Author Topic: turnbuckle and cable sizing question  (Read 6421 times)

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bennyspoon

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turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« on: August 01, 2011, 10:21:37 PM »
Hi guys, i am wondering how all of you tower builders selected your cable and turnbuckle size to suit your towers?

Does someone here have a formula or calculation that they would care to share?

Cheers,
ben.

birdhouse

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2011, 02:23:08 AM »
ben-
i did my sizing of guy wires by other manufacturers specs.  ended up with three 20' chunks of pipe for a 60'+ tower.  1/4" for the top and 3/16" for the two lowers.  4 guy footings. 

if it were me doing an 80 footer, i'd go 5/16" for top and 1/4" the rest of the way down, but i'm far from an engineer, and these are just what *I* would deem sturdy.

if you're going over 80' then you'd better really know what you're doing, or be really good at math, or both!   :)

adam

TomW

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2011, 04:04:32 AM »
I am running a 12 foot turbine at 45 feet on a pipe mast.

4 guys at 2 levels. 4 anchors approximately 40 feet from tower base.

All are 5/16" and I would not recommend any smaller on the guys.

I use 5/16" lift cable, too.

Just from here.

Tom

silentblue1987

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2011, 06:23:58 AM »
5/16" is definitely sturdy and even with 3/8" you'd still need 800+ lbs of force to snap a line. once the mast is well balanced in the upright position you won't have much to worry about.

Not hard to find either.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=steel+wire+rope&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&cid=2833108111651265304&os=sellers

If you want a surefire calculation I suggest for every 15ft of tower you add a set of guys (every 10 if you're paranoid). Make sure the top guys leave room for the blades though and evenly space them.
ex:
15' - 1 guy set (at 10')
20' - 1 guy set (at 15')
30' - 2 guy sets (12', 25')
45' - 3 guy sets (13', 26', 40')

For god's sake though bundle all the guys together when you're hoisting it up.. Seen too many rookies snap towers in half that way.. >:(
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 07:31:16 AM by silentblue1987 »

fixitguy

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2011, 11:22:06 AM »
years a go i gad a Rohn 70 footer.back in my CB days...had a damn big antenna.a moonraker..it was like 4feet x 4feet square and 12 feet long.three i/8 guys.stood 8 yearstill i sold the bundle package..took a crane to up lift the antenna..the Rohn never even moaned.

bennyspoon

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2011, 07:56:08 PM »
thanks for the replies, i used the formula i found here posted up by cardamon to calculate the pulling load to raise the tower, but i'm wondering if there is something similar floating around to calculate the load on the tower from the wind? i have inspected the bergey and southwest tower manuals and my mind boggles at the size of the cable they use, as i too intend to replicate to a certain extent what they have done,  the turbine i am starting off with is only a little fellow. but i would prefer to build it a bit stronger so that i can put something bigger up if i get to that stage.
ben.

SparWeb

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2011, 12:01:24 AM »
I'll confess that I copied, a lot.  But I also took the time to check and do the calculations to make sure that I understood what I was doing, not just imitating.
The calculations are nothing beyond 1st year mechanical engineering.  You can go nuts and do lots more computations, but when starting with something that already does work, it should be no surprise that the math tells you it works.

If you didn't happen to take 1st year mech eng courses (everyone in the world should, really) but want to know everything about it anyway, then this turns into a lecture about free-body diagrams and strength of materials, and stops being about towers for a very long time.  The internet just isn't a very good medium for teaching that kind of detailed stuff.  I've written a few things about it on my personal web site, you've found some good work by Cardamom already, and the Bergy tower install manuals are priceless.

You aren't wrong:  the Bergy towers can be over-designed, but see it from their perspective:  they are selling a product for installation in locations god-knows-where.  The last thing they need is a tower dropping down because they assumed a safety factor of 4 was good, but somebody overloaded it by 5x.  Which is also a lesson for us DIY builders to heed as well.

I think that if you keep looking you will find more information about the subject, but little in the way of detailed "how-to".  The cost of making such a "how-to" is very high, so you can't expect it for free.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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bennyspoon

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2011, 12:55:54 AM »
hey there sparweb, i can appreciate  that such information as a how to may not come for free, then again it may. i am also interested to know how others came to their conclusions. indeed i did not take any mechanical engineering instruction courses, which has led me to enquire as to whether or not anyone here has such a  formula. i was suggesting that my mind boggles at the size of the cables used by bergy and sw wind, because i would have thought them too small, especially as you say due to their towers being installed god knows where. but then, that's why i asked the question, as i am a wet back!
ben.

birdhouse

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2011, 07:23:35 PM »
ben-
if you care to have a look, i've got the pdf's for ARE towers.  (abundant renewable energy).  they were bought out by someone else, but i think the new company uses the same tilt up towers.  there's two manuals...  one for "short" towers (40-80')  and another for their tall towers (100-120')  they are extremely informative, and give all the specs needed. 

some parts of their towers i really like, and others i don't care for.  so i took the info i liked and put it into implement, and borrowed other ideas from other companies where i didn't like ARE's designs. 

send me a PM with your e-mail, and i'll shoot em over.

adam

clockmanFRA

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2011, 08:23:29 AM »
Hi birdhouse,

Is it possible to send me a copy of your 2 manuals pdf's. Towers ???

I will send a PM with my e-mail.

Much appreciated.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
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3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

nekit

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2011, 08:51:15 AM »
I've got a tower just shy of 100' with a 17' machine on it.  The tower is built of 8" OD tubing and it is tilt up.  I'm using 3/8 cable on the top guy station and 1/4 for 3 lower stations.  Seems to be working well.  You can see all the specs in the "User Diary" section of this forum under "My 17' Turbine so far"

If anyone is interested I have an extra 250' roll of 3/8" 7X19 Galvanized Cable that I would let go fairly cheap. PM me
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 09:09:52 AM by nekit »

clockmanFRA

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2011, 04:39:56 PM »
Many thanks birdhouse.

The manuals are very comprehensive and give good info.

Again, Thanks.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

bennyspoon

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2011, 08:34:42 PM »
Cheers birdhouse,  i'll have a read through them this arvo, great work.
nekit, that's a pretty trick looking setup you have there, i have the envy. i especially like your winch/tow bar mount, great idea.

thanks all, this is very inspiring stuff.
ben.

birdhouse

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2011, 09:05:12 PM »
you're welcome guys.  keep in mind with those plans, that ARE thrives for a very small tower footprint.  therefore, their concrete is way heavy, and their guys are way thick to deal with the extra forces involved with a small guy radius.

rule of thumb around here seems to be guy radius = 1/2 tower height.  IE-  60' tower has 30' guy radius, or 60' guy diameter. 

no-one has chimed in about turnbuckle size either.  i use twice the guy cable size for the turnbuckles.  3/16" guy gets a 3/8" buckle, and 1/4" guys get 1/2" buckle.  i then use a 5/8" turnbuckle to hold the gin pole to the raising/lowering footing, because my gin pole is welded on, and always attached...

adam


bennyspoon

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2011, 09:47:16 PM »
yeah the turnbuckles are the thing that i'm stuck on at the moment, how many grades of buckles do you have available for a given size?

ben.

birdhouse

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2011, 10:11:14 PM »
ben-  i'm sure there as many grades as you care to seek out.  stainless, zinc'd, hot dipped galvo, aluminum, plastic, ect.  i used the safe working limit, and breaking strength, and compared them to the cable i was using.  they seem to be the weak link in the guys, as to cover your guy wires rated limits, your turnbuckles would have to be huge.  i just looked at as many manuals as i could find, and boiled them all into one pot, and pulled spoonfuls of the portions i liked, and started fabbing, and scrounging for pipe to create my soup (tower).  i'm not near as good at math as some of the other here.  so i used my 10+ years of construction, and 17+ years of rock climbing to reason my way through the loads. 

fabbing a tower from scratch is no joke.  i had 90+% confidence while welding in my shop.  that dropped to 50-60% when i lifted the whole tower for the first time.   now i'm back near 100%.  when you tell people you've fabbed, from scratch, a 70' tower, they kinda look at ya sideways a bit.  there's a reason for that.  basically you'd better know what you're doing!   

just a friendly note to say go get 'em, but be safe :)

adam

bennyspoon

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2011, 02:15:37 AM »
yeah, the safety thing is the top of the priority list at the moment, that's why i'm trying to get a handle on this. i've had the old boy check out the welds i've done and he's happy with them so i'm happy with them now too.

there seems to be three grades available to me here in oz with the lowest grade not being rated and of a lesser quality steel { i pressume, maybe it's the construction, or maybe both?} . so i grabbed an m16 and an m20 sized one {16 and 20mm so 5/8 and 7/8 i think} and i'm going to load them up with my hand turf0r to see how they hold up. the rigging guy i sourced them through said he tested  {m20 size} 3 in every 10 in a batch of 200 and when they started to deform it was at 6 tonne so they would be a safety factor of 5 if they're rated at 1.2 tonne i think. the middle grade turnbuckle is rated 1.2 tonne but is only m12 in size but was about 80 oz dollars a go, so over 20 something turnbuckles,that's an expensive proposition. the m20 is way cheaper at 12 dollars or so but is obviously going to be a lot more cumbersome at the anchor end.

i imagine that the greatest load they will experience is when the tower is being raised at the beginning of the pull, as the mill i'm putting up is only a 7ft job.


any aussies reading this feel free to chime in with what sort of turnbuckles you guys used.
cheers,
ben.

SparWeb

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2011, 04:12:37 PM »

any aussies reading this feel free to chime in with what sort of turnbuckles you guys used.

Australian turnbuckles turn the wrong way in the northern hemisphere, don't they?    :P

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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B529

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2011, 08:54:41 PM »
years a go i gad a Rohn 70 footer.back in my CB days...had a damn big antenna.a moonraker..it was like 4feet x 4feet square and 12 feet long.three i/8 guys.stood 8 yearstill i sold the bundle package..took a crane to up lift the antenna..the Rohn never even moaned.


Guessing your guy wire was EHS? terminated with "big-grips"?, large guy radius? EHS is not the same wire these guys (some pun intended) are using today.


nekit

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2011, 10:45:39 PM »
I'm using 5/8" turn buckles on my 3/8" cables and 1/2" on the 1/4".  They seem to be holding up fine, but are probably the weakest link.  It's not the size, as much as the quality I worry about.  I bought them in the US on eBay, but they are from China.  Hot Galvinized.  I replaced all the through bolts with better quality ones, as the bolts were very cheaply made.

wdyasq

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2011, 10:35:42 PM »

Australian turnbuckles turn the wrong way in the northern hemisphere, don't they?    :P


Only one half turns the wrong way. To use turnbuckles made in the Northern Hemisphere one must invert them for use in the Southern Hemisphere.  I'm not real suere Imperial turnbuckles can handle Metric loads though.

Ron
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SparWeb

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Re: turnbuckle and cable sizing question
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2011, 01:01:57 PM »
.... especially to put self-locking nuts on, in my case.  Hope everybody else does that too...


I'm using 5/8" turn buckles on my 3/8" cables and 1/2" on the 1/4".  They seem to be holding up fine, but are probably the weakest link.  It's not the size, as much as the quality I worry about.  I bought them in the US on eBay, but they are from China.  Hot Galvinized.  I replaced all the through bolts with better quality ones, as the bolts were very cheaply made.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca