Author Topic: 10 footer  (Read 4178 times)

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fixitguy

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10 footer
« on: September 23, 2011, 02:34:55 PM »
heres my 10 footer.i'm building a new hub for new blades and was wondering if the enlongated slots will weaken the blade supports?the hub is 1/4 inch T1 material.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 03:00:06 PM by fixitguy »

birdhouse

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2011, 04:39:41 PM »
anytime you remove material, it will make the piece weaker.  weather or not it is enough to make any difference, i don't know.  i personally like to sandwich the blade roots between two pieces of steel.  makes for a very strong hub/mount. 

on a separate note:  are you installing any sort of speed control?  that motor looks awful small for a 10' set of blades.  i wouldn't be surprised if you burnt the windings out after the first large wind. 

just some thoughts.

adam

oneirondreamer

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2011, 05:54:16 PM »
Elongating the slots would cause a weak area in the plate, right where it's subjected to the greatest bending loads.   1/4 T1 steel is very strong stuff, and statically could easily take the load, but because the centripetal loads are not in line with the T1 plate, I'd imagine it would fail within a few hundred thousand cycles, give or take.  Mostly because the T1 plate isn't lined up with the strain caused by the blades pulling as they swing around and that stress wouldn't be constant as in the lower part of the cycle gravity works with the centripedal load, then in the uppper part of the cycle it works against it, if the assembly isn't stiff enough to resist that bending, the it will fatigue.   T1 sounds like a reasonable choice for a high fatigue assembly but the simplest thing would be to make a second plate, it need not be T1, and drill it exactly how you want it (to match the proper hole spacing in the other plate), then use it on the front of the assembly, both to evenly compress the wood blade roots, and to minimize (effectively eliminate) bending of the mounting plate.   Done perfectly it would probably also include gluing in bushings in the wood blade hubs, that the plates would compress too.   I doubt you would get much benefit from the bushings, but am sure you'd get a lot of security of mind from a front plate.   Heck, you could even make it out of plywood or aluminum, and it would still probably result in an assembly lifetime of 100 times what you are looking at now.

artv

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2011, 05:59:02 PM »
Hi Fxit,...why do you want the slots?....Is it so you can adjust the tips of the blades(diameter)???
Or just to lighten the load?
With the slots the way they are, will make it weaker(IMHO).........artv

fixitguy

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2011, 06:26:48 PM »
thanks fellas,
i'll not cut the slots.they where just a thought to remove some weight.the 'sandwich" idea is i go.
the pma is an old Whisper 1000 from the late 80's and still making juice.as for speed control i copied Mr Olson's design.adjustable spring operation.
the reason for the gear rig is because iv'e poor wind here.on a good day it may hit 15MPH.
ive been flying it with 8' blades and they just didnt quite spin fast enough so im gonna try a set of 10's
maybe i'm going backwards.it's all new to me still.
thanks Paul

ghurd

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2011, 04:16:08 AM »
to remove some weight.the 'sandwich" idea is i go.

ive been flying it with 8' blades and they just didnt quite spin fast enough so im gonna try a set of 10's
maybe i'm going backwards.it's all new to me still.


Weight is not important.

10' will spin slower than 8' of the same design, unless it is hard stalled.
It is not hard stalled if it is not cutting in until 15MPH.
Might consider something like 7'?

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TomW

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2011, 10:08:42 AM »
Like Glen says, shorter blades will inherently run faster all else being equal.

If you simplify it down to tip speed ratio, the speed of the blade tip at X wind speed, then it easy to visualize why this is so. Longer blade the tip has to travel further to get one revolution.

A bit over simplified but sufficiently accurate to see "why".

Tom

birdhouse

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2011, 12:30:29 PM »
fixitguy-
tom and ghurd are right smaller rotor dia. turn faster is all else is equal.  however, you're going after watts in a low wind area with a geared set up.  why not keep the larger rotor,to capture as much wind as possible, and change the gearing to dial in the rpms to maybe hit cut in at whatever you like.  a super low cut in will really limit output in higher winds, but i'm guessing you're just after whatever watts you can get in your low wind location. 

adam

Flux

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2011, 12:38:12 PM »
"the reason for the gear rig is because iv'e poor wind here.on a good day it may hit 15MPH.
ive been flying it with 8' blades and they just didnt quite spin fast enough so im gonna try a set of 10's
maybe i'm going backwards.it's all new to me still.
thanks Paul"

I see lots of room for confusion here. if we consider direct drive then the larger the prop the slower it will run. I am not sure at what stage you introduced the gearing or what ratio it is. When you introduce gearing you then don't have the same restrictions on prop size and you can choose it based on other things.

Going from 8ft to 10 ft will be slower on the actual blades but you have more available power so you can increase speed more as long as the bearing and transmission loss doesn't defeat you. it won't going from 8ft to 10ft. What may defeat you is controlling a small alternator geared to a large prop in a high wind. if you can manage to deals with that then the larger the prop the more you will get in a given wind.

Things are much more restricted with direct drive and you have to match prop speed to the available alternator.  The Whisper was a very fast machine and your blades would not be a good match for direct drive. If you get your gearing right you should be perfectly ok.

Flux

ChrisOlson

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2011, 12:49:20 PM »
I suspect the 10 foot blades will work better on that setup.  The old Whisper 1000's, built by Manny Umpiere in Duluth, MN, used about a 8 foot rotor, or maybe slightly bigger, but not bigger than 8.5 feet.  With the gearing you're overloading a 8 foot rotor on that generator and I'm betting you'll actually see better performance from the 10 footer in the low to midrange windspeeds you're designing for.

Another option is to go to larger diameter yet (perhaps up to 12 feet) and use a two blade rotor instead of three.  In designing and testing my new 13G turbine with a ferrite generator and two blade rotor, I've found the slightly larger diameter two-blade configuration will generate some serious speed and gain a little swept area to-boot.  I'm using the same blades on it that I use on the 12G - same pitch angle, same chord, everything.  Except at 4 meter diameter instead of 3.8 meter.  The rotor runs at 5.7 TSR at peak efficiency on the 12G with three blades, and 6.5 TSR at peak on the 13G with two blades.  At 12 mph that translates to 155 rpm for the 12G, and 168 rpm for the 13G.  With the end result being that the 13G delivers 11% more power at 12 mph than the 12G does.

So the rule of thumb that a bigger rotor always turns slower is not always correct - it depends on the design of the blades and rotor, and how good of a match you have to the generator loading.

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Chris

fixitguy

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2011, 05:34:45 PM »
man oh man...some say yes others no..quite confusing.
Chris.this whisper originaly had 2 blades and powered a small house for years (with help from solar).
i can easily make a 2 blade hub out of flat bar and see how that works.
im not 100% sure about the ratio but i think....input 1...output 2.4.
i'm at a complete loss with all the calculating needed to figure all the what and whatnots needed to make a geared rig work first time around...so its trial and error.

thanks Paul

ChrisOlson

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2011, 06:30:26 PM »
Yes, the Whisper 1000 is a high-rpm turbine.  If you have a 2.4x step-up I think you'll be close with the 10 foot rotor.  That rotor you got doesn't run at 8.5 TSR like the Whisper rotor.  But with the gearing I see no reason why it won't work.  If the gear ratio isn't quite right it should be fairly easy to "tune" it by changing the sprockets to either increase or decrease speed to whatever it takes.
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fixitguy

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2011, 06:29:06 PM »
i opted to make a 3 blade'r first.got it Plasmacam'd today.my reason for trying the 3 is i dont think 2 blades will have enough torque to get it spinning.we'll see.
if the 3's do well i'll make a 2 blade'r and try that.then i can start adjusting sprockets.
it'll all in the fun fellas.:)

fixitguy

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2011, 10:21:03 PM »
drive sprocket=45 tooth.driven=21 tooth.today i set it on the test stand and spun the input shaft up with a hand drill.little resistance until the input hit 80RPM.after that it was 2 handson to hold the drill.at that speed it was putting out 14 volts and 12 amps into a fully charged 12 batt...with the blades spinning also.
this jenny give options to change internal wiring from 12-24-36-48.at present its wired 24V.
im charging a 12 battery bank with all the needed controller and dump load
question?...should i even take the time to rewire and get readings thru all the available wiring options?

ghurd

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2011, 11:03:06 PM »

man oh man...some say yes others no..quite confusing.


I said "of the same design".

Change the design, and the replies will change.
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fixitguy

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2011, 04:20:43 AM »
i  went up and down the volt wiring im at 36 volts now.
with these cheap applied magnet "wannabees" 222 design 3 blades.they pull like mules.80 bucks shipping included.
they start spinning at 3 MPH.lock on the 12V batteries at 6MPH.still not enough to charge proper with 2.1 gears.so i replaced the 21 tooth with a 17 driven.
that changes the ratio from 1-2.1..to 1.2.6...we'll  see what happens......i must say these  blades pull hard.lots of low wind torque.
foumd some #40 chain and a 60 tooth sprocket in the shop...im running 50 chain now..so that will help....fine tuning the system.:)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 04:24:54 AM by fixitguy »

fixitguy

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2011, 11:49:50 AM »
big wing today 7-12 mph.the gears are still at 2.1.too much fun watching them turn.and dangerous to change the sprockets.

pumpining 14+ volts and 27 amps.

fixitguy

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Re: 10 footer
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2011, 06:24:48 PM »
new sprocket's and chain on order.dropped the chain size down to #30 instead of the overkill 50.
went to a 60 tooth driver sprocket hope the blades can pull it.
as its still the same ratio as before its making juice in 4-5 MPH winds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw60fddIPfg