Author Topic: Active Pitchcontrol  (Read 331881 times)

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Frank S

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #231 on: June 20, 2012, 06:20:59 PM »
The first shop I worked in when dinosaurs walked the earth had that on the front wall on a poster about 3 feet by four feet.
Right next to the one that read " Your lack of planning is in no way an emergency for me" LOL.
I don't remember seeing too many dinosaurs around the blacksmith shop where  I took my apprenticeship but we did have an old model "A" ford engine powering the overhead flat belt shaft system this ran the grinder the trip hammer the  drill press & the lathe though and we had a carbide generator we used once in a while if we ran out of acetylene,
 I started there then I was 11 sweeping up and cranking the blower for the forge by the time I was13 I was re tipping and beating out plow sheers. before I was 15 i had my 6G and could do a bell hole weld  with a mirror if need be.
 come to think of it there was 1 dinosaur a Lincoln upright welding machine we called it the Coffee pot
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

fabricator

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #232 on: June 20, 2012, 08:34:38 PM »
Those Lincolns were called coffee grinders, you still see em at auctions and estate sales, the first sheet metal shop I worked at had an over head jack shaft, EVERYTHING ran off that shaft, the one half inch by ten foot shear the 12 foot press break that would put a 90 in 12 feet of 1/4' mild steel, you might have to jump on the pedal a couple times but it would do it.
all the drill presses, everything but the welders,( I remember when they came around with the first wire welders it was ten years before anybody trusted the welds they made) IIRC the main motor was about 15 or 20 HP and it was a huge old thing, it had an open frame and had lots of oiling points, that was the apprentices job (me).
I also got to fix belts, at least two a day broke or came apart, nothing was shut down, i just got the belt length, put on the laces, put it over the shafts and fed it on the pulleys, there were NO guards anywhere, a contemporary OSHA inspector would have a stroke and die right on the spot.
I remember a furniture shop we used to do a lot of blow pipe work in had and actual stationary steam engine that ran the whole plant, the plant had about five floors, you want to talk about a LOT of jack shafts and belts, a lot of the jack shaft bearings were just greased wood pillow blocks.
It mad a lot of sense for them because they could run the plant in saw dust, shavings and scrap they made, the engine even had a dynamo on one end that made electricity for the plant too. I got caught a lot of times just standing there watching that engine run. ;D
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

kensue49

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #233 on: June 20, 2012, 11:16:19 PM »
I have seen several plant with those type of belt drives and some water wheel driven.
My dad would not let me out of his sight when we were there. I love that stuff.

I grew up on a farm and we worked the land, gathered corn, cotton and fed our live stock( cows, pigs and goats). We had vegetable gardens of  5 acres for our use. A smoke house for our meat and salt box for our bacon and hams.

When I got my first job as a machinist I knew nothing other than the farm and hard work.
Engine lathe, turret lathe, surface grinder and milling machine.
For three years I saw four walls and no sun light. I am no engineer but a worker who did not know I would miss the sun, grass and non-conditioned air.

Several years later(37) I have readied myself for retirement and love wind( I remember an old water pumping wind mill I could see from my bus ride to school), Solar and Hydro power-Thanks  "The Mother Earth News- Handbook Of Homemade Power") .

I think Fabricator You are slightly above my experience level but you know the secret of happiness.  The ability to function effectively with and around complicated machinery. And function effectively without it.
I learned to burn a stick with a Lincoln buzz box. Boy was that a thrill to join two pieces of metal and have it stay together- Ag shop 1971.
Kenneth

hiker

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #234 on: June 21, 2012, 02:56:41 AM »
nice....
i build with wood also...never had a problem -even in high winds..
but why did you make your rotor from wood ?[blade mounts]..most stresstfull..?
just curious sence it looks like the rest is all made from metal.........
WILD in ALASKA

Frank S

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #235 on: June 21, 2012, 05:17:30 AM »
Some may wonder what old jack shaft shops has to do with this thread
.
Yea we Hijacked it big time LOL
 however many principals of this man's active pitch control could be found in those old shops.
the block bearings ans stub shafts.
 the linkages& fulcrum arms would have been seen through out the machinery.
. Back to the hijack anytime you see an 11 year know how to  take a broken broom handle to the side of a running belt then knock it off the pulley to stop a machine that is trying to eat the 70 year old operator alive then reach with his hand and toss the reversing belt over another pulley and then take his broom handle to nudge the belt onto the lower pulley just enough to cause the machine to back up enough to allow the man to free himself you have got to appreciate the apprenticeships of by-gone days. I worked at that blacksmith-shop for 5 short years left there in 1970 but was there long enough to help convert the whole shop to electric motors on each machine 42 years later some of my fondest memories are of the hard work I put in there.
 Fab you are right it may have been called the coffee grinder 
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #236 on: June 21, 2012, 07:14:51 AM »
Hiker.
It is under construction and I use wood to find measurements ,
Not to f...k up an aluminum disc I am waiting for.
A friend of mine is looking for it in the scrapbox of a shipyard where they make luxury sail-yachts.
That will be permanent. With an extra ring on the pillow block tops .
A sort of sandwich to make it extra strong . I did that before succesful.

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #237 on: June 21, 2012, 07:43:50 AM »
Frank, Kensue, Fab,

That was history  leatherbelts with cram and pin connection , reverse with a halftwist belt.
Pedal and fork switch .  hahaha. '' the good old days''
A resin block in hand was used to make extra grip in case of slip.
I remember a Lincoln welding machine as a rocketmodel with iron wheels  AC motor -> DC generator with handwheel to adjust amps . I did my 6G with it.
We had this till end 60's because after the war there was a lack of everything.
With Marshal help, tractors came here like JohnDeere ,Allis-Chalmers , Ford and Ferguson.
Caterpillar and first hydraulic.
Dinky-toys If you see it now.
A frontwheel of a todays tractor is bigger than a rearwheel of the old-ones.
The industry who worked soon with electric motors on their machines ,lathe,mill ,drill were airplane-  car- and arms-factories   

fabricator

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #238 on: June 21, 2012, 08:29:43 AM »
Frans, thanks for being so gracious on our blatant hijack of your thread. ;)
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #239 on: June 21, 2012, 01:09:54 PM »
Most of the best machines are used by arms-factories.
We digged this up years ago . A Browning 0.30 from a shot down Wellington in 1942.
It is visible that the parts are made high class and with precision.
I made a new heat protector for it .
We found other-ones which are still operation ,they were well protected in the ground.



fabricator

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #240 on: June 21, 2012, 05:59:03 PM »
That's cool Frans, I don't know country flags from spit, what country are you in? Germany? Holland?
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

klsmurf

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #241 on: June 21, 2012, 07:14:24 PM »
Fab,      Hover over the flag.
" A man's got to know his limitations " ------ Harry Callahan

fabricator

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #242 on: June 22, 2012, 07:37:37 AM »
I never knew that, thanks KS.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #243 on: June 22, 2012, 09:16:36 AM »
The Netherlands .   

The 0.30 is a part of our WW2 airplane museum . All guns are not operational.
People from all over  visited the museum .
There are parts of B-17 , Beaufighter , Spitfire, Focke-Wulf , Wellington.
A pilot from Springfield ILL. USA came over several times , he is a good friend .

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #244 on: June 23, 2012, 06:25:40 AM »
Pitchcontrol system  B-17 WW2  Wright Cyclone 1000 Hp Radial.

We have one in our museum. That inspired me a lot.

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #245 on: July 07, 2012, 10:26:19 AM »
Long time ago in 1991 we made a plan for a windturbine for a friend 10 miles from here.
I made an ''impressive'' sketch and calculations on a half A4.
Than we delivered the plan to the council inspector.
They knew nothing about a windturbines because it was an upcoming technical phenomenon.
So one of the inspectors came on the location and we told him it was a hi-tech scientific project supported by the Dutch Technical University.
Later to be used in 3rd World-Countries like Africa , India , and China ..... duh ???
In a week time we had permission to start.....big fun.
Today the rules and knowledgement are a bit changed.

 - Frans -

mbouwer

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #246 on: August 18, 2012, 05:09:44 PM »
Hallo Frans,

Aare you also going to visit Aeolus Windpowered Vehicles Race  22 - 25 august in Den Helder?
It is quite nearby where you live and perhaps we can meet some windmillbuilding friends.

Regards Rinus

SparWeb

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #247 on: August 18, 2012, 09:41:23 PM »
...
They knew nothing about a windturbines because it was an upcoming technical phenomenon.
So one of the inspectors came on the location and we told him it was a hi-tech scientific project supported by the Dutch Technical University.
Later to be used in 3rd World-Countries like Africa , India , and China ..... duh ???
In a week time we had permission to start.....big fun.
Today the rules and knowledgement are a bit changed.
 - Frans -

They'd never believe me with that story today!  Good for you for trying.   ;D
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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mbouwer

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #248 on: August 19, 2012, 07:42:04 AM »


It's about real safe windmills in places with quite undisturbed windstream.
I would like to make a solemn appeal to our d.i.y. windmillbuilding friends for more cooperation.
Several disciplines finding each other in translating the latest techniques to our working models.

Regard Rinus



SparWeb

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #249 on: August 19, 2012, 12:38:23 PM »
....
Several disciplines finding each other in translating the latest techniques to our working models.
Regard Rinus

Rinus,
Here is something I translated from Finnish (Suomen) last year:

www.sparweb.ca/Forum/Tuulivoima_ABC.pdf

This is from the Finnish Wind Power Association, their Home-Builder's Guide.  (Suomen Tuulivoimayhdistys ry, Tuulivoimaharrastajan Opas)
The scale of wind turbines represented in the Guide are much larger and more complex than the ones seen on this website.
I found the checklist of safety and design requirements very worthy of translation and being shared on this website, even if the majority of Fieldlines members will never consider overspeed brakes or blade pitch.

I hope you and Frans will find it useful.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #250 on: August 19, 2012, 01:32:01 PM »
Hi Sparweb.
Thank you for the translation of the Fin info .
Interesting to see they talk about " Home Build '' with that size of mills.
The safety rules are equal to the professionals.
We as DIY are working in The Netherlands with blade diameters max. 4,25 meters.
2 projects are in progress with active blade pitch .
I have a 2,9 mtr diam succesfully operational  , a 3,25 m is under construction.

Rgds - Frans -

fabricator

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #251 on: August 19, 2012, 01:38:48 PM »
I don't see how the design Frans has come up with could be improved upon, the only thing I have been thinking about is a rotary actuator with a cam shaped disc on the shaft to push the furling rod, things could probably be lightened and made a little smaller.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

SparWeb

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #252 on: August 19, 2012, 10:55:57 PM »
I don't see how the design Frans has come up with could be improved upon...
Fabricator,
Many ways to skin a cat.  Frans has worked out a nice system, especially suited for the scale of turbine he has built.  I expect it to be reliable for him, too, as long as he replaces some of his fasteners to better resist vibration. 

But consider this alternative, also from the Finnish builder's handbook:

Mr Vilho Salmela was using a hydraulic system to operate his pitch control.  Push rod through the bore of the shaft, like Frans is doing with his mechanical actuator.  In 1994.  The valves could allow the system to auto-feather the blades in the event of a system failure (though I don't actually see that feature in his simplified system schematic).

Frans,
You are welcome!
I hope it can give you inspiration or ideas.
In fact, there is more in the documents, perhaps you may find it useful, too, if I send it to you.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

Frank S

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #253 on: August 20, 2012, 04:32:34 AM »
Un my design that I have been working on I have considered a pitch control that is both active and passive. actually it is quite similar to Franz's design in many ways,
 the system I have been drawing uses the pressure of the wind against the blades via linkages that are controlled by a very stiff spring or even could be a hydraulic cylinder connected to an accumulator. the end of the plunger would have a thrust bearing that would have an actuator pushing against it the actuator would be controlled by a wind speed indicator, The anemometer would send a signal to the actuator to maintain a maximum blade angle set according to wind speed. For gust of higher wind speeds the heavy spring and plunger would allow the blade angles to to change even further.
 Now the RPMs of the turbine could be held to a near perfect setting for the operation of the generator.



 more can be found on my thread 
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,146738.msg1006757.html#msg1006757
I live so far outside of the box, when I die they will stretch my carcass over the coffin

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #254 on: August 20, 2012, 09:54:42 AM »
Last week very warm weather 40 deg.C.
Fortunately we have a free energy fan cooler.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vSf_wV7VE0&list=UUhmCD9VGJTBJsh0tCDHsHbw&index=1&feature=plcp

My apology if the embedding fails.

Sparweb.
Thanks for your offer. If you have a link of the site ,I can translate the pages and I select the worthful chapters out of it .

Frank.
That's a great design . I like the spindle actuator with spline ( compact )
Good presentation with Solid Works ?
Bring it in production and we start a Kuwait , USA , Dutch joint venture.
Production in China is riskfuly  lol.

  - Frans -

SparWeb

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #255 on: August 24, 2012, 12:01:29 AM »
Sparweb.
Thanks for your offer. If you have a link of the site ,I can translate the pages and I select the worthful chapters out of it .

Sure.  I will send you a PM (private message) and e-mail the file to you.
If you don't know how to use the private message system on Fieldlines, I can explain.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #256 on: August 25, 2012, 04:58:19 AM »
Hi SparWeb.

Thanks for the links .I've tried to answer by PM but it seems it did work on my dino PC.

Rgds  - F -

mbouwer

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #257 on: August 26, 2012, 07:08:12 AM »
windmill friends

About Johnathans topic: My Windturbine with active pitch control

We think it's a real nice design, but his remark:

" I'm not sure why at the time I decided not to use the method with a linear actuator as that's bound to be easier than my method" ,

looks very important to us.

SparWeb

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #258 on: August 27, 2012, 10:29:11 PM »
I got your replies Frans,
You are welcome.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #259 on: September 03, 2012, 01:23:18 PM »
Aluminum rotorhead baseplate with fillets under the pilowblocks.
More rigid and better line-out of the blades.
Took a bit of time to make but it's worth of doing so.

 - Frans -

fabricator

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #260 on: September 03, 2012, 05:47:43 PM »
Beautiful Frans.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

mbouwer

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #261 on: September 14, 2012, 05:48:28 PM »
Hi Fabricator,

Nice to read that you can make your own bearings.
We also try to do so to get a single main bearing design.
Can you tell what kind of material you use, and how we can harden it.

Regards Rinus

fabricator

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #262 on: September 14, 2012, 06:48:43 PM »
I use water hardened W1 tool steel, it is the easiest to machine tool steel that can be hardened in water.
You simply machine your part then you heat the steel up until it becomes non magnetic, that is usually a dull cherry red, then quickly quench it in a pot filled with a lot of ice cubes and water.
Be sure all your machining is done though because it gets HARD, it has a very hard outer shell and the interior is also quite hard, it's often user to make hammers.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

mbouwer

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #263 on: September 15, 2012, 04:30:59 AM »
Hi Fabricator,

Thanks for telling us about your method.
Also I am impressed by the bearing Frank S shows.
We are trying to make a light weight single main bearing ( diameter 30 cm )  because our goal is a working model of the Enercon.
In hardening afterwards we thought it would give deformation.
Thats why we first hardened the ring. About in the way you discribe.
After that we made the race way for the balls by grinding.
Between the balls is a steel ring to keep them in place.
We now want to improve.

Regards Rinus