Author Topic: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?  (Read 27421 times)

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Flux

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2011, 04:01:41 PM »
Here is another good link that covers the torus . It's a bit more practical and down to earth than some of the other links.

http://www-eng.lbl.gov/~rasson/windsail/alternator/Pb_003_2.PDF

Flux

bob golding

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2011, 04:34:01 PM »
thanks spar, plenty of reading.know a lot more than i did a few days ago. i am waiting for a quote from a UK supplier who has taken over the hole left by carpenters closing  their UK operation. so far from what i calculated it is very doable. extra weight should not be a problem around 12/15 kgs should be able to manage that without any mods to my tower lifting system.
next question is number of coils and magnets. i am limited to what i have already which is 1.2mm wire. i have around 6 kgs of that. i need 24 vols and my blades are 10 foot. i am in a high wind area so average wind is around 5m/s.  been awhile since i built my last turbine so forgotten most of the formulas.

while i was giving my rotors there final coat of epoxy it occurred to me  that i might be able to use my existing magnets. they are the 1/8 wedges ed used to sell. i have been stacking them it try and get more power so have them stacked 2 deep. i have only  cleaned up one rotor disc as the back one was not too bad. so thought if i just use one layer of magnets and save the others i might get a bit more life out of them. i know i will be down on power, but in the winter i usually end up dumping most of it anyway.  with only 1/8 thick magnets i might not saturate the core of the torus design. this will be after i clean up the back rotor and remove the stacked magnets of course. i probably wont be doing this till the spring as the field will be too wet to drive on soon. that Norwegian paper said they were getting 0.5T with a 10mm core from similar magnets.
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

SparWeb

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2011, 12:35:47 AM »
Y'know I just realized that we're here posting pictures and talking about the toroidal design used by Proven, but I don't think anybody's mentioned how sad it is that his company has fallen to bankruptcy.  Product recalls are always trouble, and business with slim margins like WT's gives these risks big teeth.  I hope Gordon lands on his feet, and the customers with his equipment can receive support in the future from "Kingspan" (who has picked up Proven's assets).

Flux, that last link covers a lot of ground - miles wide/inches deep.  Anyway the references page should keep Bob G busy for a while!   :)

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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B529

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2011, 08:26:57 AM »
Sparweb, it's my understanding Gorden Proven has no longer been with the company due to health reason for quite some time, Hugh may know more.

I would speculate the problems with 15K machine did them in?

I'm glad to here Kingspan is keeping the 2.5K and 6K machines going. Even with having a problem with the stator on my own machine, of the machines available today it is the only machine I'll install in my backyard. Have a WT2500 going on 6yrs w/o a problem.

bob golding

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2011, 10:46:46 AM »
thanks spar. ;D already read most of them. just trying to  fire up the ol' brain to remember how to do  the equations. not having much luck on the cores yet. got one quote for £330 UKP for one core. unfortunately that company  only make them in mu metal which is a bit over the top for this app.
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

bob golding

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2011, 01:52:51 PM »
just had a reread of this companies products. i rejected it at firsr because they dont do i offs, but noticed that they sell cores made from strips. lots of info on adjusting the stacking factor to allow for the increases leakage. this seems to be the way to go if you cant get wound cores as  flux has already pointed out of course!!

http://www.isomatic.co.uk/toroidalcores.htm
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

bob golding

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2011, 09:21:28 PM »
just had a reread of this companies products. i rejected it at firsr because they dont do i offs, but noticed that they sell cores made from strips. lots of info on adjusting the stacking factor to allow for the increases leakage. this seems to be the way to go if you cant get wound cores as  flux has already pointed out of course!!

http://www.isomatic.co.uk/toroidalcores.htm

just found another useful link.

http://www.skif.biz/files/7d6e86.pdf
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

bob golding

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2011, 05:16:06 PM »
just had a reread of this companies products. i rejected it at firsr because they dont do i offs, but noticed that they sell cores made from strips. lots of info on adjusting the stacking factor to allow for the increases leakage. this seems to be the way to go if you cant get wound cores as  flux has already pointed out of course!!

http://www.isomatic.co.uk/toroidalcores.htm

just found another useful link.

http://www.skif.biz/files/7d6e86.pdf

just been offered a core around the right size free. thats the sort of price i like. all i need to do now is make the darn thing. 3.1/2 inches high 51/2 OD 21/2 ID.
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

kevbo

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #74 on: October 28, 2011, 02:11:01 PM »
If you want to experiment, that metal tape that they use to strap stuff down on pallets is just mild steel, and would be easier to wind into a torroid than winding copper coils.  Not as low loss as silicon iron, but it would probably work about the same magnetically, just a little more loss to heat.  You could pick up a roll at most industrial supply places like Graingers, Nuline, etc.  Probably want to coil it with a layer of insulation to keep the layers from shorting...scotch tape would work (maybe temperature limited, though) , or you could spray paint it.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 03:58:47 PM by kevbo »

ghurd

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #75 on: October 28, 2011, 09:40:12 PM »
If you want to experiment, that metal tape that they use to strap stuff down on pallets is just mild steel, and would be easier to wind into a torroid than winding copper coils.  Not as low loss as silicon iron, but it would probably work about the same magnetically, just a little more loss to heat.  You could pick up a roll at most industrial supply places like Graingers, Nuline, etc.  Probably want to coil it with a layer of insulation to keep the layers from shorting...scotch tape would work (maybe temperature limited, though) , or you could spray paint it.

I was told to aneal it first. (throw it in a fire, wait until morning to get it out)
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Flux

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #76 on: October 29, 2011, 05:07:22 AM »
The stuff we used to have here seemed to be a fairly high carbon steel, it was certainly harder than mild steel.

I agree that anyone trying it should anneal it and the oxide formed will be more than adequate to insulate it.

I suspect it may be quite lossy even if annealed but well worth a try, but i believe most of these things were tried and rejected with the early single rotor axials. I haven't seen the stuff here for years, we have some glass epoxy stuff or similar that is used for crate banding but it may still be available from suppliers. It would be the ideal width but perhaps rather too thick for a poor grade material.

I should be interested in any results but I would suggest keeping flux density fairly low due to the likely losses.

Flux

windstuffnow

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #77 on: November 16, 2011, 12:07:55 AM »
Hey everyone... Bob sent me an email about this thread so I thought I'd pop in and see what was going on...   I purchase silicon steel on rolls from Michigan Electrical Steel in Detroit, Michigan.   They normally sell it on 80# rolls which is  quite a bit of material and would make a reasonable batch of toroidal cores.   It would seem you could use some bailing wire ( iron wire - fence wire ) to accomplish the same thing.   That stuff is fairly cheap and you can get some pretty big rolls.   

I used to buy the large 8 inch ring ceramics and cut them into segments using a tile saw they were quite cheap, not sure what the cost is now.   I've been tossing around a few idea's as well since the cost of neo's went through the roof.   Digging through a lot of old old patents, quite amazing what they accomplished back then.    Here is some old Tesla Tech that looks fairly easy to accomplish... K is iron wire wound into a slot in the rotor and the coils are wound around pins.    They used a zig zag coil winding for the field in place of magnets but the idea is there to ponder... 

Have fun !
Windstuff Ed
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artv

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #78 on: November 16, 2011, 04:57:07 AM »
Hi Ed,....Would it be possible to get the patent #, I would like to read it...
The  R  looks like a spark gap.....Any Ideas how to make one...
Nice to see your still around....artv

windstuffnow

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #79 on: November 16, 2011, 11:15:35 AM »
Hi Ed,....Would it be possible to get the patent #, I would like to read it...
The  R  looks like a spark gap.....Any Ideas how to make one...
Nice to see your still around....artv

The patent for that unit is 447,920.    The one similar to the axials using field coils instead of magnets is 487,796.   Others using the toroidal method include 381,968  382,280  390,414  390,721 and 487,796.

I started reading Tesla's works several years back, building some of his experiments and have been amazed by what he accomplished.   

Have fun!
Windstuff Ed
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artv

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2011, 10:04:15 PM »
Ed ,..first thanks for the #'s,.. I've seen most of them,.....I briefly read over the ones I have'nt seen....
I believe Tesla knew alot more than he shared ,but laid down the basic's for anybody to find......
He showed the first steps .....left it up to us to find the next,...
People are happy with what he gave us,..because it was a major accomplishment....a big step forward,...
But I think it's just the first step of many to come......
Oh and by the way it was finding your site on the internet that sent me on this journey,....which led me here.....
forever hooked...........artv

windstuffnow

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Re: Rewinding a Proven stator? Hugh?
« Reply #81 on: November 18, 2011, 10:28:09 PM »
Ed ,..first thanks for the #'s,.. I've seen most of them,.....I briefly read over the ones I have'nt seen....
I believe Tesla knew alot more than he shared ,but laid down the basic's for anybody to find......
He showed the first steps .....left it up to us to find the next,...
People are happy with what he gave us,..because it was a major accomplishment....a big step forward,...
But I think it's just the first step of many to come......
Oh and by the way it was finding your site on the internet that sent me on this journey,....which led me here.....
forever hooked...........artv

Great!  Glad I helped in some small way.   I think tesla shared all he could at the time.   After the Colorado Springs event JP Morgan pretty much destroyed him because of his greed and power and made sure a large portion of tesla's work was erased from history.   If you understand the one, single event, that moved tesla away from motors and generators you'll be well on your way to re-discovery.
Windstuff Ed