Author Topic: Active Pitchcontrol  (Read 331855 times)

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Menelaos

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #363 on: July 04, 2013, 08:08:40 PM »
Hi Frans,

Great Work,

For my project I bought one of those:

http://www.voelkner.de/products/267950/Transmotec-DC-Linear-Motor-DLA-DLA-12-10-A-100-POT-IP65-16012112CR-12-V-DC-Hub-Laenge-100-mm-Schuble.html?WT.mc_id=googlebase&utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=Q09809&gclid=COqLsvOGl7gCFTHJtAodBAIArw&WT.mc_id=googlebase

I make very slow progress as I have other priorities at the moment but it slowly gets where I want it ;-)

By the way, on tuesday I start a pedal bike tour from my place near Bremen to Amsterdam, if your place is not far off my route I would really like to meet you and see your turbine working. Would be nice if you send me your address ( probabaly better in the german discussion board...)

Max

Bruce S

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #364 on: July 05, 2013, 12:25:58 PM »
Max
Trying Not to Hijack this thread too much.
However, knowing the country side of both areas, (I was stationed in Hanau for about 3 years) how are you ever going to make it with all that beautiful scenery to stop and enjoy?
Happy Trails!
Bruce
 
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

Menelaos

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #365 on: July 05, 2013, 12:53:11 PM »
I planned our route along the islands, Texel, Vlieland etc...there are really nice spots over here and over there, We will do our best to see as much as we can, including wind turbines of course ;-)

Max

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #366 on: July 19, 2013, 05:31:47 PM »
Max (Menelaos) was here by bike with his girlfriend and dog.
They made a trip of 340 km.
We had a nice conversation .
Almost no wind but still spinning blades.
Thanks for visiting us.

Menelaos

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #367 on: July 20, 2013, 03:13:18 AM »
It was a nice trip, 700 km all together. That girl by the way is my best friend, not my girlfriend. We left our partners home... ;-)

Thanks Frans for the nice hours. It really is a nice pitch system you created. But of course, whenever there is somebody comming by to see the turbine there is no wind, it probably came back directly after we were leaving your place :-D

Max


acme12

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #368 on: August 07, 2013, 10:57:06 AM »
Hy guys,
Joust thinking. Would be possible to make pitch drive with electromagnet. The larger the current the stronger the force of an electromagnet.

 
 

Flux

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #369 on: August 08, 2013, 03:24:36 AM »
Linear solenoids are notoriously inefficient. With any conventional type of electromagnet you will run into trouble with the inverse square law ( or something near). I doubt that you will build a stable mechanism.

Flux

acme12

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #370 on: August 08, 2013, 09:56:02 AM »
Thank Flux. In my head was too easy (good) to be effective (true). Also a friend - electrician advised me that a system with solenoid will not work.
I'll go back to the drawing board:)

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #371 on: August 08, 2013, 04:22:09 PM »
Lineair solenoïds are used to stop diesel engines .
Lineair actuators ,car window motors and cordless drill are better (with endstops).
I have good results with a speed of 8 - 10 mm per second.
Publication of the mechanical system is soon on the forum.
Looking forward to your new design.

JW

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #372 on: August 08, 2013, 05:22:26 PM »
I have some experiences with linear motors, these had a close stop point, and a adjustable open stop point. The biasing element was a spring. The spike from the extended stop would generate one hell of a back voltage spike. I solved the problem with mosfet and a ziener diode.

One thing that peculiar is that, after the first use the reluctor becomes polarized , so if the reverse the feed dc input was used the back emf became uncontrollable. The steel I used for the parts of the actuator were not magnetized until the actuation. At that point you could never reverse power input polarity or it would fry the solid-state array.

Why not use a worm gear linier actuator, im sure that's not needed for high speed use, for what your doing.


JW   

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #373 on: August 10, 2013, 12:38:38 PM »
Drawing of the mechanical control system, not on scale.


acme12

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #374 on: August 11, 2013, 04:05:46 AM »
Here is another idea for activ/passiv pitch sistem.
a - pitch rod
b - main shaft bearing
c - main shaft
d - spiral spring
e - fan rotor
f - external pitch brake
g - generator

At low RPM, the fan rotor (e) with nut, there would be no great resistance. When the rotor RPM increases, resistance of the fan becomes larger, causing retardation behind main shaft, pitch rod then move. When RPM is reduced, spiral spring (d) returns the fan rotor to its original position. Any coments?[/img]

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #375 on: August 11, 2013, 10:41:03 AM »
acme12

It took a wile to understand the design.
You are using the vector difference of the bladehub and the mainshaft.
Problem is the long track you need with twisted springs back and forward ,to get movement and stroke of the pitchrod.
I am a fan of a control with a few components ,I have good results with the airplane-like control.
Looks complex but working okay.
Keep going on ,on the drawingboard .
Rgds. Frans

acme12

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #376 on: August 14, 2013, 02:56:40 PM »
Tip of the day ;D; passiv pitch sistem. This one should work.
a - pitch rod
b - main shaft bearing
c - main shaft
d - chain gear
e - chain
f - spring
g - generator
h - rail
i - wagon+weight
j - chain

fabricator

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #377 on: August 14, 2013, 03:18:52 PM »
Nope, not yet, they all have to be connected together you can't any of the blades at different pitches.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

acme12

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #378 on: August 14, 2013, 04:46:43 PM »
Good morning fabricator.
All wagons on rails are conected via chain to pitch rod. Rotor blades are ment to be on the left side, not seen in sketch.
Now I need to go to sleep. It's pretty dark here.


midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #379 on: August 14, 2013, 05:34:59 PM »
A very good design for passive pitch control is JACOBS .
If I  make a passive pitch I think on this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7gndP6mgTU



fabricator

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #380 on: August 14, 2013, 05:52:28 PM »
Yep, tried and true for around 100 years, they are not shown there but there are large springs that hold the blades in and as the rpms increase the centrifugal force overcomes the springs and increases the pitch of the blades.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #381 on: August 15, 2013, 03:48:17 AM »
Right. Large springs and sweep . Atleast 6 meters.
acme12 can make it on a smaller scale 3 meters.
Reliable and not to much parts.
This basic system can be made for active control too ,if you know the way.

 - Frans -

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #382 on: August 15, 2013, 12:07:36 PM »
Drawing metric mils . Active Pitchcontrol mechanism.
 - Frans -

diy

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #383 on: August 18, 2013, 06:00:52 AM »
Windmillfriends

Am I right Pitch Control in small windturbines is booming?

Greetings Do

mbouwer

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #384 on: August 19, 2013, 04:39:59 PM »
Do,

That's quite logical. See the professionals.
And how many years it took them before they were convinced.

Regards Rinus

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #385 on: August 19, 2013, 05:10:40 PM »
Rinus.

I dont think its booming soon.
The drawings can be a support for technicians who intend to make one.
Its designed for a 3  meter dia prop and a 9 coil and 2x 12 magnet PMG.
Most of the parts can be made with hand-tools. Mainshaft .. machine shop.
Working good here for 2 years.
Should be nice to interchange experience mechanical and electronics.

Rgds. Frans.

kitestrings

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #386 on: August 21, 2013, 12:13:40 PM »
Frans,

I've enjoyed following this thread pretty much from the beginning, and I'd echoe electrodaddy's comment a page back; you're creative and persistent in your approach(es).  Nice to see folks looking at different ideas.  Regarding centrifugal/mechanically hubs, I wonder if you ever seen a Dunlite/Quirks machine.  I always thought they had a nice hub design, though the machine itself had some other short-comings (blades, tail support, earlier models had inaccessible diodes up on the tower).

I also wondered if you have considered or tried an actuator that operated the furling mechanism on a folding tail design.  It is an idea that I've toyed with.

regards, ~kitestrings


midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #387 on: August 21, 2013, 03:37:33 PM »
Kitestrings thanks.
I didnt know much about Dunlite/Quirks ,it was an Australian windturbine with passive pitch in the 70's. There is a very good topic on The Backshed , where they recondition them. 5 pages.
There is told about the short-comings too.

http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2378&PN=0&TPN=1



I had a folding actuator tail on a previous windturbine design 3 years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwHYQd3iadA

But the blade pitch works more instant with a micro-controller.

Regards -Frans -

kitestrings

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #388 on: August 21, 2013, 04:27:12 PM »
The Dunlites brings back memories.  They were god-awful heavy I remember that part.

And, I do remember seeing your post on the folding actuator tail now.  Was it hard-wired to the controls? or remote?  I'd be interested in any details that you recall.  I was actually not thinking of it for governing, but just to allow the machine to be shut down, as an alternative to mechanical means (or without braking electrically via shorting).  Many designs, like the Dunlite, Sencenbaugh had a manual furling cable, but they are a pain to deal with and not have influence the normal furling mechanics.

~ks

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #389 on: August 22, 2013, 03:48:18 PM »
Actuator fold tail.
Hard-wired to the switchpanel. (2 wires). A Rpm counter triggered a relay  for 3 seconds at max. 340 rpm propeller speed. Repeat with extra wind.
Manual switch to start and stop.
The actuator is a LINAK  LA 12
 - Frans -
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 03:54:34 PM by midwoud1 »

kitestrings

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #390 on: August 22, 2013, 04:26:14 PM »
Thanks Frans,

It's helpful to see how it is set up.

What I don't like about this is that it is always tied to the tail, and likely is too slow in fluctuating winds.  The beauty of folding tail, IMO, is that it is simple and doesn't rely on electronics, or in this case the motor actuator to work.

What I was was considering, however, was an actuator where say the cylinder simply pushes on the tailboom, but when retracted does not interfere with the normal gravity/thrust balance act that is going on with a furling design.  If it could be wireless, which I think it can, I'd like it even better.

Best,

~kS

kitestrings

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #391 on: August 22, 2013, 04:36:40 PM »
Oh, and thanks for allowing me to diverge slightly from your main topic.

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #392 on: August 22, 2013, 06:01:21 PM »
Okay welcome.
Its late here , zzzz . Tomorrow a sketch on the drawing board.
  -Frans -

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #393 on: August 23, 2013, 04:46:44 PM »
Tailfold actuator and gravity furling.
Push-Pull quarter segment.
Pulled in , the tail has free movement.
Wireless operation like garage-door opener.
Probably a car window opener can be usefully.
Rgds - Frans -

kitestrings

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #394 on: August 23, 2013, 10:17:33 PM »
Frans,

Yes, that's closer to what I was thinking.  Oh course the devil is in the details.  This would take lots of force without getting out further from the hinge-point, and it is not a linear path (as shown).  Perhaps hydraulic over electric.  The cylinder retracts under pressure, but stays clear of the mechanism otherwise.

I was initially thinking something simpler still...  If there was a ratchet/pawl that could be engaged remotely, you could just let the wind furl it (at some point, perhaps not exactly when you'd like), but not allow it to open until after the inspection, repair, maintenance.  This mechanism would take very little force to engage it.

What I do like about all of these strategies - i.e. furling tail, pitching blades, motorized yaw - is that they are generally passive, controlled.  Comparatively, the brake-shorting method puts a pretty abrupt hit on things.  And, if the alternator is in trouble to begin with...well, a run-away is a frightening thing.

~ks

midwoud1

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Re: Active Pitchcontrol
« Reply #395 on: August 24, 2013, 02:57:42 PM »
Kitestrings,

Ratchet and pawl like a handbrake in our cars.  But how to lock and unlock...solenoid(s) ?
Because it is a complex handling.
On Backshed a goodlooking system (Deneema line ) of Phillm.
No actuators , relays , electronics on top.

http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/blog.asp?blog=1

The builders of the old wooden windmills spend also long hours around the table to solv and improve their systems centuries ago , and it is still working . hi.
Regards - Frans -