't remember the real number) and 400 RPM... yup all 3 to 4 horsepower accounted for.  Safety factor of 8...  go shave another 1/16" off those spokes!

You should google that quote about "broke/heavy" parts...  rings a bell, as an old adage from a pioneer of auto racing.

How about this one:  "Simplicate and add more lightness".  A favourite of mine, from Bill Stout, designer of the Ford Trimotor (1930's era airplane).
It probably came out as a frustrated response to a designer's proposal to add more complicated heavy parts to solve a problem.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Bruce S

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2011, 11:17:21 AM »
taylorp035;
I actually have a more sinister plan  ;D
While you work on getting this to be the TOP DAWG I'm taking notes of what you have done.
Once you win I'm going to steal the plans and convert it to run on Alky  :P
Then I'm going to build a VAWT take the wings off since we can't run "mills" in St. Louis -- YET--
Power my entire house and sell the rest back to the grid for a profit.  :D

Just sayin'
Bruce S
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RP

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2011, 11:42:18 AM »
The idea of a turbo has been thought by almost every supermileage team ever...

Racers use the smog pumps (belt drive air compressors) from large truck engines as superchargers on go-karts.  At least there's no spool up delay and you can get 10-20 psi boost pressures.

Google "smog pump supercharger" for examples.

taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2011, 09:17:01 PM »
Quote
Safety factor of 8...  go shave another 1/16" off those spokes!
  Factor of saftey of 8, assuming a constant average torque from the engine.  In reality, there are 4 cycles, and the torque is very peaky during the power stroke, so I multiplied by another 2.

Quote
I actually have a more sinister plan  Grin
While you work on getting this to be the TOP DAWG I'm taking notes of what you have done.
Once you win I'm going to steal the plans and convert it to run on Alky  Tongue
Then I'm going to build a VAWT take the wings off since we can't run "mills" in St. Louis -- YET--
Power my entire house and sell the rest back to the grid for a profit.  Cheesy

I had a HUGE grin on my face while reading this.


Quote
Racers use the smog pumps (belt drive air compressors) from large truck engines as superchargers on go-karts.  At least there's no spool up delay and you can get 10-20 psi boost pressures.

Google "smog pump supercharger" for examples.

That would be a good small supercharger.   Other than it is a supercharger rather than a turbo... else, I could possible make it a hybrid, by having a clutch on it so the supercharger runs it for the first second, getting it up to speed, and then it could disengage and use a turbo propeller to spin it for the rest of the burn.  It would be massively complex and difficult to get it to be efficient, but it would be really really cool.

I guess instead of a belt to initially spin it up, I could use a generator / motor combo to spin it up.  After one second, a relay could be flipped and the circuit could be broken so there is no more drag.

The other plus side to this is that it would spin at a much lower rpm (not 250k rpm like a tiny turbo.....).  This would be really easy and probably lighter weight.  It would also kinda "pre -spool" while the starter motor is engaged (could be made so that doesn't happen too).

« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 09:22:34 PM by taylorp035 »

Bruce S

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2011, 09:15:11 AM »
MAYBE there's a different route...
Since you're in school AND you have metal working equipment...
I believe that it would be a worthwhile effort to have a go at the Tesla turbines.
They scale up nicely are not really that hard to build, people on the instructables website are build them out of card board and they work pretty well. Not to mention the WOW factor.
High-speed unit for sure but the output they have for the weight is pretty awesome.
One of the constants is that the more complex you make it the more MURPHY is going to show up.
IF going beyond normal aspirated engines, for the weight to psi increase I lean towards the turbo my messing around with my old diesel 3L and a trip to the local grease-n-go helped solidify this.
The biggest thing I've found was matching the turbo to the engine, THIS made a big difference is drive-ability for me.
To be honest though, if I've built the Tesla using card-board and its way cool too but I did not test it on any ICE based vehicle.

Hope this helps
Bruce S
   
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taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2011, 06:35:14 PM »
That's some awfully tasty pie in the sky Bruce ;D


Today, we did another ~3 hours of engine testing and completed about 20 runs.  We found that the AFR would drop after a few seconds of running.  This has lead us to the conclusion that the gas in condensing on the intake.  This will be a serious problem since the engine will be off for 2 minutes between 5 second burns.  It is obvious that the carb is very cold.... We may end up having to heat the intake pipe and insulate everything.  A shorter intake pipe would help too.  We will also probably need to switch to an aluminum pipe for better heat transfer.

Efficiency is up over last year's test results... we still need to take more data points to find the "1 hp" AFR ratio so we can compare apples to apples (the hardest part).




RP

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2011, 07:32:22 PM »
Are you allowed to preheat the engine before your trial runs?

taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2011, 07:51:12 PM »
Yes....

You can run the engine as much as you want until you go into the fueling building and get your perfectly weighed fuel bottle... then obviously you don't want to waste it.  From the time you go into the  building and end up on the start line, it is probably a minimum of 5 minutes, if not longer.  We could use our ballast resistor from the coil to heat the pipe(50 watt resistor :)).  We could add even more resistors if we wanted to, so long as the power comes from the engine or the accessories battery (1.4 ah 12v battery).

Some of the top teams (Laval and Team Infinity) both insulated their blocks/heads.  We could do the same.  We could use our exhaust wrap to keep the heat in too.  But, both of them used Electronic Fuel Injection instead of the carburetor.  I guess the fuel is condensing on the surfaces of the piston/sleeve/valves too.

We could also extract the heat from the exhaust too on the stock L-head design fairly easily... the intake and exhaust holes in the block are right next to each other.


On the plus side, the engine compartment generally stays hot due to the lack of air circulation.  Temps are definitely over 100 F on a cool summer day in Michigan.

RP

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2011, 10:52:37 PM »
I think your best bet is to insulate the whole motor as a unit and preheat it by running it.  If you only heat the intake and carb, the fuel will just condense in the valve chamber and cylinder.  You'll want the whole thing hot so the fuel vaporizes and stays that way.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #61 on: October 06, 2011, 12:25:12 AM »
First up:  Engine efficiency.  Since you're still open to changing the engine design:  Have you looked at the radial cam engine?  This uses a cam instead of a crankshaft.  That allows the piston motion to follow any time function desired, rather than the small family of near-sinusoidal motion functions you get from a crank.

If you look at the pressure-volume graph of an idealized heat engine you see a loop composed of four discontinuous curves:  Adiabatic compression, additional of heat at maximum compression, adiabatic expansion, and removal of heat at maximum expansion.  The area of the curve represents the energy converted to mechanical power on a cycle.  An internal combustion engine does the "removal of heat" step by swapping old gas for new, so it usually does it well.  But the adding heat step is more problematic.

A normal crankshaft-type engine ignites the mixture shortly before TDC, after which it burns for the rest of the compression stroke, most of the power stroke, and there's still a little left unburned when the exhaust valve/port opens.  Some of the added heat comes in too soon, fighting you, much of it comes in late and you only get part of the benefit, and some is just lost.  Mapping this back to the P/V curve rounds the corners and drops the expansion curve, showing you a lot of area corresponding to lost energy.

But with a cam-based drive for the piston you can STOP it at TDC and burn ALL the fuel at maximum pressure and density, corresponding to the ideas curve.  You can also chose the time/motion functions of your compression and expansion curves so the combined torque of the set of pistons is essentially constant, producing a very smooth motor.  And you can run two cycles per revolution, allowing you to run opposed pistons in unison.  This totally eliminate unbalanced moving mass and the resulting vibration, while getting the equivalent of a 2:1 gear reduction for free.

Here's some web links to videos of, and more info on, an 8-cylinder "DunVille rad-cam" radial engine for ultralights using this technology:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvwdQA26fcc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFYlx-rxWgM http://www.dunville.vze.com/.  (Ignore the stuff with the bouncing ball analogy.)  Note that the 8 cylinder design gets 32 power strokes per revolution.  So you can get away with TINY pistons - and as a result a tiny engine - for your application.  Note also the extremely low exhaust temperature - which corresponds to most of the energy being turned into work.  B-)

Re:  Rotating valves vs. poppet valves.  The advantage of poppet valves is that the pressure during the compression and power stroke helps seal the valve.  Yes it takes a lot of power to open poppet valves.  But most of that is stored in the spring and comes back when you let them close.  With rotating valves you're dependent on seals that are being pressurized from the sides, and seal technology has been a major issue.  Also:  The port closing is trying to cut the seal surface up unless you ramp the edge.

Re:  Fuel/water/soap mix.  Water injection has been shown to improve the efficiency of an (ordinary) otto cycle engine considerably.  The boiling of the water does a better job of coupling the heat to the piston than letting the burn continue during expansion, while the water helps prevent loss of heat energy to forming nitrogen oxides.  This soap hack sounds like a simpler variant of one that was played with a few decades back:  A jet produced a coaxial stream of water surrounded by gasoline.  And the jet was vibrated ultrasonically, resulting in a mist of tiny particles with water on the inside and gas on the outside.  The gas evaporated nicely, formed an easily ignited vapor, and burned (near the droplets) as if the mix were rich.  Then the energy from the burning coating of gasoline caused the water droplet to explode into steam - blasting the remaining fuel through the air and making the rest of the combustion quick and nearly complete, while the water vapor suppressed much of the NOx production.

This, and other, water injection schemes didn't make it into production cars because it would have required TWO consumable liquids to run the engine.  The auto execs didn't want to put this double-fueling load, and problems if one liquid ran out, on the car owners.  I'm not sure whether water injection is applicable to your contest, but I suspect the issue is moot.


Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #62 on: October 06, 2011, 11:39:39 AM »
Note that the 8 cylinder design gets 32 power strokes per revolution.  So you can get away with TINY pistons - and as a result a tiny engine - for your application.

Oops.  16 power strokes per revolution.

But they also are running it two-stroke (without a crank they only have sliding seals on the combustion side and can pressure-lubricate rather than mixing oil into the fuel).  So compared to a four-stroke they get the equivalent of a 4x piston multiplier.  Running two-stroke, so the opposing pistons are both firing simultaneously, also eliminates side-forces on the crankshaft, further lowering vibration.

Hmmm...  Simplifies the valving (you can do it with ported cylinder and reed valves).  But you lose some of the potential power by the double-compression and port-mediated gas transfer.  I bet you could do even better on efficiency with a four-stroke design.  (And you could stick with your rotating ported pipe valving.)  Given your application there'd be no need for the "smoothness" and the tiny power requirement means weight isn't THAT much of a factor.  So you wouldn't have to go to large piston counts.

One lungers would be a problem though.  With the arbitrary motion curve you can't get a good balance with rotating coutnerweights.  So you just about have to do an opposed piston design or a sliding counterweight similarly moving on the opposite side of the cam from the piston.  With an opposed sliding weight it might as well be a second piston.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 12:11:35 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #63 on: October 06, 2011, 08:58:17 PM »
Quote
Re:  Rotating valves vs. poppet valves.  The advantage of poppet valves is that the pressure during the compression and power stroke helps seal the valve.  Yes it takes a lot of power to open poppet valves.  But most of that is stored in the spring and comes back when you let them close.  With rotating valves you're dependent on seals that are being pressurized from the sides, and seal technology has been a major issue.  Also:  The port closing is trying to cut the seal surface up unless you ramp the edge.

Very true. The rotary valve will have to resist bending when the cylinder fires.  More or less, my design will have to be a lucky guess, since I can't really change the dimensions, without drilling new head bolts.  When we go to build the rotary pipe engine, we will need to try some type of bronze to seal the port hole.  Hopefully that works, else maybe some custom machined Teflon could be manufactured (the F1 team did this).

Our seals are quite good, and from what I have seen so far, they are rated for the pressures that we will encounter.   For now, all the parts for the engine are in a box.  This will be built after our rocker engine is made and tested, which may take a while.


Quote
irst up:  Engine efficiency.  Since you're still open to changing the engine design:  Have you looked at the radial cam engine?  This uses a cam instead of a crankshaft.

I have seen this.  The design though has been shot down by my other group members.  The complexity and the need for extreme valve timing are not needed.


Quote
If you look at the pressure-volume graph of an idealized heat engine you see a loop composed of four discontinuous curves:  Adiabatic compression, additional of heat at maximum compression, adiabatic expansion, and removal of heat at maximum expansion.  The area of the curve represents the energy converted to mechanical power on a cycle.  An internal combustion engine does the "removal of heat" step by swapping old gas for new, so it usually does it well.  But the adding heat step is more problematic.

Good thing I took a thermo class last semester.  A Miller or Atkinson cycle would help out.  Hopefully our turbo can help us out on this one.

Quote
Given your application there'd be no need for the "smoothness" and the tiny power requirement means weight isn't THAT much of a factor.  So you wouldn't have to go to large piston counts.

I wish you were right, but trying to transfer the torque from a single cylinder engine is not easy with a flywheel that weighs less than 2 lbs.  We have a local company called Lord, and they make dampeners.  I can't count the number of different rubber blocks that exist in our lab.... and none of them work.  We have had engineers from their company try to fix it too, but with no luck.

Quote
This, and other, water injection schemes didn't make it into production cars because it would have required TWO consumable liquids to run the engine.  The auto execs didn't want to put this double-fueling load, and problems if one liquid ran out, on the car owners.  I'm not sure whether water injection is applicable to your contest, but I suspect the issue is moot.

It was a nice thought.    :)


I have discovered that Excel's "Solver" (an add on that you can install with no downloading) option doesn't like to optimize functions that take 4 minutes to solve once....  I started it 4 hours ago to optimize my "Max MPG" cell in my calculator using upper and lower velocities as things to change.  Apparently my use of the "What if Analysis" is much better at doing this. ...... wait a minute, the solver finished  ;D   It improved my max mpg by ~11 mpg by finding the correct speeds (it says 10.14 and 20.50 ish).  I'm thinking there must be something wrong though, since the engine efficiency curve isn't right... it should of averaged around 18 mph.  It must of gave up :-\



Here is the list of teams that have signed up already.  Looks like 3 out of the 4 teams that beat us are already signed up.
http://www.sae.org/servlets/collegiateCompetitionInfo?OBJECT_TYPE=CollegiateCompetition&OBJECT=CollegiateCompetition&EVT_NAME=SUPERMILEAGE&PROD_GRP_CD=STUD&SORT_ORDER=A&PAGE=teamRegistrationList&EVT_SCHED_GEN_NUM=null

« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 09:00:06 PM by taylorp035 »

SparWeb

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2011, 05:29:19 PM »

I have discovered that Excel's "Solver" (an add on that you can install with no downloading) option doesn't like to optimize functions that take 4 minutes to solve once....  I started it 4 hours ago ....


Just let me know when you are ready for MathCAD...

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taylorp035

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Re: Supermileage Projects
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2011, 11:45:20 PM »
Lots - O - people use MathCAD at Behrend.... I have not been converted yet.  I have seen it used before, and I was impressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2Jp8_YfA8E


My starter motor on 8s A123 and the 530 kv 800-900W outrunner.... a little past its voltage range :D  Lets say I bet I could make the car do a burnout with the starter motor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htBwGUHKJy0

This is what happens when you put too small of a carb on an engine.... it squeaks and is impossible to tune.  It was really squeaky.


A bunch more dyno runs took place.... further enhancing our AFR vs. Efficiency curve (now ~45 points).