Forklift Batteries, Documented

[Revolutionary]

 Greetings all;
Over the last 7 or 8 years, I've been working on getting our house off of the grid. It's a 3200SF home, and one of the things we did was install (first) a set of 875AH batteries. Both 24V, in series to make 48VDC for connection to our Magnum Inverter. I bought another set, an 1105 AH set, and am using both, now.
I wrote a small article on forklift batteries, and put it on our website at <link removed> It's not a lot of information, just simple stuff on why I think forklift batteries give the most bang for the buck, and why they will last a long, long time.

Have fun;
Chris  

you need to have 50 posts to post links here usually specially links to your site were your selling something.

[thirteen]

Where could I read your short article? I looked but the big viris sitting in front of my computor didn't find a thing.

[whirlybird]

I now have 6 very large fork lift baterys these are charged to about 28v by 10 large solar panels I have had this set up for about 3 years now and can assure you that even though these batts were very well used when I got them they have performed extremely well.I am bad at the house keeping and have abused these batts that badly that any other type would have given up by now.Well they are still going storing and delivering power very reliably and I would never have any other type of batt.
I would postulate that a second hand in poor shape fork lift batt is far away better than a new deep cycle batt from all but the best batt manufacturers in the world.Keep your eyes open for these and grab them at almost any price you wont be dissapointed.
Good luck and have FUN.
Bob.B
 

[Revolutionary]

Whirlybird, I can't agree more. I have (2) sets of forklift batts, a 875 AH 48VDC set & a 1105 AH 48VDC set. They last forever with even a little maintenance....

My name is Chris Walsh, I am a Real Estate Broker in North Idaho. I can't place a link here, but if you PM me or do a google search you will find the link to the information I posted.
Chris

[nifeman]

To both whirlybird and Revolutionary.

Post after another 10 or so years and see who much battery capacity you have in them. The fact is that ALL lead acid batteries are made to self destruct from the first day you put a charge to them. Their battery chemistry cannot be changed and therefore the loss of battery capacity cannot be reversed. Sure, the shallower the usage the longer they last, but you WILL replace them sooner than later.

I wish you all the best as your industrial lead acids eat holes in your cloths, give off sulfuric acid fumes when you perform an equalize charge, takes two men to move them or more and will cost you a small fortune to replace once you start putting more energy into them they you get out of them. I have been keeping tabs on lead acid battery prices and even though the price of lead has been about $1.00 a pound for the last 10 years, lead acid battery prices have been going up an AVERAGE of 10% a year!

I assume you both both your batteries new? Not used?

[Bruce S]

nifeman;
I'm not certain, and I surely hope it isn't so.
BUT it looks like you're putting both of these guys down because they have LA based batteries instead of the Edison batteries.
Don't do this, it's rude and if you read his post , his batts are into 3 years of being used and still going strong.
WE must remember the amount of energy needed to go into those NiFe batteries versus what you have available.
I may have read your post wrong and if so then I'm wrong , but the part about eating holes and sulfuric acid fumes, just doesn't ring very nicely.
Also remember the fluid that goes into the NiFe batteries can be dangerous too.
It's good you are enthusiastic about them; but don't put others down for using what is available or even better, Recycling.
Cheers;
Bruce S
 

[XeonPony]

I second Bruse S's comment NiF batteries can not be beat but there is nothing at all wrong with LA, My LA batteries have don excellent over the many years I've had them, and even then I got em out of the garbage, even LA can be made to last very good long time when cared for correctly!

Would I rather a NiFe system? Yes but I have no problem with my LA system and fyi never a burnt hole in any of my cloathing!

[nifeman]

Bruce S and others,

Maybe some of you have NOT had holes in your cloths from sulfuric acid flumes. Consider yourself lucky. I am NOT putting people down for using lead acid cells, but to boast how long they can last when actually using them for over 7 years or so is questionable. I was saying get back to us in another 5 or 10 years see what your TRUE battery capacity will be in say 15 years from the time you put your cells in service on a DAILY basis.

I speak from EXPERIENCE in regards to holes in cloths. I have owned both flooded lead add batteries (Exide) and NiFE batteries and I prefer NiFe.

Yes ALL battery electrolyte is dangerous and should be dealt with proper clothing and protection, but the electrolyte in a NiFe cell will not eat holes in your cloths nor will it create corrosion in and around your battery room, plus the battery terminals will almost never have crud around the posts either. The corrosion and having to have a controlled overcharge is the main reason why lead acid flooded batteries are keep in a box and usually away from ones living space. I have seen more battery banks in crawl space and outdoor small sheets than in actual homes.

With a NiFE battery one can feel safe in putting the battery bank in a living space (protected posts of course) and thus keeping the battery bank at room temperature where it will perform much better than a having cold lead acid battery that is in a box in a basement or outside in a utility shed.

As far as recycling, you can recycle NiFE cells too, but with lead being at about $1.00 a punt and nickel about $7.00 a pound your "scrap value" of a nickel iron battery bank should be much higher.

[Bruce S]

nifeman;
I like your enthusiasm! and am glad to see you weren't going the other path .
With regards to experiences with LA batteries , I can certainly say yes I have up close experience with them from the old 6V ones for Ford 4N tractor types up to the two person lifter's for 24Vdc+ systems used in Military vehicles.
Plus hundreds of NiCd multi-celled batteries and have worked with wet-celled NiCd ones, they are my favorites since they can take abuse for years and come back smiling like a little puppy.

Of the people here who normally post about their battery packs, they generally have a good idea of their bank's storage capacity since most are off-grid and MUST know this.
I would not call this boasting but correct attention to detail.
Could you possibly come back and post in more detail your setup ( a user diary would be best or here if OP doesn't mind) age of batts, system voltage, charging schemes, etc.

have a look at XP's posts about his garbage batteries and all the fun he had, and he's only one of a good dozen.
The bigger problem for most is finding and affording the NiFe's

Knowledge is power, the more we know the better decisions we can make.
Cheers;
Bruce S

 

[BillBlake]

Hello Bruce and Group. I'm looking at cost and performance comparisons between Lead Acid and Ni-Fe Batteries.

There seems to be good strong things about the Nickel Iron Batteries however there also seems to be a tremendous
amount of misrepresentation as well. Some people may wind up getting hurt for some big money if not careful.

Changhong Batteries in China, making most of the Ni-Fe Cells sold in America today, is an excellent source of
more realistic information about the construction and true Limitations of current Ni-Fe technology.

Just add a .com after ChanghongBatteries

Then go to Products, then Nickel-Iron (Ni-Fe), then

Solar Ni-Fe cell catalogue.

Look at the Life Cycles Chart. This is AFTER Electrolyte Changes according to an actual

Changhong Ni-Fe Operator's Manual.

Then go to:  Pocket type Ni-Fe rechargeable battery

Check out the MSDS

Now we Know BeUtilityFree and Iron Edison Batteries are really only 20% Nickle.

If the junk man will believe even that much. All of a sudden reality strikes deep
as far as your money and what it's going into.
There are other Ni-Fe examples that may cost you big nowadays as well.

Changhong themselves will help you see the truth about their fine products.
It's not that I'm trying to be unkind. I'm just too old now to Live on Fairy Tales.

Need accurate info to make decent decisions on batteries that can run 20, 30 or more Thousands of Dollars.
Then with Electrolyte replacements (like for 41 of the NF800-S cells that I'm interested in) now running
into the low Thousands of Dollars - EACH TIME.

This since Changhong jacked the Lithium Hydroxide by 400% as of their Jan., 2008 Instruction Manual.

Old Bill has questions as to how often this Electrolyte REALLY has to be changed nowadays.
(Way separate Post)

Still think that I like the Ni-Fe technology for Special applications and should come to some conclusions about Ni-Fe soon.

Thank-you for all the years of Great Posts  :-)

Bill Blake

[XeonPony]

Bruce S and others,

Maybe some of you have NOT had holes in your cloths from sulfuric acid flumes. Consider yourself lucky. I am NOT putting people down for using lead acid cells, but to boast how long they can last when actually using them for over 7 years or so is questionable. I was saying get back to us in another 5 or 10 years see what your TRUE battery capacity will be in say 15 years from the time you put your cells in service on a DAILY basis.

I speak from EXPERIENCE in regards to holes in cloths. I have owned both flooded lead add batteries (Exide) and NiFE batteries and I prefer NiFe.

Yes ALL battery electrolyte is dangerous and should be dealt with proper clothing and protection, but the electrolyte in a NiFe cell will not eat holes in your cloths nor will it create corrosion in and around your battery room, plus the battery terminals will almost never have crud around the posts either. The corrosion and having to have a controlled overcharge is the main reason why lead acid flooded batteries are keep in a box and usually away from ones living space. I have seen more battery banks in crawl space and outdoor small sheets than in actual homes.

With a NiFE battery one can feel safe in putting the battery bank in a living space (protected posts of course) and thus keeping the battery bank at room temperature where it will perform much better than a having cold lead acid battery that is in a box in a basement or outside in a utility shed.

As far as recycling, you can recycle NiFE cells too, but with lead being at about $1.00 a punt and nickel about $7.00 a pound your "scrap value" of a nickel iron battery bank should be much higher.

Just sounds like to me you didn't put much effort into the LA instalation! Mine are right under me and used daily! improper cleaning and greasing is what cuases the crud, holes in cloathing is from poor handling practices.

That siad NiFe still wins hands down, but don't condem a batery type from bad handling fyi I been around La all my life so 20 years of experiance with them ontop of learning the physics of them and plenty of materials on proper implimentation of them in a system, fyi that is all 100% off grid experiance!

[Bruce S]

Gents;
One of the best things on this post is that NO ONE has gone down the name calling path, I am truly glad to see this.
However;
Let us move out of this post since it was originally about forklift batteries and have a separate discussion about the different battery Chemistries in the other posting.
The OP weathered a whole loft of angst in the early days of his posting , partly due on my part.
Cheers;
Bruce S   

[davesnafu]

I have to say my second hand forklift batteries have performed very well, purchased 8 years ago from a scrap yard, I have bottomed them out dozens of times and overcharged them, let them get low on water, you name it I have done it.
Our previous batteries bought new, Varta solar 230ah, bank of six to make 24v, lasted just 3 years, 2 of which were good, the last year was poor, then they dropped off a cliff, they had a lot more care than the traction cells.
As has been said, all LA batteries are trying to die from day one, but traction cells just take a long time to die.

[nifeman]

I would say that the only real competition to the nickel iron battery for home pawer systems is the 2V lead acid industrial fork lift battery bank.

In many cases such as your and others that have posted they can have a very long life i.e 15-20years and definitely do not need as much attention as a medium quality battery such as a L!6 type battery bank.

But each one of us using a battery bank has to look at the total picture of owning a battery bank, not just the initial costs. Cost wise the nickel iron battery bank and a high quality industrial fort lift lead acid battery bank are compatible in cost when comparing usable Ah. But lets say lead acid cells continue to go up at 10% a year as they have the past 10 years. If that continues and the nickel iron does not increase in price then the industrial lead acid and the nickel iron will cost about the same per usable AH. At that point then you have to take a much harder look at the nickel iron battery advantages such as lighter in weight, no sulfating, semi-transparent battery cases, no harm for overcharging and undercharging, etc.

That all said most people who do buy industrial fork lift that I know of do not buy new ones but "refurnished" ones that are traded in on a regular basis by fort lift users. Of corse that brings the prices down considerably. However, those type of deals are usually found near large cities so that limits the availability of them thus one reason why the L16 is so popular among off grid community.

[bob g]

i am late to the party, but better late than never i suppose


but....

so far i have read support for the edison cells, however i have not read
much about "charge" "discharge" efficiencies and "self discharge" issues with the technology.

have the chinese done something that dramatically improves these issues?

while it might be argued that efficiencies don't really matter with windpower, because we can just build more or bigger machines to do the charging, their are still questions in my mind with the iron batteries.

aside from the anecdotal claims of "they last a hundred years" much like lister engine's lasting a hundred thousand hours, the reality is much different. so i weight the lifespan differences between true heavy duty lead cells with that of the iron cells.

further i don't think a fair analysis can be made for or against the iron battery without taking all factors into account.

simply comparing amp/hrs vs years, is only a part of the story, or at least should only be taken on balance with all the other factors.

i some systems i would argue both for and against any battery technology, 

the only way i can see myself clear to taking on a set of iron batteries is if they became much more commonly available, made by a first world company, and were available for a hell of a lot less money retail.

then i might seriously consider them even with their efficiency issues, higher self discharge and other inherent concerns specific to their chemistry.

in fairness, not to rain on the chinese parade, but what happens if there is a trade embargo, or tariffs, or some other political problem?  what happens if the importer goes "boobs" up and files bankruptcy?

at least i would feel a lot better if there were at least a half dozen "stocking" importers of these batteries. and i would feel even better if the manufacture was decentralized a bit as well, maybe a plant in taiwan, or some other country within the region?

so anyone want to address any of these concerns?

bob g