Author Topic: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150  (Read 70715 times)

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vawtwindy

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2011, 02:10:19 AM »
not trying to deviate the topic for this dumb query, if you feel so, pls accept my apologies.

3 Ohm resistors wired wye? what wil be the role these resistors?
endless hurdles.

Watt

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2011, 03:06:27 AM »
not trying to deviate the topic for this dumb query, if you feel so, pls accept my apologies.

3 Ohm resistors wired wye? what wil be the role these resistors?

My take.

Resistive load while voltage is high at his preset high limit for his Classic.  If the classic has too many volts it will stop controlling/charging his battery until voltage is returned to xx.  The classic will unload the turbine if voltage goes too high ( limited self destruction built into the classic ) and free wheel the turbine in to distruction if he does not take this precaution.  

6 ohms per phase when 3 resistors are wired in wye ( Star ).  If say 140 volts phase to phase is applied to 6 ohms and 23 amps can be sustained, ~3200+ watts are possible and will be dissipated by the resistors but only until the lower voltage limit preset into the classic is reached and the classic begins to control again.  Of course, as voltage drops per load, resistor wattage will be decreased.  Ohm's law

Kick me if I'm wrong Chris as I may not be understanding.  I know you touched on some of this in your earlier posts.  

Turbine leads down tower = 3 and using a 2 contactor relay/switch/device to take 2 of those phases, one each to the load end of the contactor, the other phase left branched to the source end and once activated will in effect short all phases via resistors connected to the straight lines front to end in below stick figure ;D.  Kinda like:      

 ---( one phase )----<==[ line contactor load ]==( one each of two phases )==

If that makes since.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 03:56:18 AM by Watt »

boB

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2011, 03:23:08 AM »
not trying to deviate the topic for this dumb query, if you feel so, pls accept my apologies.

3 Ohm resistors wired wye? what wil be the role these resistors?

Resistive load while voltage is high at his preset high limit for his Classic.  If the classic has too many volts it will stop controling/charging his battery until voltage is returned xx.  The classic will unload the turbine if voltage goes too high ( limited self destruction built into the classic ) and free wheel the turbine in to distruction if he does not take this precaution.  

6 ohms per phase when 3 resistors are wired in wye ( Star ).  If say 140 volts is applied to 6 ohms, ~3200+ watts are possible and will be dissipated by the resistors but only until the lower limit is reached and the classic begins to control again.  Of course, as voltage drops per load, resistor wattage will be decreased.  Ohm's law.

Kick me if I'm wrong Chris.  I know you touched on some of this in your earlier posts.  

You got it...

It can also be good for the turbine, keeping a minimum load and maximum RPM.  Can reduce wear and tear on the turbine as well as keeping the noise down.

boB


« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 03:24:47 AM by boB »

Watt

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2011, 04:07:07 AM »
not trying to deviate the topic for this dumb query, if you feel so, pls accept my apologies.

3 Ohm resistors wired wye? what wil be the role these resistors?

Resistive load while voltage is high at his preset high limit for his Classic.  If the classic has too many volts it will stop controling/charging his battery until voltage is returned xx.  The classic will unload the turbine if voltage goes too high ( limited self destruction built into the classic ) and free wheel the turbine in to distruction if he does not take this precaution.  

6 ohms per phase when 3 resistors are wired in wye ( Star ).  If say 140 volts is applied to 6 ohms, ~3200+ watts are possible and will be dissipated by the resistors but only until the lower limit is reached and the classic begins to control again.  Of course, as voltage drops per load, resistor wattage will be decreased.  Ohm's law.

Kick me if I'm wrong Chris.  I know you touched on some of this in your earlier posts.  

You got it...

It can also be good for the turbine, keeping a minimum load and maximum RPM.  Can reduce wear and tear on the turbine as well as keeping the noise down.

boB




I sure like my Classic Bob.   ;D  I have one on order for my solar panels. ( not to say it makes good since at the moment with my few panels but I will be able to add more panels as funds are available )  I've disconnected my turbine just to see how the classic worked with my odd ball panel quantity.  Wow, awesome.  

Back to the regular scheduled programming.  

Sorry Chris, I had to.  I remember suggesting the classic with your ferrites in another thread you had posted in.  I was worried of the " MPPT will make no difference " comment.  I was worried but you've given me hope.  Thank you.   :P Ferrites on the way.......
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 04:09:49 AM by Watt »

tecker

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2011, 07:50:32 AM »
Something to be said for duration in the rotor . The ferrite holds up in a attraction configuration but demagnetize fast with a hard repulse .  A remagnitize is not al hard to build . Maxumum operating temp is around 300 c but they loose a little under constant high temp . That is a very nice  rise on power with the controller . 

kitestrings

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2011, 10:46:55 AM »
When we get the three day blow now I just turn on/leave on a few more lights, and/or we do a bit more laundry.  Seems simple enough.

Yep, I concur, balanced load, wye 140Vl should hit the thing with about 3 kW.  One thing I haven't gotten a feel for is how much the resistance increases on these air-cooled resistors as they heat up.  I know Nekit in his post ~ 'My 17' so far' (diaries) is seeing something quite a bit lower than what the calculated load might be.  Although this may be due to a lower than design-case voltage.   I suspect a bit of testing will allow you(us) to hone in on the best values.  Most of the stock edge-wound power resistors are rated only to about 1 kW, so you'd be pushing that limit with three, but I think you said you were planning to make yours. 

Quote
Yes indeed, I did misunderstand.  What are you going to use for a load on the AC clipper, and how are you going to match it to your turbine power?

We've got 2- 250 Classics.  I'm expecting to use 6- 1 kW ~6.8 ohm (pairs in parallel) resistors for about 5.5 kW at 140VAC.  Probably test a bit with some wire-wound broomsticks (well likely something less flamable).  I'm also expecting the votage (& thus power) to drop off fairly sharply, but generally looking for a hard stall as apposed to a balance point if that makes sense.

Here's a couple pics of our rectifier box.  There are two isolated rectifiers. The diodes are now isolated and soldered up, most of the wiring done (I don't have an up to date picture), but you can see the Omron, the 'clip' relay on the right; the hi-limit on the left.  Both are 75A SS relays.
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~ks

kitestrings

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2011, 11:04:20 AM »
[quotein the event something goes awry to cause the clipper to activate][/quote]

Chris, one more thought...

My understanding is if you start to run up against the CC limit - maybe just because the the batteries are full and/or diverison is satified, that the voltage rises rapidly.  It may be short lived in some cases, but may not necessarily be an indication of something 'wrong'.  Ryan, watt or boB might have some thoughts.

~kitestrings

Watt

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2011, 01:52:19 PM »
[quotein the event something goes awry to cause the clipper to activate]

Chris, one more thought...

My understanding is if you start to run up against the CC limit - maybe just because the the batteries are full and/or diverison is satified, that the voltage rises rapidly.  It may be short lived in some cases, but may not necessarily be an indication of something 'wrong'.  Ryan, watt or boB might have some thoughts.

~kitestrings
[/quote]

I'm not quite sure I understand your concern.  As you say, this still may not be a " problem " but, you have to understand that once the classic goes over maximum voltage plus battery voltage the magic smoke could be released from the classic.  All this is to protect the classic and turbine.

kitestrings

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2011, 02:42:32 PM »
Watt,

No, I agree entirely, I think it emphsizes why a clipper is indeed needed.  My understanding is the CCs have no tolerance for working outside their rated parameters.  All I'm suggesting is that it is not necessarily an indication of something wrong (as Chris suggested earlier), rather a likely, if not predictable - albeit infrequent, in his case - ocurrance.

~kitestrings


ChrisOlson

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2011, 11:23:25 AM »
Hi guys,

Getting caught up here after Christmas.  This turbine I'm building is designed to run at 116.5 open volts, 100 loaded volts @ 30 amps output (3 kW) and the internal resistance of the stator came out at .55 ohm.  I didn't get time to post photos before Christmas, but this is a photo of one of the rotors on my test turbine head when I was checking the balance on it - I spun it up to about 2,000 rpm:



And this is the stator all wired up and ready for casting - hopefully get this done in the next couple of days:



I expect this 3.2 meter machine to be considerably more powerful than the 3.8 meter machines I've built with ferrite generators.  Based on all the testing I've done it will quite easily have a sustained output capacity of 2.6 kW with the generator running at better than 85% power efficiency.  Even at 3 kW output (100 volts @ 30 amps), I calculate the power dissipated in the stator to be 495 watts, for a power efficiency of 85.8%.

Assuming the blades run at 35% efficiency in higher wind speeds, which they will pretty easily achieve, this turbine will have the sustained output capacity to over-amp the Classic controller in decent wind.  The controller will be protected by an auto-reset circuit breaker to prevent over amping it.  If that breaker trips, then the turbine goes unloaded and the open voltage will skyrocket.  That's where the clipper comes into the picture - it loads the turbine independent of the controller to keep it under control until the auto-reset breaker resets and connects the DC load again.

This turbine will be going on my test tower that has 8/4 cable on a 90 foot drop (only using three legs of the cable with this one), and it has 4/0 aluminum buried underground from the rectifier at the tower base to the battery shed/power bus.  The resistance of the DC run is so close to zero that there will be virtually no loss at only 30 amps.  The resistance in the AC drop on the tower will only dissipate about 102 watts @ 30 amps.

The blades will put about 3.6 kW to the shaft at 13 m/s.  The machine would then develop ~3.1 kW at the calculated efficiency.  So if the turbine hits 3 kW actual output in a good sustained wind, it'll be getting a good solid 2.9 kW to the controller, which is over its amp limit with the bank at 30 volts.

Theoretically, the machine should furl before any of this happens.  But tail wagging furling is not a positive means of power control.  So it's very likely that in powerful gusty winds it'll over-amp the controller during power spikes and unload the turbine.  Then the clipper kicks in to keep it loaded and under control until the auto-reset breaker resets.  I have to design the clipper load so it pulls the TSR of the rotor down to reduce its power so when the breaker resets there's no big amp surge when the turbine goes back to work on the DC load.

All the above is one of the main reasons I decided to downsize the machine to 3.2 meters.

So I'm looking at the whole project from a different viewpoint than most guys who have been using Classics on Otherpower or Piggot 10 foot neo machines.  I'm running it at a little lower voltage because I don't need to push it up to 140 to get better than 85% generator efficiency.  And I will have no problem keeping the rotor at TSR 6-6.5 thruout the entire power curve.  The biggest challenge, that I see, is how to keep it from over-amping the controller at the top end during powerful gusty winds.  That's why I have decided to use the Aux 1 output to drive a mechanical relay to bring the clipper online, instead of using Aux 2 with a SSR to "regulate" the voltage at the high end with PWM.  I feel I need to get a bit of experience with it before I try "Ryan's Clipper" with a SSR on Aux 2.  Once I figure out where the voltage would have to be regulated to keep the output at reasonable levels, then I'll swap out the mechanical relay with a SSR and run it with Aux 2.  What I'm a little afraid of is that with the gen efficiency that high at full output, that the machine could still over-amp the controller even with the voltage "clamped" at 100 volts.  After I fly it a bit and get a "feel" for how it will act in stronger winds, then I'll be more brave with it    :)
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2011, 06:51:14 PM »
Got the stator done just an hour ago.  There's plenty of room in this stator for more wire, but for this application I don't need it.  The stator ended up 10.5 mm thick wound with 45 turns of 13 AWG wire.



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Chris


Dave B

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2011, 07:15:48 PM »
Great Chris ! I can't wait to see this one run and designing it from the ground up to work with the Classic besides you will have plenty to play with. Your R&D is very helpful for the Classic guys and any other companies selling stepped load controllers for wind. I still don't know how you have time to do everything and post it besides.  Dave B. 
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jarrod9155

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2011, 07:53:37 PM »
Nice job on the stator very clean

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2011, 08:08:25 PM »
Great Chris ! I can't wait to see this one run and designing it from the ground up to work with the Classic besides you will have plenty to play with. Your R&D is very helpful for the Classic guys and any other companies selling stepped load controllers for wind. I still don't know how you have time to do everything and post it besides.  Dave B. 

I've been cooped up for four days and ate way too much food.  Have to do something.

I will mention something about the coil shape in this thing; "conventional wisdom" says to make the hole in the coil the size of the magnet.  I found that doing that only gets about one more volt.  But it adds a lot of resistance to the winding.  That's why I'm using the wedge shaped coils with those big mags.
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ghurd

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2011, 09:42:41 AM »
"conventional wisdom" is about direct driven neo and lower voltages.
But WilliB showed the same thing many times.

How big is the hole in the coil?
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TomW

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2011, 09:58:46 AM »
"conventional wisdom" is about direct driven neo and lower voltages.
But WilliB showed the same thing many times.

Context does matter. Glad you pointed out the  [to some of us] obvious.

Tom

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2011, 10:39:34 AM »
"conventional wisdom" is about direct driven neo and lower voltages.
But WilliB showed the same thing many times.

How big is the hole in the coil?

The "conventional wisdom" on the hole size in the coils will apply whether it be direct drive or geared.  What I'm saying is that the "conventional widsom", from what I've tested, does not yield better performance.  It increases the winding resistance a lot, but you don't get much more volts from making the hole the size of the magnet.  The tradeoff for one or two less volts and less resistance works out better than more resistance and one or two more volts per phase.  I've also developed a rule of thumb for these ferrite gens that I don't use more than 50 turns in any one coil.  The length of the wire adds up too fast (and resistance) on the outside turns when you make coils too fat.

With neos you can get away with just about anything.  With ferrites you can't if you want a generator that performs decent.  If you take a neo design and try to build it with ferrites the resistance will be so high you won't get any power out of it.  The only way I could get the resistance down to .55 ohm in this thing, as big and heavy as it is (compared to a neo unit), is by using the gearing to spin it to 1,000 rpm.

The pin dimensions in the winder for this thing are 46 mm top to bottom, 45 mm wide at the top, 13 mm wide at the bottom.  The mags are 51 x 51 mm square.  I'm "wasting" the corners of the mags and getting about the same flux in the air gap (and voltage) as I would if I used wedge mags, is what it amounts to.  But the cost of getting wedge mags custom made is not justified when I can get the square mags for only $1.84 each.  And the additional weight of the square mags vs wedge only amounts to about .5 kg, or a little over one pound per rotor.
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ghurd

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2011, 10:59:03 AM »
From what I recall about WilliB's work, I think you'd do a bit better with a bit wider bottom (the 13mm part).

Also, just a stray thought, quoting "conventional wisdom" concepts, (effective) surface area of the magnet, turns around the surface area, and there is a lot of available space between the coils.
Might try the same number of turns, with the same stator thickness, a gauge or 2 larger wire, and the exact same hole for an apples-to-apples comparison.

Then try it (same number of turns, with the same stator thickness, a gauge or 2 larger wire), with the 13mm opened up to say 25mm.  If I understand WilliB's work, pretty sure that would be a decent improvement.

I think WilliB also would say the magnets are too close together, which could make my line of thinking way off base... I don't know.

I love spending your money on more copper.  hehe
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2011, 12:22:51 PM »
Then try it (same number of turns, with the same stator thickness, a gauge or 2 larger wire), with the 13mm opened up to say 25mm.  If I understand WilliB's work, pretty sure that would be a decent improvement.

Nope, it's not.  This is the second one of these 16 pole units that I've built.  The other one had wider spacing between the mags with 375 mm rotors.  The pin spacing at the bottom was 22 mm on that one.  The internal resistance came out to .61 ohm and 8.45 rpm/volt.  I got 118.3 open volts @ 1,000 rpm from it.

On this one, which is an improvement over the first experiment, I cut the rotors down to 355 mm and scrunched the mags in closer.  I got 8.58 rpm/volt from this one with the 13 mm spacing on the bottom pins @ .55 ohm.  I get 116.5 open volts from this one @ 1,000 rpm.

If you do the calculations, the first one yielded:
118.3 - 100 / .61 = 30.0 amps and the power dissipated in the stator was 549 watts, or 84.5% efficiency @ 3 kW output.

This one yields:
116.5 - 100 / .55 = 30.0 amps and the power dissipated in the stator is 495 watts, or 85.8% efficiency @ 3.0 kW output.  Plus it has a lower polar moment of inertia and a lighter rotating assembly.

Quote
I think WilliB also would say the magnets are too close together, which could make my line of thinking way off base... I don't know.

Yeah, I know.  That's what the "conventional wisdom" says.  That's not what I've found with my experimentation however.  Sure, by using the "conventional wisdom" you get more voltage from the setup, per turn.  But you have to figure the rest to see what the actual efficiency is to determine if that extra voltage actually does anything.

In either setup, I got room for bigger wire.  But I don't need bigger wire in this one with MPPT.  What I need is a low polar moment of inertia, less weight in the rotating assembly, and about 85% efficiency at full power.  It took a lot of experimenting to arrive at a combination that gives me the specs I needed for the 3.2 meter rotor.

So what I'm say is, you have to look at the whole picture.  Concentrating on, and getting hung up on, a couple aspects like mag spacing and coil shape - trying to use "conventional wisdom" to design the thing - may not work out in the end.  I was looking at things like how much power does it take from the rotor to spin this thing up to 1,000 rpm.  And how much power does the rotating assembly store in its mass when it's spun up to operating speed.  How fast can it accelerate, and how much torque does it take to accelerate it, to take advantage of increased power available in gusts, and hence total kWh production at the end of the day.

If you space the mags wider, sure you'll get better voltage performance from the mag surface area.  But will it actually produce more power at the end of the day when you take into consideration the higher polar moment of inertia in the rotating assembly?  Under ideal conditions with a constant wind speed and perfectly clean air thru the rotor it might.  But in the real world on a real tower in real wind, it won't because acceleration time and how much power is "wasted" to get the rotating assembly up to speed,  is important to total power production.  And that's where experience doing this sort of thing comes in.  You can slap a geared drive on anything and make it go around.  Tweaking it for peak performance is another matter.
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This is my coil winder cheek piece.  It keeps getting more holes in it all the time.  LOL!

The holes on the outside of where the bottom roll pins are now are the ones I used for the first 16 pole ferrite gen I built.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 01:41:41 PM by ChrisOlson »

Watt

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2011, 01:58:54 PM »
Chris

I'm sure you've said before what type of resin you use for your stators but I can't seem to remember or find out by searching.  Those stators seem to come out nice for sure and I just wonder what you use to make them so nice and bubble free.  

One more question.  How are you able to calculate current from your open voltage and resistance measurements?  Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 02:34:23 PM by Watt »

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2011, 02:57:20 PM »
I'm sure you've said before what type of resin you use for your stators but I can't seem to remember or find out by searching.  Those stators seem to come out nice for sure and I just wonder what you use to make them so nice and bubble free.  

Just regular old Bondo fiberglass resin.  But I don't use much.  I think I used about 20 ounces in this whole stator.  I only put about half the recommended amount of hardener in it so I got plenty of time to work with it.  I pour about half the resin in there and then start stuffing glass fiber in it and poking at it and pressing it in until the glass fiber is saturated and uses up all the resin.  Then put a little more resin in and keep poling glass in it.  At the end it's basically a big pile of mush with no liquid resin in there.  I put a piece of glass cloth over the top.  Then I put the cover on, throw a couple steel plates on it and put it in the press and smash it.  The press smashes the fiberglass cloth down into the wet glass underneath it and what looks like gorilla snot leaks out around the edges.

You get air bubbles from having too much liquid in the mold and not enough solids.  The air bubbles get trapped in the liquid because the stuff is not poked and prodded and pressed into place until they're all out.  The resin itself also does not transfer heat from the copper to the air very well.  Glass transfers heat really good.

I've had a couple where I didn't put enough hardener in and the glass ended up soft.  I threw them in the oven and baked 'em at 250 degrees for about an hour.  That fixed it.  But you have to do that when your wife isn't around and then spray lots of air freshener around in the house to get rid of the stink from baking stators.

Quote
One more question.  How are you able to calculate current from your open voltage and resistance measurements?  Thanks.

Ohm's Law.  amps = volts / ohms.  If you know the open voltage and the loaded voltage you can subtract them to get the "working" volts, then divide that by the resistance to know how much current it will produce.
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Watt

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2011, 03:17:51 PM »
Thanks Chris
The question regarding the current is based on my experience.  I've tried doing the math so many times to come up with current but remarkably, I have failed.  It seemed to me my actual current was based soley on just how much flux actually passed the coils.  I may infact have double the loaded voltage, unloaded.  Testing my alternator after assembly was the only way I could get actual current and was trying to get your secrets so I could experiment without actually casting the stator.  I've wasted mountains of copper lol. 

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2011, 04:32:21 PM »
Watt,

The amount of flux determines the rpm/volt with a specific winding, is all.  The amount of flux is determined by the strength of the magnets, the size of them, air gap, and maybe some other things.  At any one level of flux it will make one volt out of so many rpm's.  If you know that, and know what the loaded voltage and resistance is it will come out right on when you test it.

I arrive at how many turns to use based on my notes of what I've done before with various magnets and coil shapes and air gaps.  There's some way to calculate all that too, but I've never done it.  I either use a test coil, a test stator, or know what I'll get by referring to my notes on what I've gotten with other generators.  I got a pretty good collection of stators for different size rotors.  When I build one, even if it doesn't work out, I save it as long as it isn't burned out.  When I come up with a new configuration I want to try, using one of those stators to test voltage is more accurate than using a test coil.

As an example, Hugh dreamed up a cool 14 pole 12 coil three phase one time.  I looked at it and envisioned how I could do it in two phase by re-arranging the coils a little bit.  I stuck 14 magnets on a couple rotors and turned it at slow speed with an old 12 coil 48 volt test stator that I had in my collection, to see how it would work out, and the experiment told me I'd need more turns than what I wanted to put in it to make it work.  And it saved me from building it and then going, "Yep - that didn't work......"
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Watt

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2011, 04:50:54 PM »
Chris,

" The amount of flux determines the rpm/volt with specific winding, is all. "

Correct me if I'm wrong.  The specific flux has to do with the induced volt/rpm as well as current by way of copper density/temperature and quantity .  Volts per rpm could very well be the same no matter the diameter of the copper, but current will be effected by diameter of copper used. 

ChrisOlson

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2011, 05:10:17 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong.  The specific flux has to do with the induced volt/rpm as well as current by way of copper density/temperature and quantity .  Volts per rpm could very well be the same no matter the diameter of the copper, but current will be effected by diameter of copper used.  

I don't really understand what you're saying.  I go by rpm/volt (as opposed to volts/rpm) because it usually takes several rpm for each volt.

Let's say you have a specific winding and say it develops one volt for every 10 rpm.  If you reduce the flux in the air gap by increasing the air gap, putting in weaker magnets, or putting in smaller magnets, the voltage at the same rpm will drop.  And hence, you get more rpm's/volt.

The internal resistance will vary by copper temperature for sure (by a tiny amount).  And if you use bigger wire (cross section) you'll get less resistance for the same winding length than you will with smaller wire.  But I've never seen where copper density or temperature affects the air gap flux.

I have seen with an axial where there seems to be a limit to how much heat a stator will produce when it's shorted and I believe it has to do something weird to the air gap flux, like bend or distort it.  It's sort of like reactance limiting in an iron core stator, except different because the stator turns into an eddy brake when it's shorted.  I actually tried to burn up a stator in a ferrite gen with my little Honda engine driving a hydraulic pump and motor to turn the generator, and I couldn't get it to burn up with it shorted.  It got really dang hot, but it didn't get hot enough to burn any wires off in it or blow a coil.  I have to believe (but don't know for sure) that there's something strange going on with the flux in the gap in a situation like that.
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Chris
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 05:13:17 PM by ChrisOlson »

Watt

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2011, 06:10:34 PM »
Chris,

Yes, I did type volts/rpm.  What I should have typed was rpm/volts.  I recently learned this is called ' typonese '.  Sorry about the confussion.  As far as density and temperature, your calculated 495 watts will change your efficiency and just wondered ' quietly ' if that is considered in your 30 amps output.  Density should have been cross sectional area, not really meant to be " I guess copper purity ".  Sorry again. 
Without typing out every point regarding cross section/temperature, I was just pointing out that copper quantity and temperature do make a difference however temperature is only a small amount.  A 16 gauge wire with 45 turns could give the same voltage as a 13 gauge wire but clearly the current would be different.  That's all I was saying.  I was just wondering how you were able to get at your final values based on a turbine that has not been assembled and flown.  NO argument, as your notes on previous builds are a for sure way of deducing your outcome for this turbine.

I calculate 17.3 amps per phase with your 13awg wire, to me that says alot.  Seems to me that is about the limit for 13 awg insulated wire as it heats up and I am quite amazed that you were able to calculate these numbers and be for certain the copper will produce that current.  I'd be worried to try neos with this stator as a comparison.

As far as the flux comment, I was wondering, I guess, if you were able to calculate the flux passing through the copper and the flux's effect on that copper's guage in regards to current production.  I did not mean the flux would be determined by the copper or its density or quantity or temperature.  I know the larger wire sizes I've used, flux, to be exact neo's, have caused eddy currents.  More heat in the stator vs. actual power production.  I sure wish I could be as well documented as you and post my experiences.  I wouldn't have a clue on the proper terms. 


ChrisOlson

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2011, 06:47:49 PM »
I calculate 17.3 amps per phase with your 13awg wire, to me that says alot.  Seems to me that is about the limit for 13 awg insulated wire as it heats up and I am quite amazed that you were able to calculate these numbers and be for certain the copper will produce that current.  I'd be worried to try neos with this stator as a comparison.

The amount of max safe current for magnet wire in coils is given by the cross section squared times 4869.48.  13 AWG wire is .072" diameter.  So it's max safe current is 25.2 amps.  With three phase, each leg is basically handling the full load for 2/3's of the time.  So the max safe current delivered by this stator would be 37.2 amps on the DC side of the rectifier.  And that only until the max safe temperature for the insulation is reached in the winding at which point it needs to de-rated for temperature.

This stator would be really light duty for a 24 volt turbine whether it used neos or ferrites.  It would basically be a 1 kW max stator.  Except for the fact that it will run at around 80 volts at 1 kW.  At 80 DC volts and 1 kW output the current flow is only 12.5 amps.  At 2 kW and 90 volts the current flow is only 22 amps.  At 3 kW, 100 volts and 30 amps we're getting close to limit of the winding, but with plenty of room left for safety, and we're over the amp limit of what the controller can do so it needs to be furled, clipped, or otherwise controlled well before that.

That's the beauty of using MPPT with it.

And the other beauty of MPPT is that the little 3.2 meter rotor will actually make that much power when it's not running up against a "stall" problem and is allowed to run at or near TSR 6.5 all the time.  After doing a bunch of testing I have designed the power curve steps in the Classic to pull the TSR down starting at over 2 kW output to gradually reduce the efficiency of the rotor blades and generator and make it easier to control in high wind speeds.

Like I said before, this one of the coolest things I've ever played with because normally a 3.0-3.2 meter turbine on 24 volt is a 1 kW turbine.  My testing has shown that this thing can pretty easily develop a continuous 2.5 kW with MPPT in sustained good wind.  And that I can get some marginal gains even at lower wind speeds of 5 m/s that should make it give my larger 3.8 meter machines a run for their money in the midrange.  My bench testing has shown that it will not beat the larger machines at less than 5 m/s.  But OTOH, some guys that have tried MPPT claim that it does improve performance right from cut-in.  I'll find that out when I get it on the tower.

The real result that will make all the difference is not how many watts it makes at whatever wind speed - it will be how many kWh it produces day in and day out.  That's what gets the work done in your house.  Big power spikes are cool and lots of fun.  But you can't run your clothes washer and lights and TV and computers on power spikes.
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Chris

Watt

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2011, 07:01:49 PM »
It will be very interesting to watch as your experience with this turbine goes along.  I will be watching this thread as you update.  Thank you again.  Now get back to work. 

oztules

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2011, 07:07:59 PM »
Watt,
"As far as the flux comment, I was wondering, I guess, if you were able to calculate the flux passing through the copper and the flux's effect on that copper's gauge in regards to current production."

I think this is the cause for your difficulties. The flux and copper size does not determine current.

In any given circuit, it will be the voltage across that circuit divided by the impedance of that circuit that determines the current. In our case we pretend that the impedance is equal to the phase resistance... which makes it simple.

So it HAS to be the voltage differential over the circuit's resistive path that defines the upper limit of current in the circuit...... the copper thickness does not define the current.... only a clue to the expected losses. More current can be driven through any given resistive circuit, simply by pushing up the pressure..... ie volts.

It becomes important to us as the current through our circuit will increase with more voltage (proof copper thickness/flux is not the governor.... but voltage is). It however becomes problematic...... as the thinner the copper,  the higher the resistance, and the more voltage we lose across the circuit..... and as W=ExI then it follows our loses in the stator rise as we increase the current through the resistance. This leads to a voltage drop across the circuit, which when multiplied by the current moving through it, gives us our watts lost in the stator........ we then guess how many watts we can stand to lose in it without destroying it, and call that our upper current limit...... we stop the excessive voltage that will kill it with furling (hopefully).

The thickness of the copper only changes our resistance. Rpm/volt is a function of flux, turns and rpm.


In the real world there is some armature reaction, temp induced resistance variation in the copper, inductive reactances to the AC etc..... but for the neo ones, mostly just resistance will give you a good clue. Ferrite axials seem to exhibit some armature reactance of note (Chris could not burn it out on the test bed), and iron cored things are more likely current limited by reactance than worry about heat from resistive losses...... unless the magnets are very strong.....



................oztules


Flinders Island Australia

Watt

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2011, 07:20:27 PM »
Thanks Oz, Yep, still confused.  Time to do more reading and experimenting. 


Watt,
"As far as the flux comment, I was wondering, I guess, if you were able to calculate the flux passing through the copper and the flux's effect on that copper's gauge in regards to current production."

I think this is the cause for your difficulties. The flux and copper size does not determine current.

In any given circuit, it will be the voltage across that circuit divided by the impedance of that circuit that determines the current. In our case we pretend that the impedance is equal to the phase resistance... which makes it simple.

So it HAS to be the voltage differential over the circuit's resistive path that defines the upper limit of current in the circuit...... the copper thickness does not define the current.... only a clue to the expected losses. More current can be driven through any given resistive circuit, simply by pushing up the pressure..... ie volts.

It becomes important to us as the current through our circuit will increase with more voltage (proof copper thickness/flux is not the governor.... but voltage is). It however becomes problematic...... as the thinner the copper,  the higher the resistance, and the more voltage we lose across the circuit..... and as W=ExI then it follows our loses in the stator rise as we increase the current through the resistance. This leads to a voltage drop across the circuit, which when multiplied by the current moving through it, gives us our watts lost in the stator........ we then guess how many watts we can stand to lose in it without destroying it, and call that our upper current limit...... we stop the excessive voltage that will kill it with furling (hopefully).

The thickness of the copper only changes our resistance. Rpm/volt is a function of flux, turns and rpm.


In the real world there is some armature reaction, temp induced resistance variation in the copper, inductive reactances to the AC etc..... but for the neo ones, mostly just resistance will give you a good clue. Ferrite axials seem to exhibit some armature reactance of note (Chris could not burn it out on the test bed), and iron cored things are more likely current limited by reactance than worry about heat from resistive losses...... unless the magnets are very strong.....



................oztules




ChrisOlson

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2011, 11:52:35 PM »
Thanks Oz, Yep, still confused.

Don't get confused, Watt.  It'll all come to you one day.

That's what I'm hoping will happen to me.  I got the stator for this new turbine clamped firmly between the generator rotors and I'm hoping if I set in my cipherin' chair long enough and study it, it'll come to me how I'm going to build the stator support for it.    ;D





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Chris

ghurd

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2011, 12:15:20 AM »

The thickness of the copper only changes our resistance. Rpm/volt is a function of flux, turns and rpm.


Oz,
That's what I said, right?

And larger wire, with less resistance, means less heat.
And larger wire, with less resistance, with less heat, spread out over a larger area, results in lower temperatures.


I am wondering if the weak ferrite magnets, being so close together, are more effected by the field produced in the coils, resulting in more flux leakage?
(did that make sense?)
It would not take a whole lot of flux made in the coils to reflect back some flux from the ferrites, sending it to the neighbouring ferrite, right?
So... follow me because this is where it gets good.
As the amps increase, the flux linked in the coils decreases?
And as the temp increases, the resistance increases, and the currecnt decreases (kind of grasping at straws with that one).
Resulting in a somewhat self limiting PMA?
And That would make a machine more resistant to burning up coils, hence the test bed results,
But possibly at the risk of run-away?

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Flux

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Re: Ferrite Gen with a Classic 150
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2011, 04:31:21 AM »
"Thanks Oz, Yep, still confused.  Time to do more reading and experimenting.  "

Oz summed things up pretty well, I doubt that I can add much to help you understand.

Voltage is determined by flux, rotational speed and number of turns ( for a given configuration). Current depends on voltage and impedance ( Ohm's Law).

For an alternator on its own on short circuit the current will be the emf divided by the impedance and for axials you can virtually take impedance as being resistance.

For battery charging the current will be determined by the difference between emf ( open circuit volts) and battery volts/ impedance.

Size or section of copper is not directly implied but it is always related.  For a given number of turns, the thicker the wire the lower the resistance so it helps to use the thickest wire possible that you can get in and still get your number of turns. ( Ignore different forms of connection here or you will confuse yourself, think of a basic series winding with all coils in series).

What Chris has been saying is that the reduction of resistance is vital. Coil shape only has a fairly small effect on induced volts, but it has a lot of effect on resistance. These triangular coils seem to be the best compromise between induced volts and having minimum resistance. They don't make ideal use of all the flux of a rectangular magnet, but much of that is unusable in this case anyway as the magnets are crowed at the centre and you have excess leakage and no space to wind a coil. You end up using them very effectively as if they were sector shaped magnets. These arguments would not work with a radial design.

You can calculate output from first principles by working out your emf and then working out your winding resistance from the length of wire in the turns. If you have both then using the difference between emf and battery volts and the resistance will get you the current. (that works for the alternator alone but you still have to relate this to thew power in the wind and your prop characteristic to relate current to wind speed).

What Chris seems to have done over the years is do this for various coil shapes and magnet spacings and found the combination that has least resistance for a given emf.

Once you fail to link all the magnet flux ( holes smaller than magnets) then the emf has to be determined experimentally from test coils and this is where his experience and lots of detailled observations come in. Most of us were happy to do the calculation once for a given magnet layout and choose the best wire size and with neo and plenty of flux that was fine, when flux is in short supply thenthe resistance seems to become the dominant factor.

Can't see how this improves on what Oztules explained, bit sometimes looking from a different angle does help.

Flux