Rack and panels install - finally

[Dave B]

Finally everything is falling into place. Here's a photo of my ( Kyocera panels @ 1080 watts that I installed. I still have the wiring and controller to install but the grunt work is pretty much done. The rack is custom made from different ideas I had. If and when the time comes it is set up to rotate as well as vertical positioning with a couple of actuators. 3 great days of weather and maybe another one tomorrow, it should be very soon I'll flip the switch to add even more star power to the batteries.  Dave B. 

[wilfor03]

Looks really good, Dave. Is this the only power for your home or are you on the grid? Wouldn't happen to have any pictures of your "rack" metal work would ya? Just curious to see it? (Pinochio complex, I guess!)
I built my little 340w rack a couple years ago (E-W tracking) for my battery back up power when the grid goes down here (happens a lot in Alabama!). Used a C-Band frame from satellite dish. Was pretty easy, overall.
Keep us posted how it works out for ya......

Bill

[luv2weld]

Nice rack!!!

Uuuhhhh, wait a minute! That sounds like something I said to a girl in a bar.

Ralph

[Dave B]

The rack is all steel, a bit over 200 lbs of tube and angle. Now with another 230 lbs or so of panels on there I am so glad I figured to over build it, it's not going any where. I am still on the grid, (for now) and this will charge my batteries along with my 16' turbine. Great heat off the hot air panels is really saving me fuel on these Fall days where I fill up the house with hot air and cruise through the cold nights off the heat sink. More projects in the works, right now I need to pull wire and finish this one. Thanks for the compliments,  Dave B. 

[dnix71]

You live in upstate NY? How deep does the snow get where you are? That rack looks high enough for even a bad winter.

[Dave B]

Western NY and yes we get a lot of snow. You are right about that being a consideration when I set it up, I figured it would also be easier to mow around and not seem to take up as much room. Today I pulled the cables, set up the ground and made things neat and ready for the controller install. For a break I checked the output of each panel and all within seconds of each other. Amazing that the largest difference between all 8 panels was .16 vdc (open voltage) Can't wait to flip these on, we just had a rare event of 4 days straight of full sun but then that's Murphy's Law again.  Dave B.

You live in upstate NY? How deep does the snow get where you are? That rack looks high enough for even a bad winter.

[dave ames]

Hey Dave,

That sure is purdy! Thanks for the look.

The first shot would make a great centerfold or holiday card 

[defed]

i'm in WNY also, and i think i had asked a question earlier about how much concrete is holding that up.  i have my panels out on temporary ground racks until i figure out how i want to mount them.  i was considering a single pole like yours, but thought the foundation would have to be too big.  yours doesn't look that large.

i am almost finished wiring my stuff up, just waiting for some more parts.

[TomW]

i'm in WNY also, and i think i had asked a question earlier about how much concrete is holding that up.  i have my panels out on temporary ground racks until i figure out how i want to mount them.  i was considering a single pole like yours, but thought the foundation would have to be too big.  yours doesn't look that large.

i am almost finished wiring my stuff up, just waiting for some more parts.

I have 850 watts of solar on a 3.5" pole mount. 3+ feet into the 8" hole with less than 3 bags sackcrete (~180#) filling the rest. I would have gone deeper but hit the limestone at 40" or something.

10 years or so with panels on it and its still rock solid and plumb. The ladder is just there for connection access it serves no support function.



Tom

[defed]

wow, i can't even fathom putting my panels on a pole like that w/ that little concrete in the ground!  i put up a 10' c-band dish with a 2'x2'x4' block in the ground and that thing started leaning in no time.  i am in a rather windy location tho, it gets funneled in from the wide open field to the west and wreaks havoc on my house...rips trim off, shakes the whole thing, etc.  i'm sure the type of soil and many other factors play into the equation.

[birdhouse]

just some thoughts:

tom, i'm amazed as well with how little concrete you got away with using!  great it's working out well for ya!

some folks get all bummed out when they hit bedrock while trying to dig a footing for something.  i get stoked for two reasons, 1)i'm done digging, and 2) if you have a hammer drill you can drill holes in the bedrock, and hammer in pieces of rebar at varying angles to basically bond your pour to the rock below.  this *should* make it stronger than if the desired hole depth was achieved in most cases. 

adam

[TomW]

Its all about the depth. the concrete just makes a bigger area to bear against the dirt.

I am no engineer but I can tell you on a straight line pull you will never tip that pole over before it folds up.

Bell shaped bottom of the hole so it cannot be extracted upwards either.

It is not about counterbalancing with concrete. I coiuld have as easily just tamped the dirt back in and still not worry. The concrete increases the pole diameter in the ground so is better.

I think you guys are over thinking a simple pole installation.

But its your show.

Tom

[defed]

Its all about the depth.

right, and "less than 4 feet" isn't a whole lot.  i have to go 4' minimum to get below the frost line, and i still wouldn't go w/ less than a cpl yards of concrete.  i mean, your array must stick up 10' + to the top of the panels.  that's alot of surface area and leverage for the wind.  i do find it hard to believe that if you attach a chain to the top of that pole, and pull it w/ a tractor, that it won't come out (or at least lean a fair amount) before it fails.  but, like you say, to each his own.  i think another factor is the size of the hole vs what is in it.  when i did my c-band, i had to dig the hole w/ a backhoe, which meant it was oversized and backfilled.  if it had been poured up against undisturbed soil, it may not have leaned so easily.

[artv]

Hi Defed,....do you know how deep your bedrock is?........you said you poured a 2x2x4 pad and it tilted?....
If your bedrock is 8 feet deep you need to to drive re-bar in on angles ,(at least 75 percent of bedrock depth)...six or eight, leave them about 20"s exposed,.. form at least a 3'x3' pad around the bars and grid tie re-bar square or octagon....pour at least 8 inches of concrete for your pad.......once that is cured it won't move ,.....an earthquake ,no guarentees'.....just what I would do......artv

[TomW]

defed;

8" hole in virgin soil post setting on what passes for bedrock here which is sedimentary limestone and will not frost heave.

I did dozens of C band dishes this way in the day. Just use dry sacrete in an 8" auger dug hole.

Of course yours tipped with that big hole backfilled around it. Virgin soil is a whole other animal especially with our clayey loam which is pretty incompressible.
The top of the pole is at about 7 feet.

that is apples to papaya comparison.

I have no concerns.

Tom

[defed]

bedrock?  10' ?  50' ?  a mile?  i've never seen it.  i have about a foot or 2 of clay then sand and gravel (and water)...which also doesn't help.  if i get past 4', the holes will fill w/ water.  i agree an undisturbed hole is a must, but i still don't think i'd trust a 10' cband or 8-10 panels on a pole w/ 200 lbs of concrete 40" deep.

if it works for you, great, i envy you, but i can't see it happening for me.  too wet at the bottom of the hole and too windy off that open field.

[Volvo farmer]

One of my arrays is very similar to Tom's and has been in the ground around 3 years. I know I didn't get over 42" deep and I know I didn't put more than 4 bags of Quickcrete in the hole.  Soil was undisturbed and mostly clay, 8" hole 4" pipe.  Array size is about 80 square feet and tracking.  Never had a problem with it, though we probably have never seen a gust more than 50mph here in the last 5 years.

Heck, the 2 80W panels at my garage have been on a pole about 6 years now, less than 36" deep and no concrete at all.  They're sheltered from the wind by the building, but haven't moved in all this time.

[Dave B]

  First off, my post is a 6" schedule 40 pipe. It is 12' long set 5' deep into a 14" augured hole in undisturbed earth. Soil has a high clay content and the sides of this hole were straight and sharp bored just like a drill through harwood. Toss a dry bag of Sakrete in the bottom of the hole first before setting the pipe on it then fill in the rest around it with mixed Sakrete. I don't remember exactly but I think it was 8 bags total.

 There are many ways to set a post or pipe and depending on the application and soil make up each could be the correct and safe way to do it. In my case I am not using the concrete for ballast but merely to fill the gap between the pipe and the undisturbed earth of the sides of the hole. Like Tom said, for my application here I also could have tamped soil and some stone around the pipe up to grade and it would have been as solid and as permanent as the concrete. I did not have any stone so purchasing the Sakrete was the way to go.

 I see even so-called experienced contractors setting posts for like decks and porches etc. without first pouring in Sakrete dry or a set base first for the post to rest on. So many times they will drill the hole and toss the post in then plumb the post and pour in the Sakrete. Good for maybe a few years, the concrete cracks (all concrete cracks) around the post, there is no support under the post and now very little if any adhesion to the post, the water seeps in to the bottom of the hole and the post settles depper and deeper. Ugly deck, ugly porch, ugly situation. The other scenario I see often is that when in doubt use Sonotubes. How often have you seen out of plumb light posts stuck in Sonotubes filled with concrete ? Easy and quick but one thing forgotten, here you are not really setting the post but more so setting an isolated tube of concrete in a hole. The install is only as good as the backfill around the Sonotube.

  Ballast or support, clay or sand etc. etc. What is it you are trying to do ? Just dumping concrete in a hole or Sonotube might not do it. I'm done now venting about a couple of my pet peaves. Sincere thanks for the compliments on my solar project, I can't wait to complete the install.  Dave B.  

[Dave B]

A follow up to my solar project. As Murphy's law would have it I completed my install last night and we had the best darn day of wind, rain and dark overcast in a month with more of the same planned again for at least tomorrow. I was very surprised to see just over 2 amps @ 52 vdc into my  8 L-16's several times in these very dark and gloomy conditions. My turbine got a work out with 20-30 mph wind all day with gusts over 45 mph topped off my bank on top of all I was running off the inverter for the office  besides. Really looking forward to some brighter weather, the array passed the wind test today solid as a rock.  Dave B.

Finally everything is falling into place. Here's a photo of my ( Kyocera panels @ 1080 watts that I installed. I still have the wiring and controller to install but the grunt work is pretty much done. The rack is custom made from different ideas I had. If and when the time comes it is set up to rotate as well as vertical positioning with a couple of actuators. 3 great days of weather and maybe another one tomorrow, it should be very soon I'll flip the switch to add even more star power to the batteries.  Dave B. (Attachment Link)  

[defed]

it sure was miserable yesterday, good to hear everything was working good.

what charge controller are you using on the solar?  48v i presume?  is your turbine a homebuilt?

[Dave B]

Miserable again today and darker than yesterday. I bought a new TS-60 not the MPPT version for 2 reasons. Cost for one and now when I do eventually move up to MPPT this unit will certainly be used either as load control or diversion in my system some how. I have ideas on that already and in the mean time these are proven units, I also have the remote meter which is great to have. Can't wait for some sun.  Dave B.     

it sure was miserable yesterday, good to hear everything was working good.

what charge controller are you using on the solar?  48v i presume?  is your turbine a homebuilt?

[defed]

not nearly as dark here today, in genesee county.  i just got my 6 new panels (10 total) hooked up today, before the rain started.  yesterday. w/ just 4 panels, 175w each, 2 panels in series, my controller (xantrex mppt) struggled to get enough juice to even stay on.  today, it is generating enough volts so it doesn't keep cycling on and off.

the panels are 24v, so 2 in series is 48v.  i just got a new 48v inverter, so i converted my bank from 24v to 48v.  i wanted to go 3 panels in series, but in very cold weather, somewhere around 0F, they could exceed the 150v max input of the controller.

like you, i am now waiting for some good sun to test my new panels.  i hit 350w at 8am when the sun was out, so that was pretty good, as that is half of what my old array could put out at high noon.

[Dave B]

Woh Baby !

  The sun is out and this is just plain magic. No moving parts and I have seen 16.4 amps @ 60.1 vdc (985) watts in the bulk mode charging my batteries. I am running my office equipment and the solar hot air fans are on and I am still seeing + 400-500 watts charging. The batteries are nearly full and I have shut down my turbine to monitor only the solar for now. This is just too cool. A wind turbine is fun to watch and a great conversation piece but man after 6 years of tweaking that up down with the tower, adjusting this and that this solar stuff is a dream. Maybe I'm getting old but a 25 year guarantee 10' off the ground puts the icing on the cake. Let the sun shine and the wind blow !  Dave B.

Finally everything is falling into place. Here's a photo of my ( Kyocera panels @ 1080 watts that I installed. I still have the wiring and controller to install but the grunt work is pretty much done. The rack is custom made from different ideas I had. If and when the time comes it is set up to rotate as well as vertical positioning with a couple of actuators. 3 great days of weather and maybe another one tomorrow, it should be very soon I'll flip the switch to add even more star power to the batteries.  Dave B. (Attachment Link)  

[TomW]

A wind turbine is fun to watch and a great conversation piece but man after 6 years of tweaking that up down with the tower, adjusting this and that this solar stuff is a dream. Maybe I'm getting old but a 25 year guarantee 10' off the ground puts the icing on the cake. Let the sun shine and the wind blow !  Dave B.

I hear you on that. Turbines are nice but solar "just works".

Glad to hear your system is performing so well for you.

Tom

[Dave B]

If the sun shines and the wind blows they both work but to be able to have 1000 watts installed in a few days (if you can string the time together) and guaranteed 25 years no moving parts 10' off the ground and for less money than doing a 1000 watt wind system right, no brainer. I'm hooked, thanks Tom.  Dave B.

A wind turbine is fun to watch and a great conversation piece but man after 6 years of tweaking that up down with the tower, adjusting this and that this solar stuff is a dream. Maybe I'm getting old but a 25 year guarantee 10' off the ground puts the icing on the cake. Let the sun shine and the wind blow !  Dave B.

I hear you on that. Turbines are nice but solar "just works".

Glad to hear your system is performing so well for you.

Tom

[defed]

excellent!  i missed most of the sun while at work, but when i got home i fired up the inverter and put on some loads.  i have a 1500w heat gun, so i put it on.  low setting draws maybe 1000w.  peaked out at 1111w, at something like 15 amps, output from the panels.  the inverter was drawing about 35 amps from the batteries when i flipped the gun to high, but with the late afternoon sun, the most i could get on the CC output was 18 amps.

your are right, it IS alot of fun!  can't wait to get my permanent loads hooked up (and maybe grid tied next year) so i can see real output all the time.

[ghurd]

Eggs Actully!

Now the flip side...  imagine someone with a small system.
Couple hundred watts of solar does everything they need to do... for 9 months of the year.
The dark nasty remaining 3 months have some solar power available but not enough.
That's when there is wind for a 100W ~ 250W turbine to fill in at least Some of the power deficiency.

You will be more impressed with solar in July than now.
Wait until that Lake Effect stuff happens and solar will look pretty bleak.
G-

[ChrisOlson]

A wind turbine is fun to watch and a great conversation piece but man after 6 years of tweaking that up down with the tower, adjusting this and that this solar stuff is a dream

LOL!  Glad you like it.  Wait until you get your first ice storm and you got 1" of solid ice on those panels that's tougher than tungsten carbide.  And in the winter you brush them all off, go to bed, get up in the morning - no power.  Another light "dusting" overnight.  So you go out and clean them off again, then the sun goes under and doesn't come out for three weeks while you get another 6" of snow.

I guarantee you after your first winter with solar panels you won't be nearly so in love with them.  You'll have a path either beaten or shoveled to the array to keep it working.

Solar power fills in the gaps nicely.  But it's hard to beat wind power on a good wind site for reliable power.
--
Chris

[rossw]

I guarantee you after your first winter with solar panels you won't be nearly so in love with them.  You'll have a path either beaten or shoveled to the array to keep it working.

Solar power fills in the gaps nicely.  But it's hard to beat wind power on a good wind site for reliable power.

Enough with the overgeneralisations huh?

Depends on where you are and local conditions.

Where I am, solar is *WAY* more reliable. Much less maintenance than wind. Two orders of magnitude more watt-hours per day. And on top of that, I have arguably the highest-maintenance solar installation you could ask for - 6 trackers!

That said: I MIGHT get an inch of snow two or three times - a century!  We had a light dusting of snow here only 20 years or so ago. However we get sandstorms that erode the he!! out of the leading edge of props and play merry heck with bearings etc. From where I am, I can count several hundred PV installations (with binoculars), but I can see a grand total of ONE wind turbine. (mine).

[ghurd]

A wind turbine is fun to watch and a great conversation piece but man after 6 years of tweaking that up down with the tower, adjusting this and that this solar stuff is a dream

LOL!  Glad you like it.  Wait until you get your first ice storm and you got 1" of solid ice on those panels that's tougher than tungsten carbide.  And in the winter you brush them all off, go to bed, get up in the morning - no power.  Another light "dusting" overnight.  So you go out and clean them off again, then the sun goes under and doesn't come out for three weeks while you get another 6" of snow.

I guarantee you after your first winter with solar panels you won't be nearly so in love with them.  You'll have a path either beaten or shoveled to the array to keep it working.

Solar power fills in the gaps nicely.  But it's hard to beat wind power on a good wind site for reliable power.
--
Chris

Other than "a good wind site for reliable power"
Been there.  Done that.  A lot.  Since before your old battery bank was made.
When half someone's yearly income comes from a soldering iron in a 2 month period, getting 5~10 neighbors to make a path up a hill with snow shovels to get a mini PU truck close enough to charge the 'house battery' from a running 4-cyl Toyota, then having them push it up the ice covered hill is not a big deal.

A very very low percentage of the population has a good wind site, or the space to utilize it.

Solar is a lot like wind.  It needs to be a decent item, and properly utilized to be effective.
G-

[ruddycrazy]

Well is Ice is a problem whynot simple put some nichrome wire between each panel so if ice does build up swtich on the power and soon the ice will fall off. The power used to heat the ice to melting point will soon be regained with the PV. Aint rocket science either..........

[ChrisOlson]

Ross and Glen, yes of course I know all that.  I just remember back to when I got my first solar array hooked up.  It was about this time of the year with the cool beautiful fall days with bright sunshine.  I was like, AWESOME!  These are the best things since sliced bread!!

You know what they say about pictures being worth a thousand words?  So here's how it went - isn't fall just beautiful (and man are those solar panels ever nice!)?



Roll ahead to Thanksgiving and gun deer season.  Our beautiful fall weather has left:





We get to February.  Have not had a single day of sunshine since sometime around Christmas.  This is what it looks like in front of my shop door:



I spent most of my time, and about 2,000 gallons of diesel fuel doing this:



The wind turbines are on really tall towers and it takes a lot of snow to bury one of those.  The wind  blows and turbines make power 24 hours a day and it is just bitter cold.  Somebody even MENTIONS a solar panel to me and I've forgotten all about fall already, so my first reaction is, "Solar panels?  They're as worthless as tits on a boar pig.  I got some of them around here someplace - I think they might be under that big pile of snow over there......."
--
Chris

[rossw]

Ross and Glen, yes of course I know all that.
.....
"Solar panels?  They're as worthless as tits on a boar pig.  I got some of them around here someplace - I think they might be under that big pile of snow over there......."

My point is that you have stated that PV isn't worth a damn. Without even determining the site they're going to be used on!
You have in other threads shot peoples knees out for using a "high-wind turbine" in a low-wind site and how foolish that is, and how DARE *they* call those "high-wind" turbines junk just because THEY installed them in the wrong site.

You're doing the same thing here.

How much PV have you got installed? (rated watts in test conditions, not your perceived output at midnight in your winter, during a blizard and under 18 feet of ice)
How many AH (or WH) of battery bank are they connected to?
Why are you so disappointed with them?

As a friend said to me just last week - there's no such thing as bad weather. There's just "inappropriate clothing".
Wind turbines are not bad.
Solar power is not bad.
Neither however are going to be suitable in every location.