Author Topic: New VAWT, the ART Turbine  (Read 18580 times)

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clockmanFRA

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2011, 04:45:14 AM »
Interestingly, i have been pointing many of my colleagues acquaintances when they state, "putting a VAWT up soon", (not friends, as i think they allready have enough commonsense), at this particular posting as an example of problems in the RE evolving sector especially regards VAWT at its present technological state.

Some are adamant, "but the VAWT looks so cool" and "but the manufactures say" well then i show them all my collected scientific papers i sourced over the 1970's 80's, mostly from the articles from The New Scientist mag, material/ metal fatigue, rotational speed to high, low outputs, failures etc etc. Then, if they are still not convinced then i show the drawing in the photo below... My apologies to those that have seen this before.



This was my attempt at a VAWT in the early 1980's with known and proved VAWT technology. Okay i was fitting Kevlar sails, steel frame work etc trying to bring the concept up to date.
 This design evolved around 1000BC in China and was mostly used as water pumping/lifting for irrigation of crops. The original sails layout were from the Chinese Junk boat idea and the main frame was bamboo lashed together.
At rotation the sails to come up into the wind, tack, run with the wind, gybe and back into the wind. My problem was stopping the whole lot shaking itself apart when the sails were constantly tacking and gybing, and the main sail sheets, (boom ropes) needed some sort of dampening absorber.

Still have the flywheel, bearings tower mount and short tower frame, maybe one day.???

So once they seen this , they ponder, then i hit them with solar panels on a tracker, it looks good standing up and follows the sun, no moving parts, (well not many) and think of the Kw's it will give. And more importantly the ever reducing costs of PV and the ever increasing price of wind turbine bits, (My latest Hugh P's design has cost me 20% more this year just in the bits, i do one a year). And in any language my discussions seem to do the trick.

So tracker manufactures start doing some wacky designs.

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

TomW

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2011, 07:48:32 AM »
This whole thread needs to go away. It is just a pimp for this Fart turbine .

I thought you guys would have one hardazz left on staff when I resigned?

The kinder, gentler fieldpiles.

Taken over by scammers now?

Tom

electrondady1

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2011, 08:56:39 AM »
i like vertical mills .
especially the drag type .
they turn the slowest.
if you try , you can make them sculptural and beautiful.
that's important because if you want power out of them you need to make them big.

where drew went wrong on this board is not sticking to conversations about economical large dia. alternators,which is something he needed.
not starting,and getting caught up in debates over tsr,Cp, betz limits,  etc.
just an opinion











 



oneirondreamer

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2011, 04:55:20 PM »
The VAWT group deleted my posts because the site admin and his cohorts, didn't like the fact that I responded to there rudeness courteously and clearly, when I explained my position reasonably and completely refuted all their accusations.  

It should be known that the site admin had sent me private messages asking to license my turbine design to him for his local area (southwest states).  He told me in his private messages that he had created the VAWT site to scout for a VAWT opportunity.   I responded asking him more about himself, at which point he became very hostile, so I told him no hard feelings, but it didn't seem like a good match.  

(edit, I stand corrected by TomW, who explains below that he has nothing to do with the moderation at VAWT's site that deleted my posts, my apologies for associating you with it Tom)

After that he started posting negative comments.   He told me that I was "required" to post results, and so I looked up his forum "guidelines" and pointed out his new "requirement", contradicted his posts in his guidelines.   I asked him why he was "requiring" me to post results, when he hadn't required anyone else in the forum, and I pointed out it's and bits as a bully to whom I wouldn't bother responding to anymore.   The site admin then deleted all my posts, and closed my account.  

As for the bullying, I never accused the site owner of bullying, I pointed out that It's and bits, who had called me a liar previously, seemed incapable of civil discourse.  I showed where It's and claimed in the forum that I had not allowed him to post comments on any of my youtube videos.   I posting a link to my youtube video, showing where I had allowed it's and bits acidic comment, weeks earlier, and only hours after he had posted it, and showing my thorough reply to it's and bits, proving that the pot was calling the kettle black, and doing with nasty unnecessary language.  

All's well that ends well, it's no skin off my back to be booted from a forum that isn't interested.   As I have said many times, I'll release my results when I am ready, not before.   And if people don't like that, they are free to ban me, ignore me, or attempt to show me why they should see results before a public release.   Attempts to pressure me, like it's and bits nastiness, or TomW are a waste of electrons.  

My day was great, the VAWT guys only booted me because they couldn't take the heat, unlike them, I don't mind standing up for myself.   They are the ones who decided that they would remove the whole discussion.   It's clear enough that they only deleted my comments because they were uncomfortable with what they came out looking like in the discussion.   If they disagree, I'd be happy to see them re post the whole thread, I bet they won't (unless they decided to do some some substantial editing) because it would reflect poorly on themselves.   That said, I wont' be responding to rude demands.  

I will say, that I am holding myself to a commercial standard for my results.   For my project when I release data I'm going to be showing what my instrumentation is, where it's located, and why I am confident it's readings are accurate, and exactly what my methodology is.   I am going over all that right now with reviewing engineers, and still I imagine it will be a month or more before I am ready to release a report.   It looks like I may redo a whole round of testing because I want to be sure that my methodology is best practice, and not simply "good enough".   I understand that the best most people are able to do is hook up a relatively unknown efficiency home-built alt to their rotors, and use that to judge rotor efficiency.    It's not how I do things though, because from my understanding, using hand held multimeters reading alts of unknown efficiency isn't as accurate as I aim to be (most handheld multimeter are reading RMS volts, with algorithms designed for 60 htz standard line voltage, they are not meant to read wild AC, or rapidly fluctuating DC so can induce large errors).   My desire to release hard results this way is in part due to the fact that there has been soo much smoke and snake oil in the VAWT market already.  

At this time anybody with a tiny bit of know how can look at my video's and make whatever judgements they want, it's very simple to prove with simple online video tools how fast the turbine is going, and how fast the van is going.   I'd recommend the Vernier video tool for anyone who has an iOS device.   Anyway,  I am well aware that this forum is oriented toward high level home builders, (whom I admire and respect greatly), and that this post, talking about how I hope to take my project commercial, is outside it's normal purview.   I hope that doesn't get me banned.   I do feel that I should be allowed to respond to these baseless and rude accusations, by it's and bits and others, so I do hope that even if I get banned here now for this post, that my posts remain intact and that these guys won't be able to bury this response in more crude comments.    I think my comments stand for themselves, and I think people will be able to make informed judgments about the quality of it's and bits and his cohort by reading their comments.    What I see is becoming common in our society is that people who don't have good arguments often tend to substitute loud and rude voices, (look at political mess these days) however their own noise makes them easy to spot.    I would also point out that I haven't offered to sell anyone anything, here, or in any other forum, or ask for investment here or in any other forum.   The reality for me is that I am seeking Venture Capital funding, not funding from individuals.   Before I do sell anything, I will show real third party review of my testing, done to a solid high standard, in my mind until then I'm more home builder than commercial operation.   I'll let others decide for themselves.

I also apologize in advance, I don't have as much time to write considerate responses to questions and comments as I would like, please don't mistake delays for reticence, I'm happy to engage in civil dialog, and don't need others to agree with me to be polite.   People who choose not to be civil can expect to be ignored, as they should be.

Best Wishes
Drew
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 06:55:44 PM by oneirondreamer »

TomW

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2011, 05:16:22 PM »
dreamer;

I am not admin on any sites except a couple facebook groups. Not an admin here anymore, either.

I have never used my admin status to extract any commercial advantage from anyone.

Just to be clear.

Tom

electrondady1

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2011, 06:32:36 PM »
dreamer,.
 all that you say is not only plausible but probable.
some thing odd happened over there when two members formed a business venture.
after that the raison d'être seemed to shift

there are so many scams in the wind industry especially those connected with vawt's
both the administration and members are very protective of this site as well they should.
it is a terrific resource.
i can assure you tom has no affiliation with that site.
he's  gruff, but honest and fair.

i admire how you hold your ground .



oneirondreamer

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2011, 10:11:10 PM »
Last quick post, might be too busy for a couple of days.   

@Bruce, sorry if posting my website offended, I didn't see that my post had been edited by you until today

@volvofarmer, the relevance of the visible high TSR from my moving platform youtube video is a good question.    Here's why I think it's relevant,   My turbine is a high solidity turbine based loosely on the historic Savonius turbine.   It's universaly considered to be a drag based turbine, and the general thinking is that because it's a drag based turbine, it shouldn't be able to have a TSR of greater than 1.   In the 70's research by NREL, the wind tunnel work showed a maximum Unloaded TSR for the Savonius occurred at fairly high flow velocity, and was 1.1 where they reported a Cp of .2, this 1.1 number was considered close enough to the predicted max 1, that it was within reasonable error limits.    The report by Ian Ross (2010?), later refutes this result showing I think quite conclusively that inappropriate blockage ratio's were used, which very significantly distorted the results.   He conducted much more though research on this, with much more modern equipment, and reported that the maximum unloaded TSR for all the Savonius type rotors he tested was TSR .5 with no load, and .3-.4 with some load, with a maximum Cp of .04 again at fairly high flow velocities.    Since then I have been able to find other studies of VAWT's, but most contain the same wind tunnel blockage problems.   I haven't found any VAWT manufacturer who is willing to release a substantive report, nor for that matter have I found a HAWT manufacturer willing to release a substantive report.    I aim to be the first, and I aim to do it very well the first time, so as not to have to backtrack later.    I am however pretty excited by what I am doing and enjoying talking about it in a limited way.   I know that's frustrating for some people, but I am convinced that doing it right is better than doing it fast.   

Lastly, I don't remember who said that I'm claiming to have put millions of dollars of money into this.   I think you misread something from my website.   At this point all in, lots of money of my own, and huge amounts of my time have gone in, with a similar amount of money from friends, and family, but nothing like millions or a million.   Most days I eat cheap pasta, and scrape by, I do this because I believe in it, and I'm working hard to see that some day it pays me back by being a great solution for others, I know if I can get there, it'll also reward me financially.   I, and my advisers some of whom are very senior engineers with relevant backgrounds, think that I have a very sound theoretical model, and am on the right track.    I did have a business deal, but it was turned down by my advisers and investors and myself as not being the right deal.   Unfortunately that deal complicated my life, and make the ownership of the test results done by an independent evaluator questionable.   The report was on the last variation of the turbine (#15), which had a max TSR of 1.7 with a Cp of 1.68 so I have moved on.    When I moved on, I decided to try using the alt I built for my very large cedar turbine for testing the new turbine (#16).   That was a bust.    The mismatch is so great that I had to jack the magnet arrays so far apart, that the Cp of the alt varies so widely over my test speeds that I can't find the power curve, or make much sense of it at all.    What I can see is that I have gone from best unloaded TSR of 1.7 to well over 2, so I'm reconfiguring things to go back to band brake testing, where I have longevity problems (tests can only run so long before the band wears and torque drops) but I don't have interpretation problems.   I'm not a math whizz, or an electronics master, but I am more patient and persistent then most, so I'll keep at it, however there are other pots I also have to keep boiling, so no promises as to when I will be ready to publish.   

Best Wishes
Drew

Madscientist267

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2011, 11:37:46 PM »
Its fair to say at this point (at least to me) that you're neck deep in this, and firmly believe in what you're doing.

Nothing wrong with that per se, but the VAWT concept is badly shrouded by a rather dark cloud for those of us that understand what's going on with them (in terms of capability vs. corporate claims). The companies involved in them have given them such a bad name by WAY overstating the capabilities that the entire concept is (stereotypically) in the proverbial crapper.

Doesn't mean that they don't work at all, but there's such a stigma associated with them that for many, even the sheer mention of the word brings an instant wall up, seemingly out of nowhere. HAWTs, hydro, and solar don't see NEARLY the negativity that VAWTs do simply thanks in good part to that one train of thought.

Add anything at all that makes what DOES get through seem even the slightest bit "shady", and its doomed from that moment forward for most.

That being said, you clearly do your homework, are apparently methodical, and have tons of ambition for it. Pretty good combo, but remember that you have a really deep hole to dig out of (that unfortunately for you, didn't have much hand in digging in the first place). I wish you luck, actually. I for one an not a mill builder of either variety (primarily because I'm geographically and chronologically challenged to the point of futility), but they both actually fascinate me, and to be perfectly honest, I would absolutely LOVE to see this age old argument die a horrific death by someone with honest intentions grabbing it by the neck and driving a nail in its forehead. You know, once and for all.

Don't be afraid to post your progress. There's another thread on here where someone has gone more or less all over the map when it comes to trying anything and everything that he (or anyone else for that matter) can think of. Its currently like 23 "pages" long as of this post, and I like just watching it evolve, regardless of how it ultimately comes out.

He's a dreamer just like you - he stands his ground and goes in the direction he feels is best. He gets good and bad feedback in the process, here and there, but grinds on, regardless. There's no reason you can't do the same - just don't take it personally when the feedback isn't to your liking.

Follow your dream dude, just don't give people any reason to think that you're "after something". THAT'S when they will shut you down... Deleted posts etc.

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

Dave B

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2011, 12:52:45 PM »
Dreamer,

   I respect your ambition and dedication to your project. Your passion clearly shows you are in love with it and you talk very well for the marketing end also, it is a pretty design. You must realize that within this group on this forum there are many who are using and actually need the power they are producing so there is a cut and dried, black and white understanding of looking at the bottom line usable power produced. Call it where the rubber meets the road I guess.

  I have no doubt your design will produce power but until you can present actual data with side by side testing with HAWT of similar size and cost you will only be selling to a very small group of peers. That being people who love the look and have plenty of money to spend. It's hard I know to see things from the outside when you are deeply in love but my opinion is to step back, establish firmly what your goal is and give yourself a reality check. Your closest friends may not want to be straight up with their opinions, no one wants to disrupt a beautiful dream.

  Good luck filling the missing link (how much power for how much money ?) That is what you will ultimately need to sell, unfortunately just pretty won't get it done.  Respectfully,  Dave B.
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http://dcbenergy.com/

Mary B

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2011, 02:41:56 PM »
When you said you had to move the magnet arrays apart do to mismatch gave me an idea. Have you considered a variable spaced magnet rotor alternator that would respond with the changing wind conditions and available power?

electrondady1

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2011, 08:29:11 PM »
"you will only be selling to a very small group of peers. That being people who love the look and have plenty of money to spend."

i think that bears some examination.
i won't mind selling to people who have a lot of money to spend and like the way verticals look.
in fact that could be considered a target market .

Madscientist267

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2011, 11:16:53 PM »
Quote
i won't mind selling to people who have a lot of money to spend and like the way verticals look.
in fact that could be considered a target market .

Eeek... that almost sounds... wrong?

I hope you would at least not be tangling up in the "snake oil" aspect of it.

As one of the guys at work put it today... "&#%k upselling, I'd rather be honest."

I tend to agree with that sentiment. Sleeping with myself is something that I have to do, and my conscience doesn't allow me to when I've been "shady" with someone.

Tell me you'd at least be realistic with the numbers...

"Here's a 10 foot wide, 18 foot tall VAWT, that dances like a swirling rainbow that would look PERFECT in your back yard. You'll get 50 watts out of it if a hurricane ever comes. I hope you don't mind..."

Know whadda mean? :)

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

electrondady1

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2011, 08:52:18 AM »
"I hope you would at least not be tangling up in the "snake oil" aspect of it."

oh no nothing like that.
in fact yesterday i was being threatened with a law suit on another wind forum because
i was insisting on honesty.
 
i'm poor and painfully honest .
 i made my living custom painting and decorating  rich peoples country homes.
many of the ones i came to know, love the environment and want to be green.

a vertical mill sweeping 180 sq ft ought to do  a bit better than 50 watts.









Madscientist267

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2011, 12:38:09 PM »
Quote
better than 50 watts

Touche, but I didn't even try to do any real math - point was to drive the "honest" part of the marketing home.

Standard practice seems to be provide wind tunnel (theoretical) results to rooftop (actual) application.

They don't line up.

You know that. I know that. The con artists know that.

The customer doesn't.

They get a turbine that doesn't do what it was promised, spread the word to their friends, and the chain reaction of bad publicity for wind continues.

Honestly, it's the whole reason I haven't done much more than experiment with "pinwheel" turbines of my own. I know that I don't have a way to put them where they need to be to perform, so I don't waste my time and money on it.

Someone with only money and no knowledge doesn't have any idea that this is where the problem is, and buys one anyway.

Then again, this isn't anything you guys all don't already know; I'm preaching to the choir here...  ::)

Moral is, if the marketing would have been honest to start with, people that ARE in a position to have these things installed somewhere would have exactly what they paid for, went into it knowing it's limitations, and not gotten screwed by some clown just trying to make money.

There's nothing wrong with making money from it - just don't jack people over in the process of getting it. :)

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

DamonHD

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2011, 12:47:53 PM »
If someone *knows* that they are buying a combination of artwork and mechanism and not just the most industrially-efficient solution, like buying a Ferrari rather than a Ford, that is fine too.

Not everyone wants the "best" solution from an engineering point of view, and frankly if a really cool looking VAWT could be persuaded to turn at all on my tiny plot I've love one as a talking point.  I keep my MotorWind mainly for that reason for example, while having several kWp of solar on my roof.

Now if we could only divert some of the money people waste on self-confidence-substitute SUVs into 10%-efficient but pretty VAWTs, the world would be a better place...  B^>

Rgds

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itsandbits

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2011, 04:49:08 PM »
I don't know why this poster hasn't been banned and his postings wiped from the site totally in light of the type of comments he has made in some of his posts. I know if I was the moderator I would have, but at least those that are willing to actually look at all the info/posts/videos/claims, referred to in his rants, will see what he is trying to pull by pretending to be a victim, but you have to look a little deeper than the last post and this is what people like him rely on; the fact that we don't have the time or energy, and it is not worth the energy till you are the investor or the person that buys a product that they have been led to believe does one thing but delivers quite another. Then you'll be howling. Look and listen to all the claims and then figure it out for yourself.

TomW

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2011, 07:51:40 PM »
I don't know why this poster hasn't been banned and his postings wiped from the site totally in light of the type of comments he has made in some of his posts. I know if I was the moderator I would have, but at least those that are willing to actually look at all the info/posts/videos/claims, referred to in his rants, will see what he is trying to pull by pretending to be a victim, but you have to look a little deeper than the last post and this is what people like him rely on; the fact that we don't have the time or energy, and it is not worth the energy till you are the investor or the person that buys a product that they have been led to believe does one thing but delivers quite another. Then you'll be howling. Look and listen to all the claims and then figure it out for yourself.


Exactly what I was trying to say earlier but the kinder, gentler aspect since my retirement apparently doesn't have the inclination to uphold truth and honesty.

And you are correct the whole "I am the victim" gimmick has apparently fooled everyone.

Tom

Madscientist267

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2011, 12:59:24 PM »
I wouldn't say "fooled".

Just not racing to put it in the chair, so to speak.

This one is borderline, sitting in the grey area between "look at this" and "send me money".

It doesn't completely fit one mold or the other.

I would say until there is blatant disregard with the latter, it wouldn't seem fair to just start nuking.

Which may be why it hasn't happened yet. Shrug.

This is one of those cases where the reader can call it at any point and decide not to bother with going on.

The only reason I am against "willy-nilly" post nuking is because sometimes, I myself will get an idea from one, and if I ever decide to go back to have another look and it's gone, I want to wring someone's neck for it.

OTOH, I agree that if there weren't SOME kind of policy in place, the cons would run rampant and ruin the whole thing. Just like everything else, a balance is required.

For this, I vote that ATM, it's not an obnoxious or otherwise offending series of posts, although we have hijacked the crap out of it...  ::)

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

Bruce S

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2011, 10:56:41 AM »
Since the latest shake up and the forum having "issues".
We the mods, Admins, owners are still playing catch up.
OP, had you complained much earlier, I certainly would have done nothing less than split it off.
AS you can see his link and part or "his" youtube stuff was nuked.
MadS267 has it right, if "WE" just nuke stuff left and right then we'll be back to when people could remove entire stuff just 'casue their "feelings" got hurt.
It isn't or wasn't that hard to see where his posts were going.

AS you might see, as we pull our collective boots back on, we will be less forgiving when it comes to posts being hijacked.
BUT nuking posts on this new board needs to be done carefully, otherwise it will not be any better than the 1000s of otherones out there.
IN the future if you see someone hijacking your posts hit the ole report button.
WE the mods/Admins will ALL get the note, IF it's out of line we'll nuke it and let the offender know post haste. Too many of them they (They being ANYONE will get to go to read only, there are a few who have been put there already) then get banned if need be.
The deal is even those who get banned have in the past had something, no matter how little, to contribute.

Bruce S
 
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oneirondreamer

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2011, 03:59:59 PM »
@Madsci

yep I am neck deep, and enjoying it mostly.   

I agree, the VAWT, and small HAWT markets are filled with poor engineering and snake oil.   The VAWT markets are the worst, because if one comes along that does match the ROI of conventional small HAWT systems then it will be a huge success, so the opportunity for big profit is there, and that attracts snake oil, and opportunistic optimists, who sometimes think any problem can be solved with money, so take over a project like Helix, likely knowing it doesn't deliver, but assuming that some dollars and some iterative engineering will get them there.    As I see it most engineering is iterative, you make a series of small changes, one at a time, until you determine what works and what doesn't.   It's a great aproach to optimizing a working system.   Inventing is something quite different, and it's what I do, and I am great at it.   An issue is though that the first stabs at a totally new approach are very unlikely to show the potential of the system.   That's why for 4 years I have kept my mouth shut about this project.    Now, anybody who wants can read the report by Ian Ross (whom I have no association with) and understand what can be expected of conventional Savonius type systems, and then can view my moving platform video, and see, it's behaving way outside what any Savonius type system would be expected.   

I have gotten this far not just because it's a good looking mill, but because I have a new take on how VAWT's work.   I have high level engineers who agree that my theoretical model is different, and more likely to match reality that existing models of how VAWT's work.  The original Savonius turbine, was an attempt to make a self powering Flettner rotor.   Flettner rotors act like a pump and affect a much greater cross section of air, then their simple cross sectional area's.    This can be seen in the Nasa simulator I show, in the video watch closely as the rotor speed is increased to a TSR (no real tip, but same idea, outermost portion of cylinder).   The effect is dramatic, the rotor pulls air from a long distance away, 90 deg from flow direction and creates a very high velocity flow, close to it's surface.   This is why a high solidity VAWT, like mine, that has a TSR of substantially greater than 1 is different than the Windside, the Helix, and the Gus.    All those rotors have fractional TSR's, Windsides released optimally loaded TSR is .3-.4 (they have since removed a lot of data from there site).    Helix made one statement that I could find which indicated an unloaded TSR of .7.     

I respectfully disagree with Dan B, who says that success will be determined by side by side testing against a HAWT.    The market for a silent, aesthetic VAWT, with a very long lifetime, I believe relates more to the Photo Voltaic market, where people already are willing to pay an enormous premium for their watts.   I do agree entirely, that just pretty won't do it.

@MaryAlana, My design goal is a single moving part system, 1 set of bearings inside the turbine, a turbine blade with an integrated magnet array that rotates over a stationary set of windings.   Yes I have considered a variable spacing magnet array, and for those interested I would suggest looking at the UofCalifornia patents around a fixed distance array, with one set of magnet plates that rotates slightly, "shorting" the flux lines, and changing the characteristics of the alt.    Who knows I may use something like it if I have too, however I think the MPP tracking with a few set points based on rpm (htz) will give very similar results all solid state.   I do think that is worth keeping in mind that a Cadillac, and a Ford produce very similar results, but people are very willing to pay a premium sometimes.

And Tom W,  I'm not a victim, I'm doing great thanks, enjoying this to some extent, though I'd rather spend less time reading rants and more time gleaning information and seeing suggestions like MaryAlana's however I know that those who Don't, like to kick those who DO.

Bruce S

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2011, 04:28:47 PM »
OID;
 I spent a lot of time looking at this post and where it went.
I am pretty certain the "bad Blood" came from the early posts that were put here from you that did not have you're affiliation to the company "yours".
WE don't mind it tooo much bringing a VAWT to the forum for honest opinions.
However where the bad blood came in was the not wanting to post solid real-world numbers.
THIS is what gets people's ire going.
I for one believe there is a place for VAWTs, my backyard for instance, since the city forbids HAWTs, but they have valid reasons, I've read the law and it reads like someone has built a DIY'er or two.
Having said all this, the attitude that comes across from you not wanting to post numbers, just makes people even more suspicious.
There have been others in the old forum site that came in giving tons of numbers asking for help , only for the members here to find out they're looking to patent their stuff, OKAY by me if they want to, but be upfront about it.
That's all we're asking.
One "public" vendor not tooo many years back even copied Ed's wing with not even sending him a Christmas card or online thank you.
 Ed has fended off most nay say'ers with his designs and still helps out. This short history leson may help you understand why so many went into defensive mode.

I could be wrong.
Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

birdhouse

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2011, 05:47:12 PM »
OID-
Quote
The market for a silent, aesthetic VAWT, with a very long lifetime, I believe relates more to the Photo Voltaic market, where people already are willing to pay an enormous premium for their watts.   

i think you may be mistaken on this point. the price per watt of solar has gone down a bunch over the years.  unless you live in a very windy location and build the turbine yourself, solar ends up coming out on top as far as Kwh/month, per dollar spent.  especially when you factor in tower costs and maint. 

my most recent solar purchase was 490 watts for $442.00 USD delivered. 

i do like your idea of having the magnets attached right to the bottom of the turbine, and the stator sitting below it.  very simplistic...  less to break/go wrong. 

i believe another reason your welcome was less than stellar, is very few people have built VAWTS that actually put out decent amounts of electricity.  we see many lawn ornaments, but very few actually work.  even the ones that do work, many times put out such tiny amounts of power that they're almost a joke. 

so after seeing your vawt spin unloaded just like the hundreds on youtube, then refusing to give output numbers (which is totally your choice and that's fine)  it makes is very difficult to take your turbine seriously.  i do believe that your VAWT is different than many out there just due to the high (unloaded) rotational speeds shown in you videos.  it obviously has some get up and go, but as you very well know, unloaded and loaded are very different beasts. 

one question for you:  do you have any sort of ballpark on retail pricing for this unit?  i'm just curious more than anything. 

i hope this thing puts out some major juice so you can prove us wrong!

adam

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Re: New VAWT, the ART Turbine
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2011, 08:15:25 PM »
I respectfully disagree with Dan B, who says that success will be determined by side by side testing against a HAWT.    The market for a silent, aesthetic VAWT, with a very long lifetime, I believe relates more to the Photo Voltaic market, where people already are willing to pay an enormous premium for their watts.   I do agree entirely, that just pretty won't do it.

OK.  Fine.

How loud is YOUR personal HAWT?

How loud it is kind of sounds to me like your HAWT is based on BS claims of HAWTs being 'loud'.

My design goal is a single moving part system, 1 set of bearings inside the turbine, a turbine blade with an integrated magnet array that rotates over a stationary set of windings. 

wow
revolutionary insightfull stuff there
Might want to get a copy of "The Dan's"  and "Hugh's"  books... all of them.

And Tom W,  I'm not a victim, I'm doing great thanks, enjoying this to some extent, though I'd rather spend less time reading rants and more time gleaning information and seeing suggestions like MaryAlana's however I know that those who Don't, like to kick those who DO.

If that VAWT ever makes as much power as TomW's turbines, I will be impressed.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller